Unholy DK stat parity: Minions included!

90 Draenei Death Knight
13225
So we, the players, need to make threads about it during betas. Well, I mean, we did that, but we need to be louder about it. And make more threads.

Kind of like how Blood went this far into the expansion without QoL changes, because we didn't make enough beta threads or something. Just gotta be louder during beta.


There will be more threads because all the really smart and good ones will be in beta; Not just the handful last time.
Edited by Pennyrush on 10/28/2011 3:50 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Death Knight
13225
10/28/2011 03:39 PMPosted by Slant
Blood didn't just need QoL changes. DK tanks were fine in T11 for most single-target boss encounters. They only really fell behind in T12H when paladins and warriors managed to stack enough avoidance to become unhittable. At that point DKs could be 2-shot, which made them markedly inferior (and honestly unusable) tanks.


They didn't really stack avoidance. They are stacking mastery to hit CTC. The good Paladins/Warriors take 0% unmitigated hits, while DKs take 50-60%. That's the real difference in the live game.

But this is off topic!
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90 Draenei Death Knight
12850
Blood didn't just need QoL changes. DK tanks were fine in T11 for most single-target boss encounters. They only really fell behind in T12H when paladins and warriors managed to stack enough avoidance to become unhittable. At that point DKs could be 2-shot, which made them markedly inferior (and honestly unusable) tanks.


Man, it's a good thing Blood Legion, one of the top WoW guilds in the WORLD doesn't use a blood DK to tank every HM in FL...oh wait.

Back on topic, to some of you saying that the 5% buff to Unholy Might is a direction damage increase, sorry, but that isn't the way it works. It's a 5% buff to strength. The only thing that increases damage by a flat 5% is..wait for it..a 5% damage buff.

Having played dps'd as a DK since the beginning of Wrath, I am disappointed with the state of DK dps in general. Your choices in spec (and playstyle) are either 1 spec that relies HEAVILY on several procs (frost) or one spec the relies heavily on buff management and a proc (Unholy).

Both playstyles are fun to an extent, but I am a little tired of hearing "Unholy Single Target is fine. AoE needs buffed. Simcraft said so." Here is the problem with Simcraft numbers. It's in an ideal environment. No one really pays attention to this, but most of the time, when giving out numbers, sights like EJ et al give numbers based on a "Patchwerk" style encounter, with ideal proc rates on talents/trinkets, etc etc.

No one really pays attention to helter-skelter numbers, but they are there. That is the only time you will actually see Unholy outperform Frost. This is for obvious reasons, such as stronger diseases and pet damage.

Here is the true problem with all this, you can say that single target is fine, which to a certain extent it is. Unholy (in my own personal testing) is about 1k-1.5k (1.04%-1.07%) behind Frost in practice. The problem is, as haste and weapon speed scales with upgrades/raid size, Unholy falls farther behind.

Another big issue is that most people don't play Unholy in a raid setting. Most of you (after a cursory glance over your armory and guilds WoL pages) haven't played unholy in a long time. This means that you are using numbers based on Simcraft, which at times can be flawed or raidbots, which if you look at the data they are pulling from, can be skewed based on bugged logs being uploaded or people starting logs late in a fight.

The real issues facing unholy are things like Matron said. Crit and mastery being applied to ghouls AND the fact that the only way to ensure that your gargoyle does the right attack, is to "twist" him.

Another big issue is SS damage in general. It is nowhere near the damage 1 OB does, even if you add in SS* damage. Anytime that an AOE spell (DnD) should be used over a single target attack (SS), there is obviously something wrong, imo. Also, the reason why unholy has a ramp up time is a two-fold problem. First, the classes mechanics (read: RotFC) and trinket procs hinder burst damage out the gate. Secondly, to add to that frustration, Unholy is based around Disease/DC/DnD damage, which is only does it's best damage from..you guessed it..having the most strength you can at any given time.

*Edit: Meant to say: "...even if you add in SS Shadow Damage portion."
Edited by Tiræl on 10/28/2011 4:20 PM PDT
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90 Undead Death Knight
11080
10/28/2011 03:20 PMPosted by Magdalena
I'm curious about one of your statements however: "It's likely that Unholy DKs will still not value crit as much as other secondary stats, even with the bug fixed."


Well, thinking about it, we'd have to take the average % of our damage that our ghoul+gargoyle makes up in any given fight and then increase the crit stat value on that percentage.

Lets say the ghoul+gargoyle = "X"% of our damage.
Lets say the stat weight for crit is "Y" currently.

((X/100) * Y) + Y = New Crit stat weight



In the Acherus channel, we'd estimated that Crit would eclipse at least Mastery with this change. It wouldn't go anywhere near Haste or Hit, but it'd still move up the chain slightly.

Did your statement refer to the value of Crit with regards to ALL secondary stats, or only Mastery?
If we were wrong, we'd definitely like to know so that we can see if we made any errors


I think he meant that it wouldnt become the MOST attractive secondary stat, but it would be improved. My thought is that it will be near equal with mastery, if not a bit ahead, and it will create a larger gap between it and expertise stat values.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
Contagion: In addition, has a 25/50% chance to grant 1 stack of Shadow Infusion when a disease or Unholy Blight deal a critical strike.

Shadow Infusion: Now stacks 3 times for 10% damage, up from 5 stacks at 6%.

Glyph of Scourge Strike: Increases the Shadow damage portion of your Scourge Strike by 60%, up from 30%, but reduces the healing absorb effect of Necrotic Strike by 50%.

Target swapping, addressed.
Scourge Strke damage, now doesn't suck with no impact on PvP
Significant ramp up, addressed
Edited by Bullettime on 10/28/2011 4:25 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
5190
@Tirael,

Please don't take this as an insult, but your personal testing doesn't really mean much due to its small sample size. Unholy actually performs closer to its simulated patchwerk performance than frost because the ghoul ignores encounter mechanics.

The really bizarre thing is that you agree. In your testing, unholy is only ~1% behind. So why the wall o' text?

Anyway, frost used to sim dramatically better than it performed in game due to several reasons. First, the penalty for using killing machine on frost strike rather than obliterate used to be much larger. Obliterate was nerfed and frost strike buffed, so it makes less difference now. Secondly (and this is a big one) runic empowerment used to be flat-out terrible, with a third of its procs wasted on blood runes. Frost no longer has blood runes, so RE (while still mathematically inferior to runic corruption) works fine.

You're right that a lot less people actually play unholy, but that only depresses its numbers and proves the point you didn't want to make.

"Everybody" says that unholy's single-target isn't the issue for a reason. We haven't all drunk the kool-aid. We're just, well, right.

Edit: FYI, the gargoyle melee bug has also been fixed on the 4.3 PTR. Pretty good patch for unholy, all-told. It'll still have weak AE, but it looks like it may end up the definitive single-target boss spec for DKs in Dragon Soul.

Also, the DK tank in Blood Legion you're referring to is Riggnaros, who produced an extensive series of posts in the PTR forums that convinced Blizzard to buff DK tanks, including a screenshotted log of his character being 2-shotted on Rag heroic. You might want to reconsider using him as your example of why DK tanks are OK in T12H, because he doesn't agree.
Edited by Slant on 10/28/2011 4:44 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Death Knight
8315
10/28/2011 02:27 PMPosted by Kaivax
We didn’t want to make things awkward by asking for the question to be repeated more than once.


Asking and making sure the actual question is being answered is more important, awkwardness be damned! *Raises fist*
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90 Draenei Death Knight
12850
@Tirael,

etc


Sorry the wall of text wasn't clear. I was trying to state that in my own testing, I was able to find Unholy closer to Frost's damage in general. However, depending on raid size and other factors, the disparity can get larger, in favor of frost.

The last paragraph was me stating what I thought were problems that contributed to this and my agreement with Matron on what she asked about at Blizzcon.

I am aware that Blood DKs aren't "Ok", but they are still used by some people. It doesn't mean they are "Ok", but it doesn't mean they are completely useless, which was what I got from your statement of:

10/28/2011 03:39 PMPosted by Slant
and honestly unusable


As far as my datas, a lot of my data was based off using a conjunction of Recount/Simcraft/WoL parse averages to come up with those percentages. Sorry for the slightly confusing post.
Edited by Tiræl on 10/28/2011 4:54 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
5190
It's no problem. I can see how you could get to that conclusion-- unholy is way behind frost in 10man content, because frost brings better raidbuffs. Not to imply that 8% spell damage isn't important, but several other specs and non-BM hunter pets bring it also. You really need to look at 25man parses, because they include all the raidbuffs, and should probably look at hardmodes for everything except for Ragnaros, because most serious guilds are 6/7.

My unusable comment really applied to Rag 25H only. It's only at the tail end of 25H T12 (according to Riggnaros, actually) that blood DKs really fall behind. If you can be 2-shot, you're not a usable tank. But they would have also been 2-shot in 10man normal-mode Dragon Soul, he posted logs of that as well.
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90 Human Death Knight
10680
To be clear -- the bug preventing minions from inheriting crit from the DK has been fixed for 4.3.


Reckon you could make 2h frost viable against dual wield again for 4.3 too? Pretty please?
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90 Orc Death Knight
8960
To be clear -- the bug preventing minions from inheriting crit from the DK has been fixed for 4.3.


Reckon you could make 2h frost viable against dual wield again for 4.3 too? Pretty please?


One step at a time grasshopper.
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85 Orc Warrior
9220
10/28/2011 02:27 PMPosted by Kaivax
Our point at Blizzcon was this -- we have a responsibility to adjust stat values as little as possible from patch to patch, because if we swing them wildly, players then feel like they have to constantly adjust their stats (through gems and reforging). It's likely that Unholy DKs will still not value crit as much as other secondary stats, even with the bug fixed.
So you're saying that, aside from expansions, you will not take steps to correct stat weight issues because apparently people dislike broken stat weights less than reforging/regemming? That's exceptionally aggravating, since my concerns regarding stat weights were blown off during the beta with a "you don't know that" and "we can always fix it later". Turns out, I did know what I was talking about, and no you can't just fix it later.

Reforging/regemming is annoying, but seeing garbage stats all over my tier gear is infuriating.
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90 Undead Mage
14225
we have a responsibility to adjust stat values as little as possible from patch to patch


You actually have a responsibility to balance the specs in both PvE and PvP, but you sure don't seem as committed to that - it can't possibly have anything to do with the fact that it might require you to actually do some work.

Do you guys even believe yourselves anymore?
Edited by Frostvein on 10/28/2011 6:35 PM PDT
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85 Goblin Death Knight
6415
10/28/2011 06:24 PMPosted by Siguror
Reforging/regemming is annoying, but seeing garbage stats all over my tier gear is infuriating.


Not as infuriating as it must be for casters with a legendary being beaten by warriors on dps. Secondary stat balance means absolutely nothing when you are doing top dps as a result of all your stats combined. Duh.
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85 Orc Warrior
9220
10/28/2011 07:26 PMPosted by Córt
Not as infuriating as it must be for casters with a legendary being beaten by warriors on dps. Secondary stat balance means absolutely nothing when you are doing top dps as a result of all your stats combined. Duh.
Arms != Fury, bro.
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85 Human Death Knight
11210
10/28/2011 06:24 PMPosted by Siguror
Our point at Blizzcon was this -- we have a responsibility to adjust stat values as little as possible from patch to patch, because if we swing them wildly, players then feel like they have to constantly adjust their stats (through gems and reforging). It's likely that Unholy DKs will still not value crit as much as other secondary stats, even with the bug fixed.
So you're saying that, aside from expansions, you will not take steps to correct stat weight issues because apparently people dislike broken stat weights less than reforging/regemming? That's exceptionally aggravating, since my concerns regarding stat weights were blown off during the beta with a "you don't know that" and "we can always fix it later". Turns out, I did know what I was talking about, and no you can't just fix it later.

Reforging/regemming is annoying, but seeing garbage stats all over my tier gear is infuriating.


I'm sorry to say but I am on the devs for this one. Imagine being like DKs were back in wrath. Literally every single patch caused an entire change in what type of gear was optimal. We had DW stacking crit, 2H stacking Haste, 2H stacking Arp, sometimes you went for expertise cap, other times you just ignored it and stacked evertything else.

I'll be honest . . . I don't miss the rollercoaster. HOWEVER! I do agree that gradual changes implemented over time are the proper way to fix broken mechanics causing wild discrepancies in stat values.

EG. Imagine Warriors hate Haste. So one patch reduces a mechanic that affects the top stat slightly, next one bumps up a mechanic that values haste. Keep that cycle up and you will get to where you want to be.
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100 Human Priest
13885
I'll be honest . . . I don't miss the rollercoaster. HOWEVER! I do agree that gradual changes implemented over time are the proper way to fix broken mechanics causing wild discrepancies in stat values...


Oh God... it seemed like every other tusday they wiped out my DKs talent points and screwed up half my abilities.... I was like: "DARN YOU BLIZZ! IT'S TUESDAY AND I HAVE TO RAID IN AN HOUR!!!"
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85 Troll Death Knight
0
10/28/2011 07:26 PMPosted by Córt
Reforging/regemming is annoying, but seeing garbage stats all over my tier gear is infuriating.


Not as infuriating as it must be for casters with a legendary being beaten by warriors on dps. Secondary stat balance means absolutely nothing when you are doing top dps as a result of all your stats combined. Duh.


That has no bearing on what he's saying. It's something that more specs than Fury suffer from, and certainly weaker specs.

I don't see what advantage throwing a straw man argument out there will net you when the point he's trying to make is perfectly valid and the resolution of which would benefit the game as a whole. You're basically just refuting for the sake of trolling a warrior.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5190
10/28/2011 06:24 PMPosted by Siguror
my concerns regarding stat weights were blown off during the beta with a "you don't know that" and "we can always fix it later". Turns out, I did know what I was talking about, and no you can't just fix it later.

Yarp. DKs had the same experience. Consider posted about haste and GCD-locking during the Cataclysm beta on the beta forums. He was very detailed and clear, and was told that they'd fix it if it became a problem later. They didn't.

It all comes back to the dev team preferring to push off issues with things like scaling until the future, figuring they can always address it after it becomes a real problem rather than a theoretical one. But then when it turns out that the problem was real, they have other things to worry about. It's already most of the way through the expansion, and... you know... "$NEXT_EXPANSION will fix it".

But it never does.
Edited by Slant on 10/28/2011 9:24 PM PDT
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85 Goblin Death Knight
6415
10/28/2011 09:09 PMPosted by Nijeak
That has no bearing on what he's saying. It's something that more specs than Fury suffer from, and certainly weaker specs.


And what i'm saying is there's absolutely no reason for secondary stats to have equal footing. In fact, in my opinion (and quite obviously the opinion of the devs, at least so far) the game is made more interesting by secondary stats having different weighting. It enhances the sub-game of gear itemisation, reforging, etc.

All that matters is the final dps numbers. If they are achieved with hit and expertise caps, haste soft caps, and vary based on encounters then all the better. It makes the game more interesting.

Take this unholy change. In BIS gear for unholy with this change crit now surpases mastery, and is now almost on par with haste. That will require a lot of fun reworking. Mastery is now the offically crap stat. On a piece with crit and mastery, it will now be better to reforge mastery into haste and keep the crit. And that change will have obvious affects on choosing offset pieces, favouring crit/haste over mastery/haste.

Or compare unholy with frost. Frost has a soft haste cap, where the stat weight drops from about 1.9 to rapidly fall below mastery and crit. There are two hit caps to work with. And in BIS gear the stat weightings look much like 1.6 mastery, 1.5 crit, 1.35 haste, and hit to spell cap at 1.6, falling to about 1.25 over cap. That's actually pretty boring (and a dire sign of poor scaling, if we didn't benefit so much from weapon dps), but thankfully before BIS gear it's more like 1.9 haste, 1.6 mastery, 1.4 crit, giving a clear direction on ideal stats.

It gives choice, and something to aim for. A valor piece may have suboptimal secondary stat itemisation, but it's easy to get. So you take it as an upgrade, and aim for that BIS to drop. If all secondary stat weights were the same then there's no fun in gearing, and nothing to aim for. It's a *good* thing that it's there. Only the lazy think otherwise.
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