A Treatise On Bluetip Threshers

85 Dwarf Hunter
5010
Foury and Polenzsky have the right of things.

For those who never experienced old AV, it is best understood as a mini-game. Alterac Valley took hours to complete most matches, and without a raid leader/general guiding your team, it could feel like you were being inexorably crushed by the opposing army. ...


Hours? Try days. And may the twisting nether have mercy on your soul if your side sucks and you want your IBS.
Edited by Duradin on 10/27/2011 8:23 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2305
Foury and Polenzsky have the right of things.

For those who never experienced old AV, it is best understood as a mini-game. Alterac Valley took hours to complete most matches, and without a raid leader/general guiding your team, it could feel like you were being inexorably crushed by the opposing army. ...


Hours? Try days. And may the twisting nether have mercy on your soul if your side sucks and you want your IBS.


Back then players were more organized and skilled, AV only took 1 hour+ after the first few month it was released.Players work together to summon the elite npcs and it gives a huge advantage when pushing especially if you summon them all at the same time
4 Draenei Shaman
0
I had several AV matches end in about ten minutes this past AV Weekend because both Alliance and Horde would skip the first two bunkers/towers, drop the two closest to the boss and take the graveyard. Before the towers/bunkers would even fall they would start in on Van and Drek and the winner was whoever had the most firepower.

No pvp happened, except for the Horde Death Knights who would hide behind Drek and Death Grip whoever peaked around the corner into Drek. Those were the majority if not all of the HKs gained on both sides.

Horde/Alliance would win or lose with a mere 20 HKs or less, depending on if anyone broke off to harass the other faction and how many people got Death Gripped into Drek.

I can see why they wouldn't want to readd the whole epic hours long battles because of the mindset of a lot of pvp players these days, but for AV to be degraded into this?
85 Human Rogue
3370
I'm still a bit bummed about the bluetip threshers. They ate my face so many times while I was leveling this character. I was eager to hit 85 for many reasons, not the least of which was vengeance.

Suddenly, while I was level 80, they were easy to kill. There was no joy or challenge in it. Vengeance just isn't as tasty when you can kill things with one shot.
85 Dwarf Hunter
5010

Back then players were more organized and skilled, AV only took 1 hour+ after the first few month it was released.Players work together to summon the elite npcs and it gives a huge advantage when pushing especially if you summon them all at the same time


Your rose colored glasses must be the legendary ones.
85 Orc Warrior
9345
Foury and Polenzsky have the right of things.

For those who never experienced old AV, it is best understood as a mini-game. Alterac Valley took hours to complete most matches, and without a raid leader/general guiding your team, it could feel like you were being inexorably crushed by the opposing army. ...


Hours? Try days. And may the twisting nether have mercy on your soul if your side sucks and you want your IBS.


Good thing that marks no longer exist now isnt it.

85 Human Mage
0
Non-magical voice:
But Foury, what did actually happen to the Bluetip Thresher?


Bluetip Threshers had their level reduced from 85 to 15.
85 Human Mage
0
10/27/2011 08:23 AMPosted by Duradin
Hours? Try days. And may the twisting nether have mercy on your soul if your side sucks and you want your IBS.


This is why they changed AV to be short in the first place -- Players were required to farm it for Marks of Honor but it was a much longer BG than the others. Instead of removing or reducing the Marks requirement, Blizzard instead decided to nerf the tar out of AV.

Players didn't have the choice to play AV or not if they wanted gear.

Of course, now, players don't have the option to play a long game for PvP's sake.
90 Troll Shaman
13965
Aberzombie penned the most insightful WoW-related post I have read in many a long month.

-Lakshmi, Daughter of the Ivory Swan
I am Aedric Storm. I am Jessica Tallianos. I am still alive.
85 Orc Warrior
9345
I'm over age 50 and have played "RPG" games of various sorts (pen and paper as well as computer based) for many years. In my experience there is an inexorable pattern to every successful game. It follows the same basic guideline as The Peter Principle: "in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence", meaning that employees tend to be promoted until they reach a position at which they cannot work competently. It was formulated by Dr. Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull in their 1969 book The Peter Principle, a humorous treatise which also introduced the "salutary science of hierarchiology."

My corellary for "every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence" is "every successful game tends to expand to the point of unplayability." I could rattle off the names of numerous games I've played over the years that are no longer on the market, not because they were fail but because they succeeded and grew and choked themselves to death with their attempt to cater to too many.

WoW is no exception. It's success is phenomenal, it's growth and longevity inspiring, but it too walks the paths of "The Peter Principle". Unfortunately, there is no good solution. Should the game continue evolving, the core base that made it the success it is will drop away and the guiding fervor of those players will be lost to everyone who follows. That will lead to a "dumbing down" so severe that it becomes unattractive to everyone. Should it fail to evolve, contintuing to cater to those core players and ignoring the larger potential of customers unenticed, it leads to ossification and (like the dinosaurs) eventual extinction in favor of something newer and better; more fit for the changed environment.

I see a possible two-prong solution but it will require both sides to agree and act.

Prong One: The Developers... ubiquitous and enigmatic. The people responsible for creating and maintaining the game in all its forms. They are not jsut the programmers, but also those who make the decisions on what to program (management of various sorts). They need to get a better grip on the above-mentioned "Principle" as it relates to game growth/change, do a better job of listening to the people who helped them make the game such a great success, and stop catering to the whiney minority who want everything nerfed to death for their amusement.

Prong Two: The Players... dedicated and demanding. The people responsible for recognizing the game's potential and availing themselves of what it offers in its many facets. They need to do a better job of relating their desires to "The Devs", putting it in calm, mature, factual formats that show what they want in a way that "success blinded" businessmen can understand and react to positively. Temper tantrums, here on the forums, in game, or anywhere else are counter productive and tend to turn The Dev's eyes and ears away. To better promote what is desired from the game "the community" also needs to do a better job of policing itself, quashing "trolls", and generally stop feeding the negativity of the "dispossessed minority". Be calm and factual, brief, mature and businesslike and you will have more impact. But the players also need to recognize that The Devs have a handicap called inertia. It has many forms but mostly it is the time required to examine and idea for viability, and develop it in a useful way before giving it to us. The players need more patience and understanding with this handicap because The Dev's can't avoid it. It is part of the very foundation of their world and cannot be circumvented any more than we can circumvent gravity or death.

I'm not saying "WoW is dead" or "WoW is dying", I'm just saying I'm seeing much of the same general pattern I've seen with numerous games in the past and I'm pointing out what I think may be a way to head off the otherwise inevitable.

Group together and stop the in-fighting. Yeah, we may be factioned within game, but that is for the atmospher of play. This subject isn't play. Stop the faction friction everywhere else. Get together with each other and The Devs and it can be "fixed". Short of that I have no answers.


This should be passed on to the Dev team,
85 Goblin Priest
8655
How about un-nerfing fun in a system not even implemented yet?

Transmogging is about looking the way YOU want to. Tell me: is there any real advantage to making an invisible item not useable? How about head piece items, which can be turned off to show a naked head ANYWAY?

Best of all, since when do players look and study the kind of gear an enemy has before attacking them? As opposed to the multitudes of addons which display a symbol for their class, or the built in class systems.

Blizz, you don't want people cheating in your precious arenas using transmogging? Don't allow it in arenas. Simple as that. Transmogged items are unequippable in arenas. Problem solved.

In your efforts to silence the whiners, you've made Warcraft 3 back into palette swap Warcraft 2.
85 Goblin Priest
8655
Also, class quests. There is nothing in the game to make you feel like ANYTHING except a member of the horde or alliance anymore. Outside the start area, you don't even feel like you're race: you're just a palette swap soldier.
85 Human Mage
0
Ah yes, class quests. Another formerly awesome thing that we just don't have any more.

There was this one mage quest to get Polymorph: Pig where you would go around sheeping naga, and then they would explode into a whole flock of mini-sheep, and you would have to AoE them down.

Good times.
85 Human Mage
0
10/27/2011 10:10 PMPosted by Renue
Transmogging is about looking the way YOU want to.


I have a similar issue with the lack of caster swords in PvP. My only choice is between a boring staff or a crappy dagger, and I can't rock the sweet mage-with-a-sword look like I used to be able to.
1 Tauren Druid
0
Wow, Foury, thank you very much for this thread. It says a lot of the things I've been thinking a lot better than I've been able to put them. Personally I'm more on the PvE side than PvP these days, though I certainly remember, with fondness, the Old Days of doing AV, when I was more PvPcentric. Now I just want the difficult PvE dungeons, BC-level heroic difficulty, and raids that are hard but rewarding. And if that means separate, optional dungeons/raids, fine with me. The nerfs to the difficulty of WoW and epicness and feel of individuality and choice are killing my drive to keep on playing. I heard about the challenge modes coming with MoP and was excited. Then I heard that the heroics will be on level with Wrath, and I'm starting to regret my year subscription commitment.

Again, thank you Foury. I really hope there's some devs reading this thread.

(And if they are, dailies can stop being a central theme of the game, thanks!)

Edit: I also 'liked' both your opening posts and Aberzombie's, and for good measure I requested sticky -- not to get a blue's attention but because I REALLY feel like this should be stickied, so others can see it and show their support for this as well. I hope this gets the attention it deserves, from other players and from devs.
Edited by Mewse on 10/28/2011 10:06 PM PDT
85 Human Mage
0
10/28/2011 09:44 PMPosted by Mewse
Personally I'm more on the PvE side than PvP these days,


Thanks for weighing in. I pretty much only participate in PvP nowadays, so its nice to hear from someone on the other side of things. I've been trying to get them to bring back Classic AV for a while now (4-5 years!) but it's really just a symptom of a larger systemic issue. I hope I did a reasonable job addressing that problem, and that the Blues give some thought toward incorporating old innovations along with their shiny new ones.
1 Tauren Druid
0
10/28/2011 10:02 PMPosted by Foury
Personally I'm more on the PvE side than PvP these days,


Thanks for weighing in. I pretty much only participate in PvP nowadays, so its nice to hear from someone on the other side of things. I've been trying to get them to bring back Classic AV for a while now (4-5 years!) but it's really just a symptom of a larger systemic issue. I hope I did a reasonable job addressing that problem, and that the Blues give some thought toward incorporating old innovations along with their shiny new ones.
I feel you're very on point, and as anecdotal as this is, I've supported the idea of bringing back old AV for years too, and would probably PvP more if it was back because of the epic feel of it. Let people have the option at least. There really is no harm in it.
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