A Treatise On Bluetip Threshers

1 Tauren Druid
0
10/29/2011 07:23 PMPosted by Foury
Would said letter-writing campaign be solely for PvP interests? Because I'm on board with helping, any change to stop the way things have been sliding, and if it's best to aim for one target at a time that's cool with me. But as I've said before, I think your post applies equally well to all things PvE as it does to PvP.


I agree that this issue is exceptionally broad, and hate to marginalize PvE issues, but I think the campaign should focus on AV as a clear, simple goal. If the campaign is successful, it will set a precedent for future changes.
That's what I was wondering. I'm still all for and will be monitoring the thread. As for scaling instances, I've been all for that for years. I'd have loved to run an 80 Scholo and it not be a heroic revamp, but the original scholo, just beefier. Before any of this redoing of old instances for heroics I also felt it would be cool if Blizz redid a raid every (or every few) expansions. Still keep the old raid available, mind you, but have its level selectable via an instance portal inside the instance.

Excessive opinion area because it's morning: Mainly my idea for this was Karazhan, because of the lore behind it and because the lore behind it indicates it isn't a static building. Every raid could be a completely different tower, and you could actually see the storyline of one of Azeroth's most important buildings progress every single expansion and it not be rerunning the same raid with the same bosses every new level cap.
85 Undead Priest
1240
10/27/2011 02:34 AMPosted by Foury
Just because the majority wants something, doesn't mean that needs to be the only option.


Powerful words dude. Thanks for your post, I enjoyed reading it.
85 Undead Priest
1240
I'm over age 50 and have played "RPG" games of various sorts (pen and paper as well as computer based) for many years. In my experience there is an inexorable pattern to every successful game. It follows the same basic guideline as The Peter Principle: "in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence", meaning that employees tend to be promoted until they reach a position at which they cannot work competently. It was formulated by Dr. Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull in their 1969 book The Peter Principle, a humorous treatise which also introduced the "salutary science of hierarchiology."

My corellary for "every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence" is "every successful game tends to expand to the point of unplayability." I could rattle off the names of numerous games I've played over the years that are no longer on the market, not because they were fail but because they succeeded and grew and choked themselves to death with their attempt to cater to too many.

WoW is no exception. It's success is phenomenal, it's growth and longevity inspiring, but it too walks the paths of "The Peter Principle". Unfortunately, there is no good solution. Should the game continue evolving, the core base that made it the success it is will drop away and the guiding fervor of those players will be lost to everyone who follows. That will lead to a "dumbing down" so severe that it becomes unattractive to everyone. Should it fail to evolve, contintuing to cater to those core players and ignoring the larger potential of customers unenticed, it leads to ossification and (like the dinosaurs) eventual extinction in favor of something newer and better; more fit for the changed environment.

I see a possible two-prong solution but it will require both sides to agree and act.

Prong One: The Developers... ubiquitous and enigmatic. The people responsible for creating and maintaining the game in all its forms. They are not jsut the programmers, but also those who make the decisions on what to program (management of various sorts). They need to get a better grip on the above-mentioned "Principle" as it relates to game growth/change, do a better job of listening to the people who helped them make the game such a great success, and stop catering to the whiney minority who want everything nerfed to death for their amusement.

Prong Two: The Players... dedicated and demanding. The people responsible for recognizing the game's potential and availing themselves of what it offers in its many facets. They need to do a better job of relating their desires to "The Devs", putting it in calm, mature, factual formats that show what they want in a way that "success blinded" businessmen can understand and react to positively. Temper tantrums, here on the forums, in game, or anywhere else are counter productive and tend to turn The Dev's eyes and ears away. To better promote what is desired from the game "the community" also needs to do a better job of policing itself, quashing "trolls", and generally stop feeding the negativity of the "dispossessed minority". Be calm and factual, brief, mature and businesslike and you will have more impact. But the players also need to recognize that The Devs have a handicap called inertia. It has many forms but mostly it is the time required to examine and idea for viability, and develop it in a useful way before giving it to us. The players need more patience and understanding with this handicap because The Dev's can't avoid it. It is part of the very foundation of their world and cannot be circumvented any more than we can circumvent gravity or death.

I'm not saying "WoW is dead" or "WoW is dying", I'm just saying I'm seeing much of the same general pattern I've seen with numerous games in the past and I'm pointing out what I think may be a way to head off the otherwise inevitable.

Group together and stop the in-fighting. Yeah, we may be factioned within game, but that is for the atmospher of play. This subject isn't play. Stop the faction friction everywhere else. Get together with each other and The Devs and it can be "fixed". Short of that I have no answers.


Amazing read. I hope this reaches the developers.
85 Tauren Paladin
5310
Exactly. It's all about choice.

We can choose to run a quick dungeon, or no dungeons at all.
We can choose to play a quick skirmish battleground, or no battlegrounds at all.


Just because the majority wants something, doesn't mean that needs to be the only option.


When you take limited resources into account (funds, time [probably the big one in Blizzard's case]), you first must cater to the majority if you are going to be successful. Would it be awesome to have another long BG like AV 1.0 back in the game? Yes, I would like it. Labyrinth-esque dungeons? Definitely. That said, I would not like it if they had to cut other things just to bring something back that satisfies, what is now anyway, a very small niche of the playerbase.
90 Orc Hunter
9465
Exactly. It's all about choice.

We can choose to run a quick dungeon, or no dungeons at all.
We can choose to play a quick skirmish battleground, or no battlegrounds at all.


Just because the majority wants something, doesn't mean that needs to be the only option.


When you take limited resources into account (funds, time [probably the big one in Blizzard's case]), you first must cater to the majority if you are going to be successful. Would it be awesome to have another long BG like AV 1.0 back in the game? Yes, I would like it. Labyrinth-esque dungeons? Definitely. That said, I would not like it if they had to cut other things just to bring something back that satisfies, what is now anyway, a very small niche of the playerbase.


This argument is completely negated by one smple thing.

Pokemon.
10 Tauren Priest
575
Variety is the spice of life. Linear bad, many forks good.
90 Draenei Warrior
13925
Another quality thread by Foury. I wish you worked for Blizzard. Some excellent posts in here, hopefully it does not pass by unnoticed. Also I <3 you! :3
85 Human Mage
0
10/30/2011 10:19 AMPosted by Missandei
Variety is the spice of life. Linear bad, many forks good.


As somebody once said, "Variety is life."

And I love forks ; )


_________________________________________________________________________
"A Treatise on Bluetip Threshers"
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3424907465
"A 'Brief' History of AV"
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2952885503
90 Orc Hunter
9465
And as always the OP is highly upated, cant ignore us forever!
85 Human Mage
0
10/30/2011 10:14 PMPosted by Vaelkyri
And as always the OP is highly upated, cant ignore us forever!


I stopped playing WoW for a month for a variety of real-life reasons. When I came back a few weeks ago I was pleasantly surprised to find the threads I had started were still being discussed.

Pretty much every week for the last 4-5 years a thread has sprung up asking for Classic AV back (or at least fixed).

Blizzard: You are losing older subscriptions because you are ignoring older subscribers.

_________________________________________________________________________
"A Treatise on Bluetip Threshers"
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3424907465
"A 'Brief' History of AV"
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2952885503
85 Human Mage
0
10/30/2011 11:56 PMPosted by Hairybanjo
So many of my old friends who played this game have quit. I believe they are kinda alienating their Veteran player base a little bit.


Out of the group of friends who convinced me to start playing WoW in the first place, I am the last player remaining. My history with the Warcraft RTS series is the only thing keeping me around.

All I do is PvP, and out of eight battlegrounds, only three* really excite me. That isn't enough to keep me going through another expansion, unless Blizzard starts paying my subscription fees.


*AB, BfG and EotS. Don't get me wrong, WSG and TP are solid maps, I'm just not big on CTF.
_________________________________________________________________________
"A Treatise on Bluetip Threshers"
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3424907465
"A 'Brief' History of AV"
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2952885503
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2305
10/31/2011 03:22 AMPosted by Foury
So many of my old friends who played this game have quit. I believe they are kinda alienating their Veteran player base a little bit.


Out of the group of friends who convinced me to start playing WoW in the first place, I am the last player remaining. My history with the Warcraft RTS series is the only thing keeping me around.

All I do is PvP, and out of eight battlegrounds, only three* really excite me. That isn't enough to keep me going through another expansion, unless Blizzard starts paying my subscription fees.


*AB, BfG and EotS. Don't get me wrong, WSG and TP are solid maps, I'm just not big on CTF.
_________________________________________________________________________
"A Treatise on Bluetip Threshers"
<a href="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3424907465">http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3424907465</a>
"A 'Brief' History of AV"
<a href="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2952885503">http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2952885503</a>


QFMFT

After thinking about the annual pass for a few days, I've decided not to take it because WoW and diablo 3 just don't cater to people from my generation anymore.
Definitely. That said, I would not like it if they had to cut other things just to bring something back that satisfies, what is now anyway, a very small niche of the playerbase.



Sorry, but these are the things that drew, and held, players like Foury, myself, and countless others. Not a small niche in the playerbase at all.

People seem to believe that every new player is an instant gratification, ADD type kid. That's not true.

I also see a lot of people saying they hope the devs read this. It's not just the devs.....we need the management to also read this. But like the devs, the management of this game have also disconnected themselves from their playerbase, if they ever cared enough in the first place to connect.

I love a lot of suggestions I've seen in the last 5 pages. I fell in love with this game as many others did.....playing while questing, 7 years ago.....then running BRD for the first time, and doing AV for the first time, and becoming totally addicted to the game, and what it truly offered.


I won't lie. I have been hanging in for a couple of years now, hoping BLizz would give us optional REAL instances, and optional REAL BG's, like the old BRD, and AV. I pretty much only continue playing for the social aspects now. After 7 years, you make a lot of friends. But some have dropped because the game that held us all in thrall has been overall nerfed. Some have dropped because the community is poisonous (IMO it's because Blizz catered too much to the current "I want my epix now!" crowd, but that's business.). Some have dropped because of the economy, and are no longer able to afford extra $ for a game they really don't enjoy anymore. I myself, along with about half of my guild, and the dozen or so real life friends and family members I brought into the game, are going to be dropping when SWTOR hits.

I know I'm just one sub to Blizz, and that even because of me leaving, they are only losing a maximum of 12-15 subs (myself, wife, 4 children I got playing, 2 brothers, nephews, gamer friends I've had for 20 years, etc). But I don't think the Blizz management understands totally what is happening. I'm not coming back, and I bet most who come with me are either. Because Blizz is not listening to us who have been loyal through the years, not one bit. Every expansion, the game gets more and more 'faceroll', so they can get new subs to replace the ones dropping. But the problem is "Don't burn your bridges." Blizzard is losing a lot of long timers, and I don't think even restoring the game to it's Vanilla style will bring people back. Yes, the game has progressed, as it must. And I have watched it progress, through 7 years, nearly every day. Not all is bad. But it has really become apparent that they don't listen to the years long loyal customers....only to those who want things even easier, and faster.

All we're asking for is OPTIONAL old AV, and OPTIONAL hours long instances. I don't want to queue 3-4 times in my playtime, when I could get 1 instance that takes as long. It's not unreasonable. You have to give the long timers something as well as the newer crowd Blizzard, or you are permanently losing customers. And next year, when you start permanently losing those subs, you'll make more changes to get new subs, and the cycle will continue. So basically, you are chewing up your customers, and spitting them out, only to go look for new customers. But consider....people like me have been chewed up, and spit out...my kids are all gamers, most of my friends are....do you think I'm not telling them all EXACTLY what the game is like? How many subs will you not be getting, ever, because you don't listen the slightest bit to your old customers?

All you have to do is give people that already sub some solidity, some pieces of the past they really enjoyed. As optional content. And consider the big picture, of what you you might get in return.

So, yeah....for all of you who think no game will topple WoW...consider this. Before WoW, was EQ. They annoyed enough players, that those players went somewhere else. And with those small sub payments, the company began to grow, to develop more stuff for players to do. The bottom line is if Blizz alienates enough players, and we take our money to a company (let's say Bioware, for arguments sake), then even if the game sucks at first that we go to, in time, it will improve, perhaps vastly. Only time will tell. And honestly, Blizz is not building their compnay like a pyramid, with a wide, solid base, and slowly getting higher. More like an upside down pyramid, with the base being eroded, and the top getting heavier and heavier.



Also,
10/31/2011 03:27 AMPosted by Polenzsky
After thinking about the annual pass for a few days, I've decided not to take it because WoW and diablo 3 just don't cater to people from my generation anymore.


It's not even that they don't cater. I discussed the 1 year pass with my wife, and after a couple days, we decided to pass as well. Because they don't listen to the older players, the long time players, the ones who have stuck around for years, and would stick around for years more.



Sorry, it's far too early, and no coffee yet, so I'm not sure if I stayed on the track I started out on. But thanks once again for a spectacular post Foury.
Edited by Grimslaide on 10/31/2011 4:38 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2305

It's not even that they don't cater. I discussed the 1 year pass with my wife, and after a couple days, we decided to pass as well. Because they don't listen to the older players, the long time players, the ones who have stuck around for years, and would stick around for years more.



Sorry, it's far too early, and no coffee yet, so I'm not sure if I stayed on the track I started out on. But thanks once again for a spectacular post Foury.


From a business point of view however, they're making the right decisions.The easier and dumbed down the game gets, the more subscribers they will get and that target market is more likely to spend $ on custom skins/mounts/pets.People who enjoy the content that we do probably number less than 500k worldwide
90 Goblin Hunter
10315
I can TOTALLY AGREE with this post. I have been playing now for 6 years and I really miss some of the old style of playing. I HATE the fact that if I do an instance now that I will gain 2 or 3 levels in just a run or two and not even have the chance to finish my quests because they have turned gray and are no longer of any use to me.

The whole point in a game is to be part of the story and be involved but since WOTLK and Cata you just don't get that at all because you lvl too fast.
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