A Treatise On Bluetip Threshers

Sorry Pol, I was editting my post when you commented. The edit is relevant to your reply.

How much is that 500k? 5% of the player base, or so?

Even 100k subs would be quite enough to get it going I think. I'm not exactly computer literate, so don't understand the costs involved, etc.

But I understand that if SWTOR takes 5% of WoW's playerbase, that's pretty substantial. And I do understand that given enough time and resources, perhaps that 5% will be enough to cause a competitor to grow to the same size as WoW.

Is that something Blizz is trying to cultivate, rather than putting a little time and money into giving that 5% OPTIONAL content? Content that is vintage (or at least vintage style), so not even like we're asking for new, innovative stuff.

We're asking that you mash together 3 instances worth of content into one instance. We're asking that you give us a BG with no timer, no reinforcement count....and we're asking that you make it optional, so you won't piss off the instant gratification crowd. And we're asking nicely, in well spoken, non-trolling postings.

Or at least that's what I'm asking for. And I can't be the only one who has given you years worth of money, and loyalty, and would be that easy to keep on board.
Edited by Grimslaide on 10/31/2011 4:51 AM PDT
90 Troll Rogue
9980
While I agree that it's nice to have variety, you have to understand that people don't GET it.

We're lucky (in my mind) that we have a dungeon like BRD in the game, relatively unscathed by people who would nerf it.

The issue with putting a new BRD-style dungeon in the game is that either it's going to have to have the same loot as all the other heroics (in which case, people will just ignore it because it's much easier to get the same loot in less time), or it's going to have to reward that extra effort, turning it into yet another version of trollorics (which are long and drawn out and reward loot accordingly) - however it's usually irritating to be forced into a long dungeon when you would much prefer a shorter one simply because you get the best loot from the longer one.

I also agree that I miss honest quest hubs. I like making my own choices about what story I follow and I hate feeling railroaded. I might as well not have quests if all I'm doing is walking two feet and then getting an update to walk two more feet. There's no variety, no options, no choices. I used to pride myself on gathering up a pile of quests and doing them as effciently as possible. Now any place I zone into I'm spoonfed 2-3 quests that all take place in the same spot. Then when I'm done those, I'm spoonfed 2-3 more quests that again, take to a new spot, but they all take place within that spot.

Can you imagine how much FUN Vash'jir would have been if we'd gotten all the quests at once? Frig, that would have made that horrible experience at least somewhat more tolerable - making the choice to go to Nespirah NOW or LATER or going to go mess with the Naga History (or not), or whatever you wanted to follow information wise (how is the Earthen Ring doing? How is the Horde doing? What's the damn deal with those old gods?) you could, at your own leisure.

Wouldn't that have been nice? Instead of being spoonfed quests that just didn't matter like helping that lunatic Budd catch sharks? I don't MIND playing with Budd, but if there's a plot that I'm interested in, I should have the right to pursue it!

I really hope Blizzard understands that it's not about the difficulty as much as making choices that we're looking for. I want to take risks, yes. But more than that, I also want to choose my own path. I don't need to be railroaded to have fun, in fact I rather abhor being unable to advance how I like.
10/31/2011 04:51 AMPosted by Dembai
The issue with putting a new BRD-style dungeon in the game is that either it's going to have to have the same loot as all the other heroics (in which case, people will just ignore it because it's much easier to get the same loot in less time), or it's going to have to reward that extra effort, turning it into yet another version of trollorics (which are long and drawn out and reward loot accordingly) - however it's usually irritating to be forced into a long dungeon when you would much prefer a shorter one simply because you get the best loot from the longer one.



This is where either you don't get it, or I don't.


The point to the longer instances, and to old style AV was "It's about the game we are playing". It's not about the loot, it's not about the honor. At least to me. I want to have fun playing the game. And to me, epic instances are fun. 2-3 hours in one instance instead of waiting in queue 3-4 times a night, for a 20-30 minute run. Going into 1 BG that lasts for hours, because it has so many facets, and ways to win. Not going for the loot or honor, but going to these places for the adventure, going because that's what is fun for me.

I pay to PLAY. I don't pay so I can have purple items that aren't even really mine. It's not about the having, it's about the getting.
Edited by Grimslaide on 10/31/2011 4:59 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2305
Sorry Pol, I was editting my post when you commented. The edit is relevant to your reply.

How much is that 500k? 5% of the player base, or so?

Even 100k subs would be quite enough to get it going I think. I'm not exactly computer literate, so don't understand the costs involved, etc.

But I understand that if SWTOR takes 5% of WoW's playerbase, that's pretty substantial. And I do understand that given enough time and resources, perhaps that 5% will be enough to cause a competitor to grow to the same size as WoW.

Is that something Blizz is trying to cultivate, rather than putting a little time and money into giving that 5% OPTIONAL content? Content that is vintage, so not even like we're asking for new, innovative stuff.

We're asking that you mash together 3 instances worth of content into one instance. We're asking that you give us a BG with no timer, no reinforcement count....and we're asking that you make it optional, so you won't piss off the instant gratification crowd. And we're asking nicely, in well spoken, non-trolling postings.

Or at least that's what I'm asking for. And I can't be the only one who has given you years worth of money, and loyalty, and would be that easy to keep on board.


Blizzard might lose a small % of the old customers as well as people who hates pandas for a variety of reasons but I do believe that they're targeting the new generation of kids to play WoW and the profit from the new customers will greatly exceed the sub loss from old players.

Their carrot on a stick model works very well with the younger kids, people do arena/rated bgs to get gear to pwn people with inferior gear and the pugs just willingly get pwn so they can farm honor gear to pwn people who just reach level cap.It might seem alien to us old timers but most of the newer players like the current system
Perhaps I should slow it down a bit then.

The "getting" - the act of acquiring. The crawling through the dungeons, the killing of mobs, the plotting of strategies, the thrill of eventual victory.

The "having" - The shiny new items that you are so proud to have for about 10 minutes before you want something else new.


And the elements you don't think I should be excited about? Those are the very elements that brought and kept many of us here in the first place. Those are the very elements that are lacking lately, and causing people to slowly allow themselves be drawn to other games.

Like I said....the items I get from these dungeons, those are not mine, and never will be. They belong to Blizzard, and are on loan to me. But the night after an epic dungeon crawl with my brothers, son, and wife...as we sit around laughing about 'haha, you noob pally....when you facepulled that boss and he pwned you, while the rest of us ran for help....that was hilarious"....etc.

The game is about having fun, a few laughs, some good times. A way to kill some time, and relax. Anything you "get" in the game will never be yours. But the times you "have", that's all you really take from the game with you for good.


Edit: What's sad is I just realized what you meant Pol. And how sadly right you are. I was reviewing Perseum's post, and I realized that the way Blizz is going, and the people they are trying to get are much easier to please. The game has gone from being a thing of joy for the majority to a grindfest because the way the 'new' customers think. And it's cheaper and easier for Blizz to cater to them.

An example is me and Perseum:

To really, truly make me a thrilled customer, I want a long instance, one I can spend hours in, wandering around with family and friends, having some memorable times. I want to play the game, become immersed in it, and loot is a bonus.

For Perseum, to really, truly make him a thrilled customer, he wants a new pixelated thing he can never hold, and he wants to be able to get it in 20 minute time chunks, and very few of those.


So, Blizz sees it as: make 1 instance, and the loot is unimportant, but it takes days to even consider the entirety of the place....or make that same 1 instance into 3 sections, and put in an item with a purple name that took someone 15 seconds to dream up, and give it away after running those 3 about 10 times.


I don't know whether I'm saddened by this revelation, or just resigned. Lol.
Edited by Grimslaide on 10/31/2011 5:28 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2305
^

For the older generations it's always been the epic adventure but as you've already known, the younger generation wants instant gratification.By getting new loot often, the brain triggers a release of chemicals that makes players feel happy but to ensure they don't get them too often and to intensify the process, they continue to make loot random

The game has turned into a psychological trap basically, everything done is to ensure continuation of subscription without actually bettering the game but tricking the subscriber's mind instead

85 Undead Priest
8315
10/31/2011 04:57 AMPosted by Polenzsky
Their carrot on a stick model works very well with the younger kids, people do arena/rated bgs to get gear to pwn people with inferior gear and the pugs just willingly get pwn so they can farm honor gear to pwn people who just reach level cap.It might seem alien to us old timers but most of the newer players like the current system


This right here, ladies and gentlemen, is the most accurate description of Blizzard's pvp system to date.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2305
Their carrot on a stick model works very well with the younger kids, people do arena/rated bgs to get gear to pwn people with inferior gear and the pugs just willingly get pwn so they can farm honor gear to pwn people who just reach level cap.It might seem alien to us old timers but most of the newer players like the current system


This right here, ladies and gentlemen, is the most accurate description of Blizzard's pvp system to date.


But I'd just like to clarify that blizzard did not invent it , first person shooters did it first with unlockable weapons, ranks and perks.The psychological impact and the profit it makes however makes it desirable and so it was replicated in World of Warcraft.
Edited by Polenzsky on 10/31/2011 6:30 AM PDT
85 Undead Priest
8315
10/31/2011 06:29 AMPosted by Polenzsky
But I'd just like to clarify that blizzard did not invent it , first person shooters did it first with unlockable weapons, ranks and perks.The psychological impact and the profit it makes however makes it desirable and so it was replicated in World of Warcraft.


Again, I think you are right. Blizzard did not invent it but they have done a great job exploiting this technique. I believe the "psychological impact and the profit" are short term benefits that will in the end cause much opportunity for other MMO vendors trying to do something different.
Edited by Deluxxe on 10/31/2011 6:47 AM PDT
90 Orc Hunter
9465
Actually neither blizzard nor shooters invented it.

A psychologist by the name of B.F. Skinner discovered it.

Penny arcade did a pretty good cover of it,

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-skinner-box


Watch that, then think about how and why you play WoW.
Edited by Vaelkyri on 10/31/2011 6:52 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2305
But I'd just like to clarify that blizzard did not invent it , first person shooters did it first with unlockable weapons, ranks and perks.The psychological impact and the profit it makes however makes it desirable and so it was replicated in World of Warcraft.


Again, I think you are right. Blizzard did not invent it but they have done a great job exploiting this technique. I believe the "psychological impact and the profit" are short term benefits that will in the end cause much opportunity for other MMO vendors trying to do something different.


They do know that trick alone won't last which is why they're trying hard to prop it up as Esport and world of warcraft as a lifestyle and global culture instead of being just a game.They made machinema with tunes of popular song but WoW lyrics as well as cross promoton with goods that are already seen as part of everyday object and culture together with it.

If you realize the trick behind making people watch sports or drinking coca cola then you know the simple trick they're using

If they totally failed into making it an Esport, I could see them using marketing techniques where they show people playing WoW on tv as attractive, desirable and basically the cult of personality technique they use to prop up the untalented artists these days.Oh wait they already did with the WoW celebrity commercials but they could take it up a lot further

The other developers are not on even close to being on Activison Blizzard's level and none of their CEO is as brilliant as kotick so I highly doubt WoW will be dethroned within the decade

Actually neither blizzard nor shooters invented it.

A psychologist by the name of B.F. Skinner discovered it.

Penny arcade did a pretty good cover of it,

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-skinner-box


Watch that, then think about how and why you play WoW.


Cool, I just noticed it from people's playing and buying habbits

I've always been a avid fan of propaganda and manipulation tho
Edited by Polenzsky on 10/31/2011 7:01 AM PDT
90 Orc Hunter
9465
I beg to differ, people are wising up to the skinner box, both players and developers. Arenanet is doin a great job with GW2, and whilst it may not 'dethrone' WoW, it is definatly goin to make devs sit up and take notice.

85 Blood Elf Paladin
2305
10/31/2011 07:02 AMPosted by Vaelkyri
I beg to differ, people are wising up to the skinner box, both players and developers. Arenanet is doin a great job with GW2, and whilst it may not 'dethrone' WoW, it is definatly goin to make devs sit up and take notice.


You overestimate the intellect of the average human
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2305
@ Deluxxe

Another thing you probably already know is the nerfs/buffs to classes that affects pvp, they have absolutely nothing to do with balance but to create FOTM classes.This ensures that players of certain classes feel powerful at some point, if players don't have the illusion taht it's the class that's underpowered and realize that they're just the ones that are bad then they'll quit the game.
85 Human Mage
0
It's disheartening to see a company that used to be so creative watering down their content for a quick buck.

What happened to "Hey, we're making lots of money. Now that we don't need to worry about cash, let's see what interesting and innovative places we can take this art project?"

_________________________________________________________________________
"A Treatise on Bluetip Threshers"
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3424907465
"A 'Brief' History of AV"
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2952885503
90 Goblin Hunter
10895
the main problem with vanilla dungeons, IMO, was no maps. Now that we can have maps, Blizzard should feel free to add more optional content to the dungeons.
85 Night Elf Mage
6685
You made some excellent points in this thread, Foury, and I had an epiphany while reading.

I want to be lost again.

I want the devs to let go and stop holding my hand. Let me wander off into the wilderness and get lost on the way home. Give me a chance to challenge myself on my own - without having to join a raid.
85 Human Mage
0
11/02/2011 01:06 AMPosted by Polenzsky
Unfortunately corporations don't work that way Foury,


Yeah, I know.

/shuffles off into a corner while a single tear rolls down his cheek.



Corporations ruin everything: Creativity, freedom, Christmas, the environment, puppies...

_________________________________________________________________________
"A Treatise on Bluetip Threshers"
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3424907465
"A 'Brief' History of AV"
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2952885503
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