Theramore in flames: Horde favoritism. pt. 2

10/25/2011 04:33 PMPosted by Dalius
I have to admit, you try your best Z, but I guess some of us are not buying it, you do a good job carrying the water of the devs and writers just remember to never drink it.


Based on his recent posts, I'd say it's too late.

/mourn Z
Edited by Cutabove on 10/25/2011 4:36 PM PDT
85 Human Warrior
10060
10/25/2011 04:33 PMPosted by Dalius
Oh please, work with me here. :)In Cataclysm, desperate times call for desperate measures. And that impact was not equal and 1:1 as far as Alliance and Horde went. The Warcraft universe, at its core, is based on the rivalry between two vastly different factions. To make sure they have shared hardships -- equal ups and downs at each interval -- is pretty boring and severely limits the character development of the leaders on both sides. And it leaves the story with a lack of momentum for building good content.


I have to admit, you try your best Z, but I guess some of us are not buying it, you do a good job carrying the water of the devs and writers just remember to never drink it. It could be worst you could have the job of the other blue who tries to convince us that GLORY TO THE ALLIANCE is the most rocking anthem/battlecry/or whatever you call it...

To be honest, not sure if who burns what matters in this game as you said, I won't lay that at your feet, but there are a couple of things I will.

What I will hold you to is effort. The alliance leadership and involvement has no effort. Compared to I dunno the back and forth between the GH and the Dark Lady, Voljin even gets in on the act, the comparison is glaring, oh and to top it off here help a whiny, needy shaman named Thrall for an expansion as a consolation prize. Your lack of even an effort at balance and enriching the leaders of the game is the most disappointing. They are in every term of the word shallow and flat characters, more akin to backgrounds. That is where you all have failed.

Hey, Varian has a big throne room, maybe Jania can hang out with Genn in 5.0. I mean its a pretty nice place, its got lion statues, a little park, a seldom used war room apparently, and a grear view. I mean on a clear day you can almost see the alliance cities burning, and hear the anguish cries, that is if a cut scene of showing how much depth the horde story has does not get in the way.

They don't care. They love the horde, they show it time and time again. Horde players admit it, Alliance players know it, most of us tolerate it. I'm done tolerating it. It's crossed the point of being absolutely absurd. Personally if I were the owner of blizzard and one of my employees made fun of either faction at an event where you are representing my company ... you would be fired immediately by me. Blizzard needs to start sticking to what they say and spend equal and fair time on both factions instead of just one.

LONG LIVE THE LION!
100 Human Priest
16015
I have to admit, you try your best Z, but I guess some of us are not buying it, you do a good job carrying the water of the devs and writers just remember to never drink it.


Based on his recent posts, I'd say it's too late.

/mourn Z


No, I'm fairly sure Blizzard realizes there's an issue. Whether they feel we're viewing them accurately or not is another question altogether. If their competitors are picking up on the problem, then Blizzard knows it's there. It's a matter of fixing things, and that's not something easily done when any time they do something pro-alliance (which isn't often, mind you), the horde basically bash them for "caving."
Edited by Rislyn on 10/25/2011 4:40 PM PDT
100 Human Warlock
14145
Alliance are so busy crying about their losses they don't take the time to stop and look what the Horde lost.

We lost Thrall and Cairne while young inept leaders took their place. While Stormwinds leader returns. The Horde leadership is falling apart while the Alliance is starting to unite together.



The Alliance is starting to unite? based on what? The Alliance leaders have done nothing all expansion.

The Horde leaders may be falling apart, but at least the Horde leaders get a story. There's in-game scenes that show the tension between Garrosh and Vol'jin & Garrosh and Sylvanas. Vol'jin has his own story, where he has to decide between the loyalty to the Horde and loyalty to the Troll race.

Where are the storylines involving the Alliance leaders? Hey remember how prior to Cataclysm the Magni Bronzebeard turned to stone and the Council of Three Hammers took control? Well apparently Blizzard forgot about that story, since they've done nothing with in-game. How are they getting along? Any tension? What does Muradin think of the fact that a Dark Iron is heir to the throne? Couldn't we have something in-game that furthers that story?

Let's take a look at Tyrande. She ruled her people for thousands of years, how does she feel about Varian? Is she comfortable with his leadership? She was depicted as a powerful warrior in her own right during WC3 - does she feel like she should be with Malfurion in the front line, defending Hyjal (which is holy land to the Night Elves)? We'll never know, since she hasn't done anything for several expansions in a row.

For the Horde one leader (Blood Elf) has done nothing this expansion. Compare that to the Alliance where none of the leaders other than Varian have done anything (and he barely has).

So despite what people think, the complaint isn't just that the Alliance may be losing another zone or quest hub. I understand in Cataclysm they wanted to even out the leveling experience, and I hope Theramore is the start of an interesting story involving Jaina.

But my complaint is basically this - so far, they have not made much effort to make interesting stories involving the Alliance, at least not compared to the Horde. There's the examples I mentioned above. And a few more - let's look at Twilight Highlands. A Horde player enters gets to enter TH with Garrosh at the head of a powerful army. Alliance players get a Crrrrazy helicopter ride (yuk yuk yuk!). We need to recruit a powerful new ally to fight the Twilight Hammer & the Horde. How do we do so? We drink beer! And we protect a beer convoy! Ha!! Oh those wacky dwarves.

Don't get me wrong - I love the humor in WoW, but Alliance players would also of like to feel that they're part of mighty war machine themselves once in a while.

Another example - we get to see Garrosh's reaction what are essentially war crimes in Stonetalon, and his disgust at Sylvanas using the plague as a weapon. They're great scenes that help flesh out Garrosh as a character. So what does Tyrande think of atrocities committed against her people? What does Malfurion think? We don't know, because Tyrande doesn't do anything other than ask you to go kill a giant spider running around Teldrassil. What does Varian think of what happened in Southshore and Stonetalon? Is he using it to rally his people and get the Alliance leaders behind him? You'd think so - but again, that hasn't been written.

Because it's all about Garrosh, and his personal growth storyline which has been playing out for three expansions in a row now.

And they could have written these storylines, had quests and dialogues about them - without changing ownership of a single zone.

So let's leave aside the mechanics of how who should have what zones, what was needed to even out the leveling experience. Let's forget who has better PvP racials, or who has a better starting location in AV, because that's not the point of the conversation.

I'm not asking for Alliance to take over all the zones, or to retake Undercity/Lordareon or anything like that. I don't think every victory has to be immediately offset by an equivalent victory by the opposite side.

I just want them to put the same effort into writing Alliance characters, quests, and story-lines as they do for the Horde. Is that too much to ask?
Edited by Amandalynn on 10/25/2011 4:51 PM PDT
10/25/2011 04:39 PMPosted by Rislyn


Based on his recent posts, I'd say it's too late.

/mourn Z


No, I'm fairly sure Blizzard realizes there's an issue. Whether they feel we're viewing them accurately or not is another question altogether. If their competitors are picking up on the problem, then Blizzard knows it's there. It's a matter of fixing things, and that's not something easily done when any time they do something pro-alliance (which isn't often, mind you), the horde basically bash them for "caving."


that is their problem..they created it..they need to fix it /end thread
90 Gnome Rogue
19635
10/25/2011 04:37 PMPosted by Amurru
LONG LIVE THE LION!


Lion mount has been removed and replaced by Ol' Blanchy's distant cousin, "Bill" the Stubborn Mule. Pay no mind that his model is the exact same as Ol' Blanchy's. Trust us, the art department spent months working on this.
100 Goblin Rogue
14085
alliance battle cry is as follows, ahem, "NOT THE FACE!"
87 Human Warrior
8160
10/24/2011 11:19 PMPosted by Zarhym
I know I did talk about this subject when Cataclysm was the fresh, hot topic. I don't remember what my exact words were, though, and would love to read them again after seeing several people bring them up in this thread.


Posted by you on 11-23-2010
11/23/2010 07:12 PMPosted by Zarhym
One day the collective community will come together and agree never to use this excuse, realizing that Blizzard, as a development company, is interested in providing compelling gameplay and lore to those on both sides of the aisle. All will exclaim that this is only possible through the evolution of this game world! All will see that the struggle between Horde and Alliance, in the grand history of Warcraft, is tit for tat.

Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".

I'm pretty sure I never made any specific point that an equal amount of story and retribution would be dedicated to the Alliance in Cataclysm

Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".

But you will win some and you will lose some. And the wins and losses won't be at equal intervals for both sides, aligning with the release of each patch or expansion.

Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".
10/25/2011 04:43 PMPosted by Charagon
I know I did talk about this subject when Cataclysm was the fresh, hot topic. I don't remember what my exact words were, though, and would love to read them again after seeing several people bring them up in this thread.


Posted by you on 11-23-2010
One day the collective community will come together and agree never to use this excuse, realizing that Blizzard, as a development company, is interested in providing compelling gameplay and lore to those on both sides of the aisle. All will exclaim that this is only possible through the evolution of this game world! All will see that the struggle between Horde and Alliance, in the grand history of Warcraft, is tit for tat.

Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".

I'm pretty sure I never made any specific point that an equal amount of story and retribution would be dedicated to the Alliance in Cataclysm

Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".

But you will win some and you will lose some. And the wins and losses won't be at equal intervals for both sides, aligning with the release of each patch or expansion.

Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".


Ok, this guy wins. Good job.
85 Night Elf Druid
1825
Its complicated racial disharmony like this that makes me think the twilight hammers might be on to something.
90 Night Elf Hunter
13455
Zarhym,

Chatting with you at Blizzcon was probably the highlight of the convention for me since that's something you can't do if you get the stream through Direct TV, but I'm sorry man....it's just that the bucket you carry has a lot of holes for the water you're pouring in.

Don't get me wrong, I see where things are going here and it's pretty cool. Destroying Theramore, Jaina throwing her support behind the war to stop Garrosh, it's an awesome set up. I even see Jaina fighting alongside Varian (and yeah, the fact that she resembles Tiffin isn't lost on me either, love it or hate it it's a possibility) after such an act.

But here's the thing....the Horde will get more development out of it. I just have come to honestly believe that. The Horde will benefit from anything that happens and the Alliance will just somewhat get by.

While Horde players point to Wrath as an Alliance-centered expansion, I look at it and I see neutral factions rallying us against Arthas. The Alliance got Muradin back, but in the grand scheme that hasn't been a big deal. We saw Varian developed in Undercity and Ulduar and he had a good scene in Icecrown after Saurfang was defeated.

But the real meat of development was seeing Garrosh become a hero to the orcs and Thrall struggling to teach him restraint. With Cataclysm, the story centers around Thrall, but we see major plot developments for the Forsaken, Sylvanas, and Garrosh. And where do we see it? Near Gilneas, an Alliance race's capital that they don't even have any clue what the story concluded with?

And then our long lost hero, our dang near demi-god of power, Malfurion, returns after 7 years of WoW. The druid that Metzen himself once dubbed his favorite character.....says we need to forget about Ashenvale being razed and burned and work with the Horde. Cenarius doesn't blink at the orcs that cut him down. What's worse, instead of taking up a place in Fandral's old location, Malfurion stands in the Temple and will watch Horde slaughter Alliance without raising a finger.

Don't get me wrong, Z, I love the way the story is developing and I think you guys need to keep going full steam ahead on Horde development......but you've totally forgotten the Alliance. I get the notion that history repeats itself. The Old Horde devastated everything from Duskwood to South Shore during the First and Second Wars before we pushed them back to find victory...but here's the thing:

WoW will never allow the Alliance to do that. We won't push them back, we won't reclaim our lost territory. We won't make any gains on what we've lost because it's too new. You guys won't, logically from a business standpoint, spend resources to alter zones that were just altered. I wouldn't expect it, it's asinine to think that would be on the drawing board.

That's why the Alliance feels we're in an endlessly losing battle. Even when we win, even when we have a "moment" it feels like there's more development potential for the Horde.

Because, let's face it...Metzen made it clear Thrall is coming back. And his reaction to this attack will be more interesting than anything the Alliance is likely to see.

And as a final addendum, I'll agree with an earlier poster. It's cool Varian is going to become a bad !@# hero for the races to really rally behind....but that just makes him the mirrored Alliance Warchief, not the High King. We're distinctly different factions, not mirror images.
85 Human Warrior
10060
Next year I'm going to blizzcon if i get to do a Q/A? I'd focus on insulting the entire team up there by drawing them into making fun of the alliance then quoting their own employees against them. Ultimate goal make them look like the bunch of idiots they are in front of everyone.
90 Gnome Rogue
19635
Can't help it.
Posting impassionately, they say you don't care.
Posting nothing, they say you ignore.
Posting with passion, you incite trolls.
Posting fluff, you say nonsense.
Post with what facts you have, they whittle down with rationale.
There is no win.
There is only slow degradation.


Hmm, Tseric's words actually fit with the CMs and Alliance position, too.

Ultimate goal make them look like the bunch of idiots they are in front of everyone.


So long as you pay hundreds for the ticket and keep subscribing, they'll probably smile for you, too. Guess who still wins?
Edited by Oddjob on 10/25/2011 4:54 PM PDT
90 Gnome Mage
0
10/25/2011 04:43 PMPosted by Charagon
I know I did talk about this subject when Cataclysm was the fresh, hot topic. I don't remember what my exact words were, though, and would love to read them again after seeing several people bring them up in this thread.


Posted by you on 11-23-2010
One day the collective community will come together and agree never to use this excuse, realizing that Blizzard, as a development company, is interested in providing compelling gameplay and lore to those on both sides of the aisle. All will exclaim that this is only possible through the evolution of this game world! All will see that the struggle between Horde and Alliance, in the grand history of Warcraft, is tit for tat.

Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".

I'm pretty sure I never made any specific point that an equal amount of story and retribution would be dedicated to the Alliance in Cataclysm

Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".

But you will win some and you will lose some. And the wins and losses won't be at equal intervals for both sides, aligning with the release of each patch or expansion.

Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".

Game over, man. Game over.
90 Orc Warlock
7700
Leave the Alliance, roll with the Horde. Come to the winning side.

Seriously. If enough players left the Alliance and rolled Horde toons, wouldn't the developers be forced to make the Alliance more interesting in order to bring balance to the game? It used to be that nearly every server was something like 5-1 Alliance over Horde. Make it 5-1 Horde, and I would bet that the Alliance would start getting the favoritism that you believe the Horde enjoys.
85 Human Warrior
10060
10/25/2011 04:58 PMPosted by Gnomeorpuns


Posted by you on 11-23-2010

Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".


Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".


Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".

Game over, man. Game over.

Shhhh don't diss the guy to hard. It's not his he can't back up what he is trying to say due to the overwhelming amount of evidence against him. Innocent till proven guilty ..............................................................Proven Guilty
85 Human Paladin
9705
Alliance are so busy crying about their losses they don't take the time to stop and look what the Horde lost.

We lost Thrall and Cairne while young inept leaders took their place. While Stormwinds leader returns. The Horde leadership is falling apart while the Alliance is starting to unite together.



The Alliance is starting to unite? based on what? The Alliance leaders have done nothing all expansion.

The Horde leaders may be falling apart, but at least the Horde leaders get a story. There's in-game scenes that show the tension between Garrosh and Vol'jin & Garrosh and Sylvanas. Vol'jin has his own story, where he has to decide between the loyalty to the Horde and loyalty to the Troll race.

Where are the storylines involving the Alliance leaders? Hey remember how prior to Cataclysm the Magni Bronzebeard turned to stone and the Council of Three Hammers took control? Well apparently Blizzard forgot about that story, since they've done nothing with in-game. How are they getting along? Any tension? What does Muradin think of the fact that a Dark Iron is heir to the throne? Couldn't we have something in-game that furthers that story?

Let's take a look at Tyrande. She ruled her people for thousands of years, how does she feel about Varian? Is she comfortable with his leadership? She was depicted as a powerful warrior in her own right during WC3 - does she feel like she should be with Malfurion in the front line, defending Hyjal (which is holy land to the Night Elves)? We'll never know, since she hasn't done anything for several expansions in a row.

For the Horde one leader (Blood Elf) has done nothing this expansion. Compare that to the Alliance where none of the leaders other than Varian have done anything (and he barely has).

So despite what people think, the complaint isn't just that the Alliance may be losing another zone or quest hub. I understand in Cataclysm they wanted to even out the leveling experience, and I hope Theramore is the start of an interesting story involving Jaina.

But my complaint is basically this - so far, they have not made much effort to make interesting stories involving the Alliance, at least not compared to the Horde. There's the examples I mentioned above. And a few more - let's look at Twilight Highlands. A Horde player enters gets to enter TH with Garrosh at the head of a powerful army. Alliance players get a Crrrrazy helicopter ride (yuk yuk yuk!). We need to recruit a powerful new ally to fight the Twilight Hammer & the Horde. How do we do so? We drink beer! And we protect a beer convoy! Ha!! Oh those wacky dwarves.

Don't get me wrong - I love the humor in WoW, but Alliance players would also of like to feel that they're part of mighty war machine themselves once in a while.

Another example - we get to see Garrosh's reaction what are essentially war crimes in Stonetalon, and his disgust at Sylvanas using the plague as a weapon. They're great scenes that help flesh out Garrosh as a character. So what does Tyrande think of atrocities committed against her people? What does Malfurion think? We don't know, because Tyrande doesn't do anything other than ask you to go kill a giant spider running around Teldrassil. What does Varian think of what happened in Southshore and Stonetalon? Is he using it to rally his people and get the Alliance leaders behind him? You'd think so - but again, that hasn't been written.

Because it's all about Garrosh, and his personal growth storyline which has been playing out for three expansions in a row now.

And they could have written these storylines, had quests and dialogues about them - without changing ownership of a single zone.

So let's leave aside the mechanics of how who should have what zones, what was needed to even out the leveling experience. Let's forget who has better PvP racials, or who has a better starting location in AV, because that's not the point of the conversation.

I'm not asking for Alliance to take over all the zones, or to retake Undercity/Lordareon or anything like that. I don't think every victory has to be immediately offset by an equivalent victory by the opposite side.

I just want them to put the same effort into writing Alliance characters, quests, and story-lines as they do for the Horde. Is that too much to ask?


This. This so ****ing hard. This is why Cataclysm has been so damned boring and disheartening from an Alliance perspective. Not even counting the lack of endgame content.
100 Night Elf Hunter
18205
If Jaina has any part in the upcoming expansion, it should be to 'stay out of the way'.

I really don't want her as a quest giver.

I don't want to listen to her whining about her lost city.

I'm not interested in 'coulda-shoulda-woulda' with regard to peace with the Horde.

I don't want her advice on how the Horde should be handled.

All I want is for her to shut... up... and... get... out... of... my... way.

As a character she's been wonderful at exactly three things: crying, running away, and turning a blind eye.

Examples:
Running away with Arthas to observe an orc internment camp.
Turning a blind eye how they were treated.
Running away from the scourge to Kalimdor.
Turning a blind eye to Arthas killing Archmage Leonidas, her mentor.
Turning a blind eye to the Horde killing her own father.
Forcing Varion and the alliance players at the Wrathgate to flee from Undercity rather
than confronting Thrall and Sylvanas (who, given the lore that's came out about her,
should have been finished then and there).
Running from Arthas the Lich King.
Crying because Varion allows Saurfang to recover his son.
Crying about Arthas despite the number of people he'd killed/damned.

Now this. No. Just keep her out of it. Dust her off and pop her back at the top of her tower if the alliance should manage to reclaim it like the good little cardboard-cutout figurehead she is. Beyond that, she's worthless.

/vote of no confidence
85 Human Paladin
2400
I plan on inhabiting Theramore with my paladin in protest.
90 Orc Death Knight
5605
I hope the Alliance does kill Garrosh, he is a douche bag with a !@#$ty in game model lol ;D
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