An explanation from the Blizzcon Lesbian

10/24/2011 01:03 AMPosted by Morvalwen
To ask for recognition for your preference is to ask for special treatment, and that sends the message that you cannot or will not compete on equal ground; that you need special dispensations. And that is not strength.


So African Americans did it wrong then? Someone should tell MLK...

"preference"...that's a funny word. And used totally wrong here.
Edited by Hoernbeme on 10/24/2011 1:06 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Mage
7410
@Morvalwen

While this is all well and good, Illidan is a PvP server, and I'm fairly sure neither of us want to leave. If anyone were to attempt to roleplay on Illidan...I doubt it would end well.
85 Orc Death Knight
2775
If someone has the right to Express their support of an idea or circumstance, then people as well have the right to express against it..
I'm not gonna read all the pages so excuse me if I'm OT.
The situation with gay npc's in wow is fine, it's subtle, so you can't easily pick it up, but it still exists, as many have mentioned.
Probably the most prominent gay NPC was if I recall miev (spelling).

As a christian I do disagree with homosexuality completely, but I'll try remain unbiased. My views are based not simply on religion but moral systems.
As I recall you want a major lore character to be gay, to represent your facet of the community. This is fine, your entitled to your question and I applaud your bravery to bring up such a controversial issue. However if they do such a thing I"m not sure, I think if they do it has to be subtle.
The real reasons they Won't I feel is simply that it will do no good, and it will possibly even cause harm. However what I say must have been said before.
Also to all of you pointing out that animals do it therefor it's ok. Don't be foolish, does an adult look to a child's behavior for moral grounds? Is a child stealing moral justification for an adult stealing?
I really don't think gay characters have a place in major wow lore, at least not on an obvious level.
On a side note epic typing lag (like 1fps).
85 Blood Elf Mage
7410
<Blizzcon Lesbian> the guild.

"the Blizzcon Lesbian" title.

Want.


This.

it's indeed a weird argument, justifying doing it because animals do it.

animals also do a lot of things you dont see humans doing. in the case of lions, killing their offspring at times.

should we pick that one up too? well technically with abortion...debatably...anyway. point stands. we're looking at things below us on evolution scale for guidance? why are we looking behind instead of ahead?


He was trying to explain that the argument that homosexuality is "unnatural" is invalid.
19 Orc Rogue
110
10/24/2011 01:04 AMPosted by Mooniverse
This is kind of getting out of hand, this wasn't really meant to be a homosexuality is right/wrong kind of thread, it was simply to explain my reasonings behind my question.


You don't spend much time on these forums, do you? It was always going to end up like this, no matter how well you worded your OP and how politely you stated your intentions. Some people just don't care about your intentions, you're threatening their worldview by asking for inclusion and they're going to push back.


The fact that you would think a question would in any way threaten folks world view suggests you don't understand anything about why people do not want this "ingame". It is a game and as such folks don't want it because they come here to escape the real world, thier perception of the real world wouldn't change 1 bit if it was added, it would in fact only lead to the necessity to add all other behaviors to the game. WoW is a game, not a place to stake the LGBT flag in the ground (or any other cause for that matter) to reflect real life.
85 Human Paladin
11570
10/24/2011 01:07 AMPosted by Keelurself
If someone has the right to Express their support of an idea or circumstance, then people as well have the right to express against it..


in the perfect world this is correct.

in reality...one side always ends up having the official ruling in their favor.
85 Orc Warrior
13480
10/24/2011 01:04 AMPosted by Mooniverse
This is kind of getting out of hand, this wasn't really meant to be a homosexuality is right/wrong kind of thread, it was simply to explain my reasonings behind my question.


You don't spend much time on these forums, do you? It was always going to end up like this, no matter how well you worded your OP and how politely you stated your intentions. Some people just don't care about your intentions, you're threatening their worldview by asking for inclusion and they're going to push back.


Oh, I've been lurking the forums for hours every day since Vanilla, I most certaintly knew how this would turn out, doesn't mean I can't say that its headed in the wrong direction though :)

Also, you are awesome, love your replies!

"the Blizzcon Lesbian" title.


This would be so epic!
85 Goblin Death Knight
1490
I have to ask, where does this "equality" stop with adding this or that into the game? To make myself perfectly clear, in any real life meaningful way I support true equality for everyone. I think gay people should be allowed any right or privilege anyone else has. Same goes for race, religion, and anything else, we are all human beings.

That said, in WoW, where does it stop? If you have a gay couple, better add a trans gender person, then the other gay couple (m/m instead of f/f or vice versa). After that, we'll need to represent all religion I suppose, all political affiliations... I demand fury couples, bdsm master/slaves, a troll with a foot fetish... If you leave out any of these things it clearly means you loathe them, and wish to marginalize their entire community...

Yes, I'm being hyperbolic, but I'm trying to get a point across. I don't think it's wrong for gay couples or transgender characters to end up in WoW, but I think it's not as simple as that either. You can try to keep things kind of generic and non inflammatory or you can try to represent everything and damn the backlash.

But I am serious about the question, it's not rhetorical. You want *your* view represented of course, but who do you leave out? Or do you cram anything anyone wants in because they should be represented here too?

85 Human Paladin
11570

it's indeed a weird argument, justifying doing it because animals do it.

animals also do a lot of things you dont see humans doing. in the case of lions, killing their offspring at times.

should we pick that one up too? well technically with abortion...debatably...anyway. point stands. we're looking at things below us on evolution scale for guidance? why are we looking behind instead of ahead?


He was trying to explain that the argument that homosexuality is "unnatural" is invalid.


that's very good...I was making a different argument. I was claiming that natural/unnatural shouldn't be relevant.

we do a lot of unnatural things. ever been inside a steel mill? or any plant with an assembly line?

we're well beyond 'natural' in our daily activities from driving to internet and wifi and alarm clocks and cell phones.

my point was looking at 'natural' stopped being relevant about 300 years ago.

edit: hell, the second we started cooking food and controlling fire and growing crops we starte stepping out of the 'natural".
Edited by Robokapp on 10/24/2011 1:13 AM PDT
90 Troll Shaman
11615
10/24/2011 01:08 AMPosted by Wollbane
Probably the most prominent gay NPC was if I recall miev (spelling).


Where was it ever indicated that Maiev was gay? Hell, her entire character revolves around relentlessly pursuing a man. If that's the shining beacon of a LBGT character in WoW, I think they're owed a refund.

10/24/2011 01:07 AMPosted by Keelurself
If someone has the right to Express their support of an idea or circumstance, then people as well have the right to express against it..


Which also means they're free to deal with the consequences of being called out as moronic bigots. Having to deal with the consequences of your actions is the part of "freedom" people tend to forget about.
85 Night Elf Rogue
5065
For a moment of seriousness...

Animals were brought up because of the core of homophobia. Whether you claim it's wrong because of religion or because it's not natural, the argument does a pretty good job of disproving it. It's a natural thing and to claim otherwise is simply ignorant.

Now onto the OP, or rather what the discussion has turned into. If we all take a moment to actually read the OP, we'll see she states she doesn't particularly want LGBT relationships within WoW, but rather she wonders if there will be any in any franchise released by Blizzard. I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say that a few major lore characters might be gay. It might even be interesting to tell a story about a gay couple within one of the franchises. There are books based on the lore, after all =P

Addressing people saying it's pushing their sexuality onto you - No it isn't. Not anymore than straight relationships are pushing your sexuality onto them. Either way, it's a stupid thing to say. If I say I'm gay, I'm not asking you to be gay. That's a stupid translation.

Addressing people arguing whether it's okay to be gay or not - You're all idiots. Seriously. Gay opinion is called wrong by (what we'll call side B, to avoid false labels) side B, side B is called intolerant by LGBT supporters, side B says it's not right, LGBT calls them bigots....Look, I don't care what side you're on, but please don't call people out on their opinions. Because someone doesn't think being gay is right doesn't make them ignorant. It makes them human. And vice-versa.

Addressing the OP - If I make an alt, can I join your guild? =D
I don't think it's wrong for gay couples or transgender characters to end up in WoW, but I think it's not as simple as that either. You can try to keep things kind of generic and non inflammatory or you can try to represent everything and damn the backlash.

But I am serious about the question, it's not rhetorical. You want *your* view represented of course, but who do you leave out? Or do you cram anything anyone wants in because they should be represented here too?


This is the ONLY legitimate counterpoint I've seen here.
Edited by Hoernbeme on 10/24/2011 1:14 AM PDT
85 Human Hunter
3285
Troll with a foot fetish lawl
90 Tauren Druid
17990
Lady Sacrolash & Grand Warlock Alythess
85 Orc Death Knight
4295
Okay, here is my .2 I suppose.

As far as many people saying "because heterosexual couples are in the game, they are excluding homosexual couples."

Last time I checked, you cannot exclude something that does not exist. NOW HOLD UP DONT FREAK OUT YET KIDS

Azeroth =/= Earth

Yes, homosexual couples exist on earth. If it was a game based around the lore and timeline of EARTH I could see this argument having solid ground.

Azeroth is purely fictional. (and don't even say 'well it has humans so it must be based on real humans') If heterosexual couples are the only kind Azeroth has ever had, then thats all they will have until Blizzard decides they want to make a change and add any kind of homosexual couple. Asking for it is perfectly okay, but people making an uproar AGAINST Blizzard or people causing a uproar against the uproarers is silly.

There is no reason to cause this much hoobla about a simple question. I applaud you for asking, and I am sorry that the general WoW community has turned this mole hill into such a bloody mountain.
I have to ask, where does this "equality" stop with adding this or that into the game? To make myself perfectly clear, in any real life meaningful way I support true equality for everyone. I think gay people should be allowed any right or privilege anyone else has. Same goes for race, religion, and anything else, we are all human beings.

That said, in WoW, where does it stop? If you have a gay couple, better add a trans gender person, then the other gay couple (m/m instead of f/f or vice versa). After that, we'll need to represent all religion I suppose, all political affiliations... I demand fury couples, bdsm master/slaves, a troll with a foot fetish... If you leave out any of these things it clearly means you loathe them, and wish to marginalize their entire community...

Yes, I'm being hyperbolic, but I'm trying to get a point across. I don't think it's wrong for gay couples or transgender characters to end up in WoW, but I think it's not as simple as that either. You can try to keep things kind of generic and non inflammatory or you can try to represent everything and damn the backlash.

But I am serious about the question, it's not rhetorical. You want *your* view represented of course, but who do you leave out? Or do you cram anything anyone wants in because they should be represented here too?



Slippery slope fallacy, shut up.
Edited by Kassiel on 10/24/2011 1:15 AM PDT
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