LFR Loot Rules: Questions and Quirks

85 Night Elf Druid
12205
Since the LFR has been going on now for a bit and I can't seem to pick apart the dribble in the PTR Forums (if there is anything to find on the matter at all), I'll ask my questions and voice my concerns here.

Back when we first heard about the Need+ Roll that would go out to those rolling on loot for their selected role, there were some initial concerns. Specifically the concerns were with those of us that have odd gearing paradigms and share across roles: notably Druids and Death Knights.

As it stands, as far as I know anyway, loot is merely restricted by all the usual rules already in place (Leather users only can roll on Leather, can only roll on weapons you can equip, etc) as well as by Role (Tank, DPS, Healer). Where I am concerned is how Ferals and DKs come into play with these loot rules. Plate users obviously have little to worry about: the item is a Tank Plate item, it is listed (hidden unfortunately) as Tank Role, and thus even if DPS Pallies/Wars/DKs roll for it using Need, the Tank hitting Need gets the bonus 100 to their roll.

However, the question comes up for the weirdos like me.

First of all, is DPS Leather simultaneously marked as Tank and DPS? If yes, then unfortunately I have to just chance it against every DPSer that is eligible. If no, then Ferals are just boned if they are Tanking because all the loot they normally would take is automatically handed to the DPS.

Second, is any distinction made between DPS Casters and DPS Melee? This would be weird in the case of DPS Druids (Balance and Feral) and DPS Shaman (Enhancement and Elemental). The reason I ask is if there zero distinction made, then a Balance Druid could also be in my competition pool for all Agility DPS Leather and accessories.

Third, how does the first question (DPS Leather) labeling apply to rings/necklaces/cloaks/trinkets? For the most part, a lot of these items, even come weird caster or melee pieces, are capable of being rolled on by anyone in the 5mans, by virtue of being equippable (not necessarily usable). If labeled as both Tank/DPS for say an Agility ring, does that mean the other Plate user can roll against me just because? In the more likely case of just not labeling things like Matrix Restabilizer as Tank, again are Ferals just out to dry?

DKs have significantly fewer concerns when it comes to just weapons for them, shared with Ferals. Are polearms with Agility going to be labeled as Tank items? Are Strength 2handers? If yes, then we'll be on equal footing with the possibility of a Warrior/Paladin also rolling for a DPS item and taking advantage of the Tank tag. If no, then we're boned for our DPS weapons just like Ferals are potentially with their gear.

If anyone has tested or knows more, please enlighten this old bear. I'd much like to see Dragon Soul more than once just to kill the boss and see the lore. Loot, while not always the greatest of things, is still something I'd like to be able to acquire using LFR.
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85 Night Elf Druid
12205
Back to the first page to see if anyone knows anything new.
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85 Orc Warlock
10980
I'd like to know if rouges and hunters will still be able to roll need on strength items as they can now with the current system. It seems silly not to take in to account a player's primary stat. "Can equip" should be "can equip and has player's primary stat" when deciding if a payer can "need" the gear.

Practically all gear can be heuristically assigned to players based an item's stats and on the player's class and role. Every tree has exactly one primary stat. Every tree has minor stats they'd like or like to avoid. Warlocks don't need spirit, holy priests doesn't need hit, and rouges don't need dodge. I hope the new loot system at least handles the obvious cases (unlike the current system).
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90 Undead Warrior
7870
Fasc - I'd try reposting this in the dungeons and raids forum.
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Given the way they described the system, I have a feelin that they'll at the very least seperate casters from bein able to roll on the AGI gear, but aside from that its all fair game. Feral (and eventually Monk) tanks would get the joy of havin to always roll against dps for their gear while plate tanks get the luxury of bein able to take all the plate tank gear they want regardless if they need it or not.

In essence its fair between the leather wearers because otherwise the dps would have to deal with whether or not he/she wants the gear or not regardless of the dps wants, but between tanks it feels like a slight against the feral tanks that they don't get any preferential treatment like the plate tanks get.

Really though, the only thing I'm worried about is if they actually do allow casters to roll on the Agi gear and get the bonus because they're selected as the dps role. Blizzard did say that it was based off of role, not spec, so unless they make a rule set only for druids (and eventually monks), then its entirely possible that Feral tanks will have to roll against moonkin as well. If that happens, Blizzard might as well just scrap the entire idea since the perception would basically be that they completely screwed over the agi classes while makin it impossible for a plate tank to not get the gear they want.
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85 Dwarf Warrior
13030
You share loot tables with rogues/other ferals, not that broad, but there's no tanking leather, druids are of course balanced around wearing DPS gear with only slightly different gem/enchanting (since you actually use your primary requisite)

I think you're pretty much going to have the chance to roll on any leather with agi, jewelry with agi, and trinkets with stamina/mastery/tank like procs (I'm sure they'll flag them, and you'll also have the DPS agility trinkets)

for fairness though, agility leather has a slightly more common droprate than tank plate to compensate.
Edited by Asane on 11/7/2011 11:37 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
9270
<-- I gear for hit and expertise (I am aware that goes against conventional knowledge).

How does priority go for STR plate with some combination of hit/expertise on it?

I would imagine it would still be flagged as tank gear, seeing as some of my tier pieces have these stats, but a blue confirmation would be nice.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6815
Run with your guild
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<-- I gear for hit and expertise (I am aware that goes against conventional knowledge).

How does priority go for STR plate with some combination of hit/expertise on it?

I would imagine it would still be flagged as tank gear, seeing as some of my tier pieces have these stats, but a blue confirmation would be nice.


We probably wont get the nuts and bolts of the system until the next patch actually is ready to drop. Till then, we can speculate. Chances are that the only thing they have to seperate tank gear from dps gear is the presence of dodge/parry since the other stats are entirely ambiguous as to what role they are designed for.
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Community Manager
What we are doing for 4.3 with the Raid Finder looting system (detailed here:http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3608426) is an experiment in order to try and reduce loot drama without removing the chance to benefit from offspec gear completely. In fact, a lot of what we are trying with Raid Finder for 4.3 is our very first attempt at a design that is going to need a lot of iteration before we’re happy with how it works. We’ll use the information we gather on the new looting system (we can call it Need+, for simplicity's sake) and Raid Finder in 4.3 to make both features even better for Mists of Pandaria.

The game currently does not have a very robust notion of what your spec is, so for now we can’t make the loot rules very stringent, other than checking your current role. In Mists of Pandaria, the game will have a well-developed "concept" of spec, and we can do things like let an Enhancement shaman roll need plus on an Agility axe without letting the Restoration shaman roll need plus. (The Resto shaman could still roll need though, since shaman can use axes and the player might presumably have an Enhancement offspec.)
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
11/07/2011 04:03 PMPosted by Daxxarri
The game currently does not have a very robust notion of what your spec is, so for now we can’t make the loot rules very stringent, other than checking your current role. In Mists of Pandaria, the game will have a well-developed "concept" of spec, and we can do things like let an Enhancement shaman roll need plus on an Agility axe without letting the Restoration shaman roll need plus. (The Resto shaman could still roll need though, since shaman can use axes and the player might presumably have an Enhancement offspec.)


What about Enhancement vs Elemental? Both are shaman flagged as DPS. Can they both roll need on agi mail as well as int mail and get the Need+ bonus?
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81 Gnome Death Knight
10100
Thanks for the link, Daxx.

Or more specifically, http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3341754864.

However I believe the questions are closer to

"Is agility leather marked as a dps and tanking item so that bears can roll on it without automatically losing to rogues?"

and

"What about staves, polearms, rings, trinkets, necklaces and the like which ferals and DKs use?"

For the first plate tanks can't roll need due to armor type so this shouldn't have a negative consequence since the bonus only applies to the need roll.

For the second this one could get complicated.

Edit: Clarified a question.
Edited by Kahzregi on 11/7/2011 4:18 PM PST
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90 Draenei Warrior
13785
Ahh, I didn't realise that the game didn't have a proper distinction between spec, although that makes sense. But yeah, what Kahz said really. All the staves, rings, necks and so on that druids use, and DKs using two-handers to tank. Are those going to be Need+able by tanks? And, more importantly, are they not going to be Need+able by warrior and pally tanks?
-----
Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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1 Gnome Rogue
0
What about Enhancement vs Elemental? Both are shaman flagged as DPS. Can they both roll need on agi mail as well as int mail and get the Need+ bonus?


"Is agility leather marked as a dps and tanking item so that bears can roll on it without automatically losing to rogues?"

and

"What about staves, polearms, rings, trinkets, necklaces and the like which ferals and DKs use?"


I believe what the blue was getting at is, right now there are some very blurry lines. Just like these. In the case of elemental and enhancement, the lines are very clear. You have mail caster dps vs mail physical dps. There is no grey area. They are coded as caster and physical.

Kahz's question is actually showing where the lines blurr. Bear tanks wear very similar gear to kitty druids/rogues. Same with DK weapons and some tank plate. Mastery and hit/experties is useful to both tanks and dps for instance. The difference will be how it's reforged. But you can also add in hybrid casters. Since spirit is just as useful for caster dps/healy shamans, druids and priests so the lines are not as clear as Mage vs healy priest.

11/07/2011 04:03 PMPosted by Daxxarri
The game currently does not have a very robust notion of what your spec is, so for now we can’t make the loot rules very stringent, other than checking your current role. In Mists of Pandaria, the game will have a well-developed "concept" of spec


It will be very nice in mists when these lines are cut and dry. But I think what some of us are looking for right now is, where will the lines cross and where will they not. Will a blood dk get the plus bonus for the 2hander since they use the same weapon to tank that a fury warrior uses to dps? Will hybrid casters get the plus on spirit gear, since it's been very important for them (even boomkin tier gear has spirit instead of hit).

In a nutshell, will the plus bonus work with the current set up or will it be designed around the next x-pac where these lines will not be as blurred. If it's based around Mists it means it's going to be a bit of a broken system till then, and thus our concern.

(And yes, I accept the reason for current blurred lines. It makes it easier for people to switch specs and go from dps to heal/tank and I'm completely cool with this concept. I'm just worried it will cause gearing issues under the new loot rules)
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90 Pandaren Warrior
11565
How will tier piece ninjaing be handled in LFR? Will LFR loot system check to see if you have a tier piece for your chosen spec already?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10165
Whilst your concerns appear valid and rational, gut instinct say you will be no worse off than the current LFD system in place now. Really you will be better off by default.

Some oddities are bound to show up and will get ironed out by Mists (where it appears this *may* get applied to LFD too).

Also, I am curious if you can still trade items won using Need+ to another raider who wants it? If so do you still count as having looted from that boss? Does the other raider now count as having looted from that boss? This seems to be the truly expoitable area. (Note: This may have been answered before - if so /ignore me ;p)
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
11/07/2011 04:46 PMPosted by Finkathy
I believe what the blue was getting at is, right now there are some very blurry lines. Just like these. In the case of elemental and enhancement, the lines are very clear. You have mail caster dps vs mail physical dps. There is no grey area. They are coded as caster and physical.


That's not what he said, though. He said that the game doesn't really know what spec you are right now--just what your role is and what your class is. So currently an elemental shaman and an enhancement shaman are exactly the same as far as the game is concerned.
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90 Draenei Warrior
13785
Yeah, from what Daxx said, both ele and enhance will be able to Need+ on both agi and int mail.

EDIT: Although, the spirit cloth being useful for shadow priests but not mages thing is interesting too.
-----
Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
Edited by Waniou on 11/7/2011 4:57 PM PST
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- World of Warcraft
90 Night Elf Druid
11830
Could we get something like a chart that says what kind of gear the hybrid classes will actually have access to under the Need+ system? Some specs like feral right now are both tanks & DPS. How will the system know what items a feral bear can Need+ on?
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85 Human Warlock
11095
Can I roll disenchant plus since I am an enchanter? Or will others still be allowed to steal my tradeskill?
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