Mastery raid buff

90 Human Warrior
11110
I'm sorry I like having a god stat, stacking armor was fun, stacking mastery is fun. Competing with plate DPS for gear so I can get hit/expertise to survive is frustrating and convoluted.

Don't assume all players want so called "interesting choices" when they just might be happy with the way things are. I have loved playing a warrior tank for 6 years now....

Because its been stable, why do you want to break that?

85 Night Elf Druid
12205
I'm sorry I like having a god stat, stacking armor was fun, stacking mastery is fun. Competing with plate DPS for gear so I can get hit/expertise to survive is frustrating and convoluted.

Don't assume all players want so called "interesting choices" when they just might be happy with the way things are. I have loved playing a warrior tank for 6 years now....

Because its been stable, why do you want to break that?


Because apparently there are more of us that want to have more than one interesting stat in the range of stats we see often on our gear than not.

Furthermore, you assume that the only way to get Hit or Expertise reliably is going to be stealing from the DPS Plate users, which isn't necessarily true at all given we have many examples of Hit/Dodge, Hit/Parry, Exp/Dodge, and Exp/Parry items in the game. Plus those more ambiguous pieces of Hit or Exp/Mastery items.

Oh and forgive me as a Druid for not feeling sorry for poor lil you having to maybe compete for 1-3 slots of gear for said Hit or Exp/Mastery against DPS. I'll be over here competing for literally every slot against a DPS, some not even of my armor type.

Finally, stability is the wrong word to use. The god stat of Mastery is too strong because Blocking as currently implemented is too strong. By fixing that, because that is causing balancing issues across the board (and thus creating instability), other stats will naturally bubble higher to the surface and just "stack X" won't necessarily be the case at all times.

Nice try, no dice, "don't nerf me bro" is duly noted.
85 Troll Warrior
11395
Its still pretty obvious when an exp mastery item is a tank item though given socket bonuses and str itemization. Well except for the heroic shannox belt but thats due to lack of better choices for dps.
90 Human Warrior
13005
11/11/2011 09:40 AMPosted by Hooves
fury parses on Baleroc are 1-4k higher than every other melee.
Baleroc
Baleroc's the most favorable fight to melee this tier. Ranged have to move, which does impair their DPS a lot more than melee. Melee literally do not lose any DPS from the movement on Baleroc.

...Right. That's one of the reasons why I only compared fury to the other melee specs.
100 Blood Elf Priest
15250
11/11/2011 10:47 AMPosted by Fasc
Because apparently there are more of us that want to have more than one interesting stat in the range of stats we see often on our gear than not.


I generally agree with what you wrote, but this bit has me thinking.

Specifically as a Disc priest, there's an oddity in stat selection. We want lots of our primary stat and a decent amount of spirit, but when it comes to the other secondaries, they're all about equally interesting. We have no haste breakpoints, our mastery is decent, and crit has a mechanic attached to it that makes it (perhaps unexpectedly, for a caster/healer) valuable.

The upshot is that, unless we're tunneling a specific healing style, we don't particularly care about secondary stats.

Put another way, it's possible to have too much balance.
100 Troll Druid
9055
11/11/2011 10:47 AMPosted by Fasc
Because apparently there are more of us that want to have more than one interesting stat in the range of stats we see often on our gear than not.


There already is most than one interesting stat on our gear.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
I can agree with that Nerf: if everything is equally appealing... nothing is.

I believe Feral DPS is in a sort of similar boat in that you can generally stack Mastery/Haste/Crit in no particular order and come out about the same as anyone else. It is a bit easier to math out DPS output than it is to theorize about Healing so there is definitely a right answer (I think it is Haste for FL gear and beyond), but they're close enough to not warrant big to do's over screaming and shouting about which to reforge to what.

In my mind, ideally speaking, our stats wouldn't necessarily cap but would leap frog one another a bit, so I guess soft cap like the way Haste can and does for casters and such. Or similar to how Dodge/Parry are kept close to each other thanks to DR gaming. With resources mattering for all of us, on a Druid I would LIKE to see that when you go too far into the realm of Crit, it gets weaker compared to gains in Haste, and vice versa. Not sure how that would work exactly but I hope I get my point across.

I realize such fine tuning of gear each upgrade is very loathsome to many people though so I don't expect that to be Blizzard's goal at all. But a bit of that with a bit of stacking a primary/secondary stat would be nice.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
11/11/2011 11:12 AMPosted by Fishnchips
Because apparently there are more of us that want to have more than one interesting stat in the range of stats we see often on our gear than not.


There already is most than one interesting stat on our gear.


Compared to Dodge, nothing is interesting, and we don't even get Dodge. You could honestly reforge the OTHER stat on your gear to Dodge instead of whatever you currently have selected and you would probably see more difference based on less Dodge gained than having picked to reforge Crit over Hit.

Dodge is just so far ahead of every other single stat we can possibly obtain outside of Agility that the rest are just about the same as each other (aside from Haste which is nearly nil in value), and all way down the totem pole.
100 Troll Druid
9055
11/11/2011 11:18 AMPosted by Fasc


There already is most than one interesting stat on our gear.


Compared to Dodge, nothing is interesting, and we don't even get Dodge. You could honestly reforge the OTHER stat on your gear to Dodge instead of whatever you currently have selected and you would probably see more difference based on less Dodge gained than having picked to reforge Crit over Hit.

Dodge is just so far ahead of every other single stat we can possibly obtain outside of Agility that the rest are just about the same as each other (aside from Haste which is nearly nil in value), and all way down the totem pole.


It's true, but like you said, it's still not on any of our gear without reforging. That means that gear with crit/mastery is going to be more desirable than gear with anything else. Expertise is also currently good for Bears, so there's another choice.

And like you said, haste is something we want to avoid.

I think my problem is that we are perpetuating this notion that we only care about one stat. But we don't, we clearly have Best in Slot gear based on stats that are not dodge and not agility.

Sure, we only REFORGE to one stat, but we gem for another, and we collect gear that has others.

I like the current paradigm of hit and expertise being an ok choice depending on what we're doing. But I do NOT like the idea of making us "want" it more, as that just reminds me of having to juggle around annoying caps.
85 Tauren Warrior
8120
11/11/2011 11:01 AMPosted by Nerfheals
The upshot is that, unless we're tunneling a specific healing style, we don't particularly care about secondary stats.


on the other hand, there's something like holy paladins where you can take a spirit/haste or crit/mastery build.

I don't know if that's actually an issue of being 'too balanced'. I think it's an issue of reforges not being enough to have a noticeable impact. Maybe with static mana pools blizzard will give us better ratings conversion.

And maybe they'll take primary stats off gems.
Edited by Mooclane on 11/11/2011 11:32 AM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12205


It's true, but like you said, it's still not on any of our gear without reforging. That means that gear with crit/mastery is going to be more desirable than gear with anything else. Expertise is also currently good for Bears, so there's another choice.

And like you said, haste is something we want to avoid.

I think my problem is that we are perpetuating this notion that we only care about one stat. But we don't, we clearly have Best in Slot gear based on stats that are not dodge and not agility.

Bears are essentially boiled down to this:
Grab highest ilvl
Stuff sockets full of Agility
Reforge biggest rating to Dodge

You do those things and chances are you actually have achieved 95% of the BiS gearing and reforging scheme. The oddities will be things like eating away a ton of Mastery instead of Hit on a piece perhaps, but the differences are going to be slim.

That's why I consider Crit, Mastery, Haste, Hit, and Expertise to be very much uninteresting. They all compete for 2nd place and 2nd place isn't even remotely close to 1st.
100 Troll Druid
9055


It's true, but like you said, it's still not on any of our gear without reforging. That means that gear with crit/mastery is going to be more desirable than gear with anything else. Expertise is also currently good for Bears, so there's another choice.

And like you said, haste is something we want to avoid.

I think my problem is that we are perpetuating this notion that we only care about one stat. But we don't, we clearly have Best in Slot gear based on stats that are not dodge and not agility.

Bears are essentially boiled down to this:
Grab highest ilvl
Stuff sockets full of Agility
Reforge biggest rating to Dodge

You do those things and chances are you actually have achieved 95% of the BiS gearing and reforging scheme. The oddities will be things like eating away a ton of Mastery instead of Hit on a piece perhaps, but the differences are going to be slim.

That's why I consider Crit, Mastery, Haste, Hit, and Expertise to be very much uninteresting. They all compete for 2nd place and 2nd place isn't even remotely close to 1st.


I'm sorry, but that is a vast oversimplification.

Most class gearing schemes you to boil down to something similar.

A hunter in PvP gear, for example, is going to be able to get a good chunk of the way there, but there is PvE gear that is better.

The same goes bears. Sure, we could boil it down, like you just did, but there are actual BiS items that are better than other items. To ignore that is to be somewhat dishonest.
85 Undead Hunter
1920
Are Druid goings to be the best tanks now because their gear already has hit/exp on it?
85 Night Elf Druid
12205


I'm sorry, but that is a vast oversimplification.

Not really unfortunately.

Tier Helm, Crit/Hit. There is more Hit than Crit, reforging it gives the best result.
Rag Neck, Haste/Mastery. There is more Haste than Mastery, reforging it gives the best result.
Tier Shoulder, Crit/Mastery. There is more Mastery than Crit, reforging it gives the best result. This would actually be contrary to a more complicated Mastery >> Crit idea (which is true) if you didn't bother to weigh the amounts against each other. The simple method comes out ahead in this case.

Cloak follows the expected case, Tier Chest is exactly like Tier Shoulder, you reforge the Mastery to Dodge for best results.

In fact I can't find a single item where you SHOULDN'T reforge the highest value rating, regardless of what it is, for the purpose of maximizing your damage reduction.



Most class gearing schemes you to boil down to something similar.

A hunter in PvP gear, for example, is going to be able to get a good chunk of the way there, but there is PvE gear that is better.

I'll grant that several classes are as simpleminded and boring as Feral Tanks, although which I could not say, I don't track such things outside of Tanking. Doesn't change the fact that more interesting gearing paradigms would be welcomed for some specs that already have king stat issues.


The same goes bears. Sure, we could boil it down, like you just did, but there are actual BiS items that are better than other items. To ignore that is to be somewhat dishonest.

My point was pretty much on: you can come damn close to the BiS list without knowing the intricacies of how Crit is valued against Exp or Mastery provided you stack our king stat: Dodge.

EDIT: Derped a stat and swapped something to not make sense.
Edited by Fasc on 11/11/2011 12:23 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
11/11/2011 11:47 AMPosted by Zephry
Are Druid goings to be the best tanks now because their gear already has hit/exp on it?


Probably troll but just in case not...

Plate Tank pieces have Hit/Expertise as well, BiS lists just currently shun them.
85 Draenei Warrior
0
11/11/2011 12:23 PMPosted by Fasc
Are Druid goings to be the best tanks now because their gear already has hit/exp on it?


Probably troll but just in case not...

Plate Tank pieces have Hit/Expertise as well, BiS lists just currently shun them.

i guess the better question to ask would have been "are they going to retune old items so that they fit the new model, or are all tanks leveling going to have a ton of gear to avoid?"
85 Troll Warrior
11395
I doubt they would change the gear since new expansions (or rather the patch before the expansion release like 4.0.1) usually come with a significant power boost and raid nerf so the gear your wearing doesn't matter as much.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
11/11/2011 12:31 PMPosted by Xurk


Probably troll but just in case not...

Plate Tank pieces have Hit/Expertise as well, BiS lists just currently shun them.

i guess the better question to ask would have been "are they going to retune old items so that they fit the new model, or are all tanks leveling going to have a ton of gear to avoid?"


I'm not sure what there is to avoid to begin with.

When in Vanilla, there isn't much in the way of Tanking gear to begin with so generally you just snag higher level plate items with a smattering of Stamina and plow on. Beyond that there are more specific items but there has been Hit/Expertise pieces throughout TBC and moreso in Wrath.

Furthermore, we have no clue what they're doing with our stats yet. We might all see the great ilvl squish and suddenly everything gets turned on its head.
100 Troll Druid
9055


I'm sorry, but that is a vast oversimplification.

Not really unfortunately.

Tier Helm, Crit/Hit. There is more Hit than Crit, reforging it gives the best result.
Rag Neck, Haste/Mastery. There is more Haste than Mastery, reforging it gives the best result.
Tier Shoulder, Crit/Mastery. There is more Mastery than Crit, reforging it gives the best result. This would actually be contrary to a more complicated Mastery >> Crit idea (which is true) if you didn't bother to weigh the amounts against each other. The simple method comes out ahead in this case.

Cloak follows the expected case, Tier Chest is exactly like Tier Shoulder, you reforge the Mastery to Dodge for best results.

In fact I can't find a single item where you SHOULDN'T reforge the highest value rating, regardless of what it is, for the purpose of maximizing your damage reduction.



Most class gearing schemes you to boil down to something similar.

A hunter in PvP gear, for example, is going to be able to get a good chunk of the way there, but there is PvE gear that is better.

I'll grant that several classes are as simpleminded and boring as Feral Tanks, although which I could not say, I don't track such things outside of Tanking. Doesn't change the fact that more interesting gearing paradigms would be welcomed for some specs that already have king stat issues.


The same goes bears. Sure, we could boil it down, like you just did, but there are actual BiS items that are better than other items. To ignore that is to be somewhat dishonest.

My point was pretty much on: you can come damn close to the BiS list without knowing the intricacies of how Crit is valued against Exp or Mastery provided you stack our king stat: Dodge.

EDIT: Derped a stat and swapped something to not make sense.


*sigh* you're probably right.

But I question whether making hit and expertise more important to us is going to make it any better. We're going to be in one of two situations:

1. Where are secondary stats are approximately equal in value.
2. Where they are not equal in value.

We live in option 2 right now, and unless we change to option 1 for the next expansion, our reforging and gemming is still going to be the same.

As long as there is a hierarchy of stats, then reforging and gemming isn't going to involved much "interesting choice."

I feel like a better solution would be to get crit and mastery up to the same level as dodge, rather than adding two more into the mix (hit/exp).
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
I think it is less binary than that Fish.

1 - Stats are all very equal and thus choice is rather irrelevant. (I don't like this)
2 - Stats are not equal, but close. Furthermore, stats don't stay in the same place relative to each other as they increase and change, thus lists can rearrange from tier to tier. (I like this)
3 - Stats are not equal, but close. Flip flopping and ordering never change and best stats continue to get better. (I don't like this)
4 - Stats are not equal and not close. The same flip flopping can happen but takes absurd values to do so. (I don't like this)
5 - Stats are not equal and not close. The flip flopping never happens and best stats continue to get better. (I don't like this)

Adding Hit/Expertise to the mix of survivability stats completely hinges upon implementation. Let's say for simplicity's sake that Hit/Exp grant us X amount of increased Rage. Haste gives us Y to our Rage regen, Crit gives us Z, and Mastery does nothing for Rage, nor does Dodge. Rage somehow magically grants us 1% additional survivability for every additional 1% of Rage gain we can achieve.

If this actually becomes the case, then there could be more than one way to gear up for best results, and best results could be debatable. When there is a question or a "But what about this..." still there that can seriously be debated and backed, that is an interesting enough point for me. It could be Haste stacking really amps up our Rage which really beefs us up overall... but Dodge stacking could do something similar but uses mechanics out of our control... or...

I don't think the Devs are just trying to make Hit/Exp matter for the sake of them mattering. This whole still nebulous idea of Active Mitigation is in the works where we build and use resources actively while Tanking to keep ourselves alive and our opponents focused on us, but mostly keeping us alive. Hit/Exp feature in this nicely in that if Rage is our resource and we use offensive attacks to build/generate Rage... then hey you gotta land your attacks! But that also has secondary effects on things like Critical Strike (which may still grant double Rage) and Haste (depending on how autoattacks generating Rage will work in MoP). By making Rage important to Tanking, all our stats take on slightly deeper meaning, including Hit/Expertise.

That's what I'm gathering thus far anyway, but we'll see how exactly they proceed and how successful they are at creating something that works that isn't too far removed from the game we have known thus far.
Edited by Fasc on 11/11/2011 1:08 PM PST
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