Mastery raid buff

90 Human Paladin
13020

I'm not telling them what to do with their employees, I never did. I was agreeing with the statement that I'd rather see the focus on new content rather on revamping things that don't need to be revamped.

For example:

Wrath: tanks need hit and expertise
Cata: Ok, we want tanks to focus just on defense stats.
MoP: never mind, we want them to need hit and expertise again.

It just strikes me as wasteful. What are they doing over there? Can we have some focus please?


Wrath: Tanks need some hit and expertise.
Cat: Taunts having a chance to fail isn't compelling, so Taunts will hit. This devalues hit/exp but for the moment, we're outside the scope of making changes mid-expansion to push in active mitigation which is how we'd want tanks to value hit/exp for defensive benefits and not just "I need this to not wipe the raid". We won't make major changes now because making major changes mid-expansion is bad mojo.
MoP: New expansion, mechanics reset. This is a suitable time to implement the active mitigation concept we've had in plan.

You don't see the focus because you're trying not to.


I would argue that the MoP focus on hit/exp isn't an equal analog to either the Wrath or Cata stances towards the stats. The problem that Blizzard is going to face with this design goal is that they have two options. They either make hit/exp more effective for survivability than dodge/parry/mastery, or they don't.

If they are better than pure defensive stats, then they become the new defacto defense cap. And it might get to the point where tanks are jacking DPS gear again to ensure they can hit those caps.

If they aren't better than dodge/parry/mastery, then they get more or less ignored in favor of superior defensive stats, and any anoying rng induced crashes akin to missed taunts, or choked resource generation, gets laid at the feet of Blizzard's poor design goals.

They've got a reall small target to hit here, and they can't err one way or another. It's going to need a lot more precision than the post cata release "numbers pass".
81 Gnome Death Knight
10100
11/11/2011 01:07 PMPosted by Fasc
2 - Stats are not equal, but close. Furthermore, stats don't stay in the same place relative to each other as they increase and change, thus lists can rearrange from tier to tier. (I like this)


This is certainly optimal, but I think it should be important that a stat priority shift should be made somewhat obvious.

While you, I and the rest of the forum posters have no issue with going to a website to look up information it would seem most don't.

I'm not saying we should "dumb down" the game but it's more from a design purist view. If you can't figure something out with the default UI then it's broken.

With the new hit / expertise layout in addition to the never looked at game tip I would say these are obvious breakpoints.

The 102.4% CTC cap is sort of obvious. I mean getting to 100% is close. But the 5% from miss and the extra 2.4% for most of the population is a magical number assuming they even know about it.

The old defense stat was just bad from this angle.
90 Troll Druid
8840
11/11/2011 01:20 PMPosted by Kahzregi
2 - Stats are not equal, but close. Furthermore, stats don't stay in the same place relative to each other as they increase and change, thus lists can rearrange from tier to tier. (I like this)


This is certainly optimal, but I think it should be important that a stat priority shift should be made somewhat obvious.

While you, I and the rest of the forum posters have no issue with going to a website to look up information it would seem most don't.

I'm not saying we should "dumb down" the game but it's more from a design purist view. If you can't figure something out with the default UI then it's broken.

With the new hit / expertise layout in addition to the never looked at game tip I would say these are obvious breakpoints.

The 102.4% CTC cap is sort of obvious. I mean getting to 100% is close. But the 5% from miss and the extra 2.4% for most of the population is a magical number assuming they even know about it.

The old defense stat was just bad from this angle.


I would agree with this. I think it's a little bit of a pain to expect everyone to go and research which stats are now the most powerful every single patch.

On some level it's nice to know which stats are best for which specs, and to know that's not going to change arbitrarily.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
Yeah and there's that as well Kahz, but that's why I said stats are close. Personally I want there to be ideals that DO need a bit of mathing out to eek out that last 3% or so of optimization, the kind of optimization that really doesn't heavily impact anything at all.

The stat changes should be very obvious on caps, like Hit and Expertise, and thankfully the UI shows that nicely without any hidden nuances. But for say a Druid balancing Crit and Haste, the stats need to be close enough that if someone completely going on their own and not knowing ANY theorycrafting just stacks Crit til the end of time, he won't be a horrible, bad, terrible Druid for not evening that out with some Haste.

Dodge/Parry interaction works like this a bit. You can stack JUST Dodge if you want and ignore Parry, or you can build them alongside each other for better effect. In the world of Block Mastery it IS a big deal if you're not optimized correctly because it can mean capping or missing by a few percents, but outside of that world, going all Dodge won't necessarily end your career. It isn't ideal, but it isn't so absurdly broken of a poor choice that you will fail for it.

It is a tough line to toe though...
81 Gnome Death Knight
10100
Yeah and there's that as well Kahz, but that's why I said stats are close. Personally I want there to be ideals that DO need a bit of mathing out to eek out that last 3% or so of optimization, the kind of optimization that really doesn't heavily impact anything at all.

The stat changes should be very obvious on caps, like Hit and Expertise, and thankfully the UI shows that nicely without any hidden nuances. But for say a Druid balancing Crit and Haste, the stats need to be close enough that if someone completely going on their own and not knowing ANY theorycrafting just stacks Crit til the end of time, he won't be a horrible, bad, terrible Druid for not evening that out with some Haste.

Dodge/Parry interaction works like this a bit. You can stack JUST Dodge if you want and ignore Parry, or you can build them alongside each other for better effect. In the world of Block Mastery it IS a big deal if you're not optimized correctly because it can mean capping or missing by a few percents, but outside of that world, going all Dodge won't necessarily end your career. It isn't ideal, but it isn't so absurdly broken of a poor choice that you will fail for it.

It is a tough line to toe though...


I'll agree with that.

As you said, hard caps are important to know about. The game should let you know about those. In Wrath I saw a number of casters running around with things like 25% hit.

Soft caps, like haste breakpoints, are kind of weird though. For some specs (not tanks though) they're very important. Really I'd like to see on the tooltip on spells effected by haste that show the number of ticks with current haste and how much haste is required for the next tick.

For stuff like parry vs dodge on DR or how haste would effect rage I really have no idea off the top of my head how to show that.
49 Draenei Shaman
410
Sorry, I'm not going to bother reading 90% of this back and forth bickering between 2-3 people. I apologize in advance.

I simply don't understand the ideal of stacking hit/expertise in terms of survival stats. That, simply poses the same issue as what the "defense" cap did back in Wrath. It's really the same end result, but different side of the coin. We currently are not balanced around having Hit/Expertise, yet another reasoning we were giving for defense being removed because it was another stat tacked on.

This leads me to believe on thing, and one thing only.

Agility is a god stat for Druids, and honestly no-one can really deny this. I personally think, Dodge/Parry rating are going bye bye next expansion and we're intern getting Hit/Expertise instead. STR, will likely be our "god" stat for plate tanks.

I'm already at the point where I have to balance Mastery/Parry/Dodge to maintain CTC without much spill over. That's 3 stats that I need to balance, and that's annoying and a pain in the rear to handle most of the time in terms of how most players attempt to balance our gemming (which, partially is an issue because current plate tanks do not have a "god" stat like Druids at this point in gearing). When you change that from 3 stats, to 5 stats. That's bad design.

I'm calling it right now, Prot(s) and Blood will get a higher STR -> Parry coefficient than other specs (if they get any, which isn't a buff or nerf really for Ret/Fury/Frost). AGL still does more than STR, so are we going to see STR providing Crit as well?

What is this accomplishing at the end of the day?

Nothing really, outside of more reliability in our TPS. That ship was already sailed whenever Blizzard nearly doubled out our TPS. Worrying about Defense cap was a problem, worrying about CTC cap is a problem, and next expansion this magical fix is to give us reliable damage reduction through Hit/Expertise. That's a huge step backwards, keep in mind CTC cap was a joke to begin with. Really, at the end of the day we'll still most likely be capping two stats (instead of one) then proceeding to mindlessly stack one stat.

Same problem, worse solution.
85 Draenei Warrior
9495
I'm not sure what there is to avoid to begin with.

Vanilla was rewritten from the ground up, there are now tanking items with dodge and parry on them from level 1 to 60, and they are well done. Heirlooms as well.
BC and Wrath also have obvious tanking items.

my concern is what happened when defense went away. several items got screwed up in the process.
It was even worse when spell power went away. they changed several items that had 3 stat splits into 2 stat items, the budget was way off at that point and the items came out as crap compared to other items that used to be only meh.

yes, i agree you level fast, but if it turns out that tanks are always better served by first maxing out hit and exp for instance, then low level tanks would be stealing DPS gear as often as possible and avoiding the "bad" tanking gear that lack those stats.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205

I simply don't understand the ideal of stacking hit/expertise in terms of survival stats. That, simply poses the same issue as what the "defense" cap did back in Wrath. It's really the same end result, but different side of the coin. We currently are not balanced around having Hit/Expertise, yet another reasoning we were giving for defense being removed because it was another stat tacked on.

Disagree completely.

Unlike the Defense capping where you were progressively taking less damage while leaving yourself open for large spikes that could gib you or nearly so, Hit/Expertise aren't nearly so detrimental when below the cap, at least as far as anyone can tell just yet.

The closest thing in game currently I can think of is the DK model with Deathstrikes and how Haste affects that process. Without ANY Haste a DK can generate X amount of DS's and get Y amount of shielding/healing for themselves. You increase Haste and you increase X and Y in some continuous manner, thereby increasing defensiveness and self-healing. It isn't a sudden change from random spikes to no spikes, just occasional absorption/healing to often absorption/healing.

This is how I believe Hit/Expertise are going to work for us in that if you have absolutely none, you're that DK that only fires a few DS a minute because you simply don't build resources enough to fire more. If you push both Hit and Expertise all the way to the cap, you'll fire a ton out, but you won't suddenly have a constant steady stream of absorptions such that you never take an unmitigated hit.

This would be ideal in that it isn't paramount to cap them (unless Taunts start missing again or getting at/near cap allows a "Block Cap" scenario to occur in a Tank) and the value of more Hit or Expertise can be measured against more Dodge or more Parry or more Armor or more Stamina or more Mastery or more whatever, without worrying about some stat (like Mastery is very close to the cap) approaching exponential gains per point.


I personally think, Dodge/Parry rating are going bye bye next expansion and we're intern getting Hit/Expertise instead.

This is... interesting to think. This would imply that Plate Tanks are going to be using Plate DPS gear much like Druids and Monks will use Leather DPS gear. They've made no such notions of this idea so I'm going to call conjecture here.


I'm already at the point where I have to balance Mastery/Parry/Dodge to maintain CTC without much spill over. That's 3 stats that I need to balance, and that's annoying and a pain in the rear to handle most of the time in terms of how most players attempt to balance our gemming (which, partially is an issue because current plate tanks do not have a "god" stat like Druids at this point in gearing). When you change that from 3 stats, to 5 stats. That's bad design.

Bad design when you have a hard cap you're hitting that offers no value or sudden diminished value with no indication in game to know that only. It isn't bad design to have stats interact with each other and maybe even overtake one another, but not by so much that if you're continuing to build Parry after Dodge just barely overtakes it you're suddenly in the wrong and done and terrible and stop Tanking we hate you go away now. Some will act that way still over that last 0.1% gain of optimization, but the average player will NOT be wrong on the whole by doing what the game shows to be intuitive. The Block Cap is not intuitive, hence its imminent destruction in MoP.


I'm calling it right now, Prot(s) and Blood will get a higher STR -> Parry coefficient than other specs (if they get any, which isn't a buff or nerf really for Ret/Fury/Frost). AGL still does more than STR, so are we going to see STR providing Crit as well?

Based upon previous claims of conjecture... maybe but I don't think for the reasons you're stating.


What is this accomplishing at the end of the day?

Nothing really, outside of more reliability in our TPS. That ship was already sailed whenever Blizzard nearly doubled out our TPS. Worrying about Defense cap was a problem, worrying about CTC cap is a problem, and next expansion this magical fix is to give us reliable damage reduction through Hit/Expertise. That's a huge step backwards, keep in mind CTC cap was a joke to begin with. Really, at the end of the day we'll still most likely be capping two stats (instead of one) then proceeding to mindlessly stack one stat.

Same problem, worse solution.

Assuming this pessimism holds true... perhaps. But you're stretching since you're already assuming no more Tank Plate, which actually complicates your theory more. Suddenly Warriors will have Haste on their gear, Haste that improves Rage generation, Rage that fuels defensive finishers in a similar fashion to Hit/Expertise. So Haste gets tossed into that "bad design" that had Dodge/Parry in the mix.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
I honestly think people need to for a moment consider that if Hit/Expertise suddenly matter, that it does NOT automatically imply we must cap them or die. We need to see how they actually improve our resource gains and what we can actually spend our resources on before we decide whether it is more valuable to get the Hit/Mastery item or the Dodge/Mastery item of otherwise equal stats.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
If they aren't better than dodge/parry/mastery, then they get more or less ignored in favor of superior defensive stats, and any anoying rng induced crashes akin to missed taunts, or choked resource generation, gets laid at the feet of Blizzard's poor design goals.


This isn't true. You already have room for people who feel that want 8% hit and 26 Expertise to perform completely fine, if that resulted in them getting a survivability bonus out of it, those sorts of choices would simply be less common. If hit's giving 78% of the benefit that Dodge does, they've automatically made AVoidance/Hit, Hit/Mastery items more attractive as opposed to people debating whether an upgrade is an upgrade simply because it has Hit which they find "useless".

The middle ground is actually pretty huge in that regard, especially when we're talking about something with resource interactions.

As a Kitty Hit and Expertise aren't quite as good as Haste by a very small amount. I can still feel happy about getting 5.x% hit and 23 Expertise purely because I want to justify not missing Swipes on adds. If they were slightly weaker than they are now, I'd still feel happy about making that kind of choice.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/11/2011 4:09 PM PST
81 Gnome Death Knight
10100
11/11/2011 03:57 PMPosted by Fasc
I honestly think people need to for a moment consider that if Hit/Expertise suddenly matter, that it does NOT automatically imply we must cap them or die. We need to see how they actually improve our resource gains and what we can actually spend our resources on before we decide whether it is more valuable to get the Hit/Mastery item or the Dodge/Mastery item of otherwise equal stats.


Correct. We first need to see how important the resources we gain, or don't gain when we miss, are. Of course my crystal ball is in the shop at the moment so all I can do is guess.

However if they're less important than dodge/parry/mastery then we're in close to the same situation we're in now.

In the case hit/exp is less important than reaching the CTC cap the only difference might be after the CTC cap (for shield tanks) we focus on hit/exp instead of stam or possibly more avoidance instead of block and I don't think that's what they're aiming for.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
yes, i agree you level fast, but if it turns out that tanks are always better served by first maxing out hit and exp for instance, then low level tanks would be stealing DPS gear as often as possible and avoiding the "bad" tanking gear that lack those stats.


Low level tanks use DPS gear to tank already. It kills things dead faster.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
11/11/2011 04:07 PMPosted by Kahzregi
I honestly think people need to for a moment consider that if Hit/Expertise suddenly matter, that it does NOT automatically imply we must cap them or die. We need to see how they actually improve our resource gains and what we can actually spend our resources on before we decide whether it is more valuable to get the Hit/Mastery item or the Dodge/Mastery item of otherwise equal stats.


Correct. We first need to see how important the resources we gain, or don't gain when we miss, are. Of course my crystal ball is in the shop at the moment so all I can do is guess.

However if they're less important than dodge/parry/mastery then we're in close to the same situation we're in now.

In the case hit/exp is less important than reaching the CTC cap the only difference might be after the CTC cap (for shield tanks) we focus on hit/exp instead of stam or possibly more avoidance instead of block and I don't think that's what they're aiming for.


I think CTC capping will go bye bye, or at least hope. That's my crystal ball projection based upon what has been said thus far.

I just don't see them changing DKs, Druids, and adapting Monks to a level where 2/5 Tanks hit this steady state with Mastery via percentile blocks and full combat table coverage and the other 3/5 Tanks do so in a manner of rolling absorption shields and self healing and other "flavorful" methods.

Hell they could change Block BACK to flat amounts and suddenly we all take sometimes small hits because of large absorbs and larger hits because of small/no absorbs. I'm sure every Paladin and Warrior will cry foul at the suggestion though...
85 Draenei Warrior
9495
11/11/2011 04:10 PMPosted by Slashlove
yes, i agree you level fast, but if it turns out that tanks are always better served by first maxing out hit and exp for instance, then low level tanks would be stealing DPS gear as often as possible and avoiding the "bad" tanking gear that lack those stats.


Low level tanks use DPS gear to tank already. It kills things dead faster.

as i am at this moment leveling a healer from 30-42 so far in teh last 2 days, bad tanks use dps gear.

i can easily tell the difference already between tanks that are geared properly and those that arent.
dps gear isnt the answer. simply by proxy of being able to pull large groups, tank dps is higher with survival gear on.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
i can easily tell the difference already between tanks that are geared properly and those that arent.


Of course you can. One actually needs healing, the other doesn't. That's not the point.
Stuff in those low level dungeons is designed to be tanked in dps gear. Hell, for the first batch of levels short of the Satchel rewards, gear only has two stats - Strength and Stamina. Occasionally it comes with like 3 Hit Rating. Stuff purposely hits soft enough that you can heal tanks in DPS gear because they expect Plate classes including tanks at that level to simply take the dps plate that kills things faster.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/11/2011 4:31 PM PST
85 Draenei Warrior
9495
yes, but the satchel rewards are common enough that im wearing a full set minus the heirloom pieces and you can end up with a nice champion set (str sta dodge)

by level 40 (where i am at) tanks can easily have a significant amount of avoidance.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
yes, but the satchel rewards are common enough that im wearing a full set minus the heirloom pieces and you can end up with a nice champion set (str sta dodge)

by level 40 (where i am at) tanks can easily have a significant amount of avoidance.


So what? Levelling people will have Satchel gear with Str/Sta/X in 5 or 6 slots, probably won't even know anything about secondary stats, it'll be better than the 2Str/3Sta quest reward they got 5 levels ago, and be tanking instances that a Shadow Priest can tank.

The hell are they going to avoid?
Edited by Slashlove on 11/11/2011 5:31 PM PST
85 Draenei Warrior
9495
neck is 8/5/5. 5 = 50%
so neck, rings, gloves, bracer, belt = 30 = 6% dodge alone.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
neck is 8/5/5. 5 = 50%
so neck, rings, gloves, bracer, belt = 30 = 6% dodge alone.


And why would low level tanks care that hit and expertise are 10% better than Dodge rating at level 85 because of spells that they don't even have all of?

Expertise doesn't even Exist on Mail/Plate till level 40 ish. You can't even get hit/expertise combinations on most of this Satchel gear. What the hell are you going on about?
Edited by Slashlove on 11/11/2011 6:21 PM PST
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