Mastery raid buff

85 Draenei Warrior
0
11/11/2011 06:11 PMPosted by Slashlove
Expertise doesn't even Exist on Mail/Plate till level 40 ish. You can't even get hit/expertise combinations on most of this Satchel gear. What the hell are you going on about?

this exactly.

if they make hit/exp as important as it seems (ie we want it) then it has to outwieght tanking stats. the lack of that gear is the issue.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
if they make hit/exp as important as it seems (ie we want it) then it has to outwieght tanking stats. the lack of that gear is the issue.


No it's not. Lower levels aren't made hard enough or care enough for that to matter, and it will affect lower levels differently because lower level characters do not even have the majority of their skills, so they're not even going to get as much out of hit/exp as we will at lvl 85.

You started off talking about lower level tanking gear being avoided and now you're running around trying to make something out of nothing here.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/11/2011 8:16 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12205

if they make hit/exp as important as it seems (ie we want it) then it has to outwieght tanking stats.


No no no no no no no.

<Insert expletive> Why is it you cannot <expletive> grasp the idea that for a stat to be desirable it does NOT have to be a <expletive> god stat?! Seriously what is so damn hard about the idea of stats being close enough that 2-3 are valuable in different ways, but still valuable?

It is so frustratingly narrow minded when you and others go off on these bastardized streams of consciousness that attempt to parade as logic that can only ever consider one super extreme or another, but nothing ever in between somewhere.

Stats like Dodge/Parry will outright remove damage from the incoming damage profile.
Stats like Mastery/Armor will reduce damage from the incoming damage profile.
Stats like Hit/Expertise will improve resource gains which fuel the two above possibly.

If theoretically a Tank outright ignores all Hit/Expertise, then based on what they've stated thus far, that Tank will have fluctuations in resource gain and thus have shoddier uptime on some Mastery effects and other class specific defensive mechanisms like self healing, absorption shields, damage reduction self buffs or damage reduction debuffs for the enemy. A Tank in that state may very well favor Dodge/Parry because Mastery just doesn't work as well without the Hit/Expertise to work with it, but that Tank will be streaky and spotty with their mitigation and a nightmare to heal.

Does this automatically mean Hit/Expertise are god stats we must stack to survive? No, no more than Dodge or Parry are. Why? Because you need ALL of your stats working together to survive, that would be ideal. If you stack Hit/Expertise to the cap, then you'll have excellent and steady resource gain to keep all your special resource dumps going... but you'll get relentlessly pounded and take overall more damage.

Since Hit/Expertise are going to be our direct resource boosting stats, it will entirely depend upon how we use our resources as to how much Hit or Expertise or both we need or want to get comfy with our system. DKs may want a % or two more than Druids, or Paladins could have a more continuous benefit than Warriors who are far more discretely dynamic. Hit and Expertise will act to smooth out some RNG in our rotations, but unlike DPS where every hit counts to making sure DPS is peaked out, if we can consistently keep our three self buffs up or whatever it is we're doing, we only need so much, with plenty of room for preference.

Please... for the love of my sanity and not wanting to pray for the super power of strangulation via internet... stop going on asinine extremes and understand that stats can exist in a place that isn't GOD STAT or utterly useless.
85 Draenei Warrior
0
Fasc, you completely missed what i said.

IF THEY CHANGE hit and exp to the point where we need to chase them FIRST, then lower level tanks are screwed because of the lack of these stats on tank gear. Pre-wrath gear on average is 2-3 stat splits, not 4. IE str/sta/dodge or str/sta/parry are good items right now for a leveling tank until cata when they can get str/sta/mastery/dodge

im not saying that hit/exp have to be god stats. im saying that if they have wieght to a point where they are preferred as the first stats you chase (to whatever level) then that doesnt even become possible until cata+ content. I see this is a large negative to teaching people to tank properly AS WELL AS a major screwup in the sense that lower level tanking becomes even more out of whack. Its bad enough already when i get a bear tank who AOE threat sucks because of the lack of thrash, and at lower levels because of the lack of AC.

basically leveling with a warrior tank so far has been a breeze, while the rest suffered some. upon getting into the 30s the paladins picked up to the same level, it wasnt until bears got savage defense at 40 that i really felt they tanked as well as shield tanks do.

basically, imbalance is affecting the game already. im really afraid of what active mitigation will do to leveling tanks.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
IF THEY CHANGE hit and exp to the point where we need to chase them FIRST, then lower level tanks are screwed because of the lack of these stats on tank gear.


Lower level tanks may not even train Holy Shield till level 50. They currently don't get SD till 40, and there's no real reason why that would change. They won't get the same benefits from the stats that people will at 90, which is where the stats will be balanced anyway. Missing a Death Strike or a Holy Strike or Face Palm does not matter in low level content. They expect a Fury Warrior in DPS gear to wind up tanking it without knowing his Thunderclap button. An actual tank is unkillable.

Are you really too dense to get this?
Edited by Slashlove on 11/11/2011 11:32 PM PST
100 Blood Elf Priest
14930
11/11/2011 11:12 PMPosted by Xurk
IF THEY CHANGE hit and exp to the point where we need to chase them FIRST, then lower level tanks are screwed because of the lack of these stats on tank gear. Pre-wrath gear on average is 2-3 stat splits, not 4. IE str/sta/dodge or str/sta/parry are good items right now for a leveling tank until cata when they can get str/sta/mastery/dodge


Post Cata, we are looking at...

1. The Great Item Squish, wherein every single piece of gear in the game is adjusted.
2. The introduction of Active Mitigation, which changes the entire functionality of every tank (with the possible exception of Blood, tbd).
3. Another talent system revamp, all previous occurrences of which have made characters vastly OP relative to pre-existing content.

And you're worried that leveling tanks, which are currently so overpowered they can solo dungeons at level, might have non-optimal gear available to them.

/eyebrow
90 Human Paladin
13020
11/11/2011 04:04 PMPosted by Slashlove
If they aren't better than dodge/parry/mastery, then they get more or less ignored in favor of superior defensive stats, and any anoying rng induced crashes akin to missed taunts, or choked resource generation, gets laid at the feet of Blizzard's poor design goals.


This isn't true. You already have room for people who feel that want 8% hit and 26 Expertise to perform completely fine, if that resulted in them getting a survivability bonus out of it, those sorts of choices would simply be less common. If hit's giving 78% of the benefit that Dodge does, they've automatically made AVoidance/Hit, Hit/Mastery items more attractive as opposed to people debating whether an upgrade is an upgrade simply because it has Hit which they find "useless".

The middle ground is actually pretty huge in that regard, especially when we're talking about something with resource interactions.

As a Kitty Hit and Expertise aren't quite as good as Haste by a very small amount. I can still feel happy about getting 5.x% hit and 23 Expertise purely because I want to justify not missing Swipes on adds. If they were slightly weaker than they are now, I'd still feel happy about making that kind of choice.


But would they find an avoidance/hit more attractive than an avoidance/mastery or dodge/parry piece? Ultimately, in the absence of required caps, people will default to stacking their two most effective stats, and actively trying to get rid of anything else. Back when expertise had survival benefits on multiple fights, most tanks still tried to get rid of most of it. Back when hit meant the difference between a succesful transition or a wipe, tanks still tried to get rid of most of it. The only times when hit/exp were favored over proper defensive stats is when tight DPS check require additional DPS output and requires squeezing blood from a stone. HodirHM at release, trying to push 1 meteor on H rag, things of that nature, and farm content, but no one cares about farm content.

Let's look at the example you put out. You didn't gem for any hit or expertise. You didn't reforge out of any haste, and in fact, in several places, you reforged hit into haste, despite being short of the cap. So you're saying that you're ok with having some of your second best secondary stats when you couldn't reforge them into haste because your gear already had haste. Would you be making that same set of reforges if hit and expertise caps were behind not only haste but crit and mastery as well?
85 Draenei Warrior
0
11/11/2011 11:19 PMPosted by Slashlove
IF THEY CHANGE hit and exp to the point where we need to chase them FIRST, then lower level tanks are screwed because of the lack of these stats on tank gear.


Lower level tanks may not even train Holy Shield till level 50. They currently don't get SD till 40, and there's no real reason why that would change. They won't get the same benefits from the stats that people will at 90, which is where the stats will be balanced anyway. Missing a Death Strike or a Holy Strike or Face Palm does not matter in low level content. They expect a Fury Warrior in DPS gear to wind up tanking it without knowing his Thunderclap button. An actual tank is unkillable.

Are you really too dense to get this?

Slash, lay off the insults, its pointless trolling.

go with the model Fasc listed. Stats take on a new priority basis based upon what the devs have already said: IE you want hit and exp to gain resources.

all level tanks need resources. not having hit exp therefore means that you will be a substandard tank.

that doesnt mean you cannot do the content, far from it. it does mean that the way we play now, and the comfort level from now, changes. it changes to the point where these stats pick up some significant meaning or else the entire redesign is a failure.

lower level rage starvation is a big issue currently as an example. in a system where no rage is gained defensively and only gained from landing special attacks that require you to attack, you can easily end up with really crappy play long before you need any real defense.

and go heal low levels again. tanks can die easily. especially when you couple lack of understanding with bad gear.
its not hard to oom a healer who is using 6-9% of his mana per heal, and only regening 1% every 3-4 seconds.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
But would they find an avoidance/hit more attractive than an avoidance/mastery or dodge/parry piece?


This comes down eventually to implementation. But the context I was meaning is where people sit around being "unsure" of whether a 391 Dodge/Exp is better than a 378 Parry/Mast just because it has Exp. Where Exp has a non-zero survivability value, that "illusion of not worth it" or "doubt" or what have you doesn't exist.

You'd still find people getting some Hit/Exp even if Hit/Exp were below Avoidance simply due to nature. The people who get 8% Hit/26 Exp right now do so because that's just how they want to play. They're not looking at theoretical weights - their choice is entirely playstyle driven. If it's a buff that needs to be maintained that has a 20 sec cd, and a 22 sec duration, Hit will be more valuable. If it's a buff that needs to be maintained that has a 8/16/24 sec duration, but can be activated for Holy Power, it's not as big a deal because even if you have 2, you just pop it and refresh it sooner next time, you're not concerned that you can potentially miss and be short one Holy Power come refresh time.

Let's look at the example you put out. You didn't gem for any hit or expertise. You didn't reforge out of any haste, and in fact, in several places, you reforged hit into haste, despite being short of the cap. So you're saying that you're ok with having some of your second best secondary stats when you couldn't reforge them into haste because your gear already had haste. Would you be making that same set of reforges if hit and expertise caps were behind not only haste but crit and mastery as well?


Hit/Exp are technically behind Crit/Mastery at this gear level I'm at. But even if they were behind by a relatively significant amount, yes. The reason for that doesn't change - making sure Swipes connect and not having a 26% chance to miss Mangles when having to dps from the front while it's already tight because of Mangle not refreshing Rip and having to sink Energy into Swipes which screws with single target anyway. None of those change because of losing a tiny amount of single target that isn't even enough to cover natural random variation.

lower level rage starvation is a big issue currently as an example. in a system where no rage is gained defensively and only gained from landing special attacks that require you to attack, you can easily end up with really crappy play long before you need any real defense.


And this is why when doing some of the things like some abilities that generate Rage instead of spending it, the spectrum will get a bit more spread out so that lower levels have some abilities that generate Rage, some that spend it, one ability to generate aoe threat, a taunt, possibly one aspect of active mitigation etc.

They won't have the interplay of skills that affect each other, let active mitigation work in its full capacity and so on. A Guardian Bear will probably learn Leader of the Pack at lvl 15 and not learn Savage Defense till level 40. He'll possibly learn Primal Fury way earlier than the level 19 that he can get it on, and Natural Reaction might be at level 46 or 36 or 26. The stat weights at level 90 will assume you have EVERYTHING, which means you have Shield Block, you have X effect that you learn at 81 that amplifies Shield Block, you have Shield Slam extending Shield Block's duration which you learn at 85, you have Mastery which you learn at level 80 and so on. A level 36 doesn't give a crap about stacking Hit at level 36 when the only thing he has is this puny Heal Strike that heals him for 100 every 10 seconds.

And even if you miss Block Attack, you don't have the same consequences at lower level that you do at even, say, lvl 81.
BTW none of this is trolling. I can only come to conclusions about based on your reaction, and if you sit around running all over the place trying to make something that's not an issue an issue, you simply simplify the process.

and go heal low levels again. tanks can die easily. especially when you couple lack of understanding with bad gear.
its not hard to oom a healer who is using 6-9% of his mana per heal, and only regening 1% every 3-4 seconds.


I solo everything in Scarlet Monastery on my tank. I healed an Ele Shaman through Scholomance. We 4-manned Deadmines without a healer. Healers in no heirlooms spamming the one heal healed me through on my Balance Druid. Are we playing the same game?
Edited by Slashlove on 11/12/2011 12:23 AM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
I still think you're taking this too far into an extreme Xurk.

I highly doubt we'll be utterly incapable of defending ourselves if we lack Hit/Expertise even in a world somehow that requires us to stack them beyond all other stats.

Slash has a point, low level Tanks are going to be lacking abilities, skills, passives, and Masteries that will likely interact with said resource usage. We have absolutely no clue what we'll be using our resources on more regularly as of now, much less when in the leveling process we get those things. When you step into Ragefire Chasm, you lack many of the staples of Warrior Tanking, yet you can still do it. Later when you're in SM Cathedral, you STILL lack several staples of the tool kit, yet you can Tank that stuff too.

We have no clue how Rage will work in MoP. Will we even still get it when we autoattack? What abilities will provide it and what abilities will use it? If an ability that provides Rage fails to land, are we just screwed or do we get maybe half of what it advertises?

With so many things set to change, I'm not really sure what the plight of the low level Tank really is going to be anymore than what it is going to be for the max level Tank.

Xurk, what you seem to not grasp is that changes made to greatly impact us at maximum level need not greatly affect what happens at the bottom end, particularly when tuning is so broad as to allow for all sorts of mistakes, inadequacies, and so on and still be successful. Hit and Expertise do NOT need to become god stats for a redesign to be successful, they simply have to become more valuable (ie for survival) than they are currently. Even if all it meant was that Warriors value Hit like current Ferals value Hit, that is a SUCCESS. It isn't a life changing success, but it is a success. Furthermore, successfully making Hit useful and desirable by high end Tanks doesn't mean low end Tanks that lake Hit are screwed, anymore than low end Tanks lacking Defense (when it was that time) were screwed. Hell you currently go through the vast majority of your leveling experience WITHOUT MASTERY which is the whole god stat problem for shield users right now!

I have done leveling recently FYI and I'm pretty sure they could just strip you half naked and you'd still be able to do the entire place without a hitch. I still remember quite clearly doing places like SM Cath at level appropriate back in Vanilla, and I remember how slowly you had to go and how careful you had to be and how awesome it was to have a Mage in the group for CC. No matter what they do, I highly highly HIGHLY doubt that the pacing of LFD at those levels will slow down back to that crawl of a pace where one misstep could literally wipe your party repeatedly.
90 Human Paladin
13020
11/12/2011 12:09 AMPosted by Slashlove
But would they find an avoidance/hit more attractive than an avoidance/mastery or dodge/parry piece?


This comes down eventually to implementation. But the context I was meaning is where people sit around being "unsure" of whether a 391 Dodge/Exp is better than a 378 Parry/Mast just because it has Exp. Where Exp has a non-zero survivability value, that "illusion of not worth it" or "doubt" or what have you doesn't exist.

You'd still find people getting some Hit/Exp even if Hit/Exp were below Avoidance simply due to nature. The people who get 8% Hit/26 Exp right now do so because that's just how they want to play. They're not looking at theoretical weights - their choice is entirely playstyle driven. If it's a buff that needs to be maintained that has a 20 sec cd, and a 22 sec duration, Hit will be more valuable. If it's a buff that needs to be maintained that has a 8/16/24 sec duration, but can be activated for Holy Power, it's not as big a deal because even if you have 2, you just pop it and refresh it sooner next time, you're not concerned that you can potentially miss and be short one Holy Power come refresh time.


There's always going to be some people who go agaist the grain, but that's not who we are concerned with right here. Look at bears, where ever non spirit secondary stat has a not insignificant survivability component. Everyone still reforges to the one that has the best return on investment. Ironically, it's the one stat that they don't get on gear. If they did bring dodge leather back, then they'd be reforging everything to the next most effective secondary stat.

Let's look at the example you put out. You didn't gem for any hit or expertise. You didn't reforge out of any haste, and in fact, in several places, you reforged hit into haste, despite being short of the cap. So you're saying that you're ok with having some of your second best secondary stats when you couldn't reforge them into haste because your gear already had haste. Would you be making that same set of reforges if hit and expertise caps were behind not only haste but crit and mastery as well?


Hit/Exp are technically behind Crit/Mastery at this gear level I'm at. But even if they were behind by a relatively significant amount, yes. The reason for that doesn't change - making sure Swipes connect and not having a 26% chance to miss Mangles when having to dps from the front while it's already tight because of Mangle not refreshing Rip and having to sink Energy into Swipes which screws with single target anyway. None of those change because of losing a tiny amount of single target that isn't even enough to cover natural random variation.


I'm fairly certain that with the T12 bonuses, crit/mastery fall behind hit/exp for kittys. But my druid's a bear primary; even if I'm wrong there, what you're doing is optimizing based on the encounters that matter. You aren't towing around non essential secondary stats because you think it makes you a free spirit, you're doing it because it gives you significantly better returns on molten elementals. Your stat weights shifted, and your gearing strat changed accordingly. But if the MoP changes aren't enough to shift hit/exp into the 1/2 seat for secondary stats, then they aren't going to be used by the general tanking community.

Going back to the post you initially replied to.

11/11/2011 01:15 PMPosted by Dämmerung
They've got a reall small target to hit here, and they can't err one way or another. It's going to need a lot more precision than the post cata release "numbers pass".


What Blizz is going to have to aim for is a situation where hit/exp to caps are better than other stats, but not so far ahead that they become so important that tanks will be pursuing say, crit/exp peices to the detriment of plate DPS. I don't think that I trust them to hit that small of a target initially, or to fix it in a reasonable time frame if they miss it.
Edited by Dämmerung on 11/12/2011 12:59 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9910
@Feanorion

1-2:
I think I agree with many of your points. Hopefully content updates/releases will be better spaced out next expac. Currently, I found myself bored a lot when not raiding. By the time I finished running Molten Front dailies for my third toon, I swear I am not running them ever again.

Oh, I think the new Darkmoon Faire will help a lot too.


T12 paladin reminds me of this guy: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Arch_Zealot_of_the_Redemption

/snicker

11/11/2011 06:48 PMPosted by Feanorion
Go to Karazhan. Ignore the ease with which you stroll through it; focus instead on the music. The atmosphere. The feel of the place. Then compare that to Blackwing Descent's atmosphere and feel.


I will do that sometimes. Just ran Scholomance after I learned that it is named for a fictional/folkloric School of Necromancy in the Carpathia. While I love the atmosphere, I'd loath to run the place at level.

Going to leave this thread for a bit, it is getting a little too heated.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6815
I don't understand why you guys read and answer xurk's posts.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
There's always going to be some people who go agaist the grain, but that's not who we are concerned with right here. Look at bears, where ever non spirit secondary stat has a not insignificant survivability component. Everyone still reforges to the one that has the best return on investment. Ironically, it's the one stat that they don't get on gear. If they did bring dodge leather back, then they'd be reforging everything to the next most effective secondary stat.


Well, that is to some extent part of who we're concerned with. The idea that it's "against the grain" as opposed to "playstyle choice" is the problem that's trying to be addressed. They don't have to make Hit/Exp supercede avoidance, and they don't even have to make them equal. All they have to do is get those stats to have a functional impact that is valuable and people can base choices around.

Maybe some people will ignore Hit/Exp entirely and just stack Avoidance. Maybe some people will get Hit/Exp and hardcap it above everything. Maybe some people will get some Hit/Exp (but not cap it) which has an amplifying effect on Mastery and keep them in some sort of relationship that changes ever so slightly from tier to tier. As long as more than one of these is acceptable, they've achieved a goal that they want.

I'm fairly certain that with the T12 bonuses, crit/mastery fall behind hit/exp for kittys.

...

You aren't towing around non essential secondary stats because you think it makes you a free spirit, you're doing it because it gives you significantly better returns on molten elementals.


It changes based on your other stats. The variations are really really minor.

Actually, that's >my< justification for it in my circumstance for going after relatively specific thresholds (in this case, a really tiny chance to miss Swipe against lvl 87 mobs). Our other Kitty values Hit/Exp slightly higher than I do, iirc. Even without the goal of Molten Elementals, I kept ~4% hit and 20 Exp purely because it interplayed with everything else and helped me get the most of what I wanted to do on some fights without going overboard on Haste (because Haste's value is dependant on things like being able to get full uptime on your targets).

When we were pushing for that 1 Meteor, I had near no Hit/Exp and had the highest Haste value I could reforge to, because I was only interested in the ~90 seconds where I had 100% uptime and Haste is the stat that scales in the best way with the things in that phase (like Heroism). So yeah, I choose to go for specific goals at a time and part of that means I gear for certain parts of an encounter at any given time, but that doesn't stop the person next to me from saying "I want X hit and Y Expertise, always" and doing the same job at the same effectiveness that I do, because his is a valid choice too.

So really, they have a wider target than is being implied by most people. They're not shacked to some sort of "Hit must be better or it's useless" limitation.

@Sino: If you're ever going to compare BWD's feel, it has to be on Heroic. The way Nef gets involved in every encounter alone is pretty epic. Especially on Omnotron.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/12/2011 1:37 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9910
11/12/2011 01:32 AMPosted by Slashlove
@Sino: If you're ever going to compare BWD's feel, it has to be on Heroic. The way Nef gets involved in every encounter alone is pretty epic. Especially on Omnotron.


Hehe, thanks, I doubt I will ever get a chance to run it at heroic given the nature of my guild. We did try Magmaw on heroic once, and Nef wiped our raid so fast that there was no more talk about heroic mode thereafter. In any case, BWD already had a special place in my heart for the time I spent wiping there and actually learnt the fights pre-nerf (Magmaw and ODS only, yeah, I suck that much).
90 Night Elf Warrior
7845
Yes, agreed.

When the tier gear requires reforging something is amiss, DEVS?
I think all the classes "need some loving" NOT nerfing.
Never take away from the classes, match the content.

/drink
1 Draenei Paladin
0
11/12/2011 05:26 AMPosted by Tanksinator
When the tier gear requires reforging something is amiss, DEVS?


No.
90 Human Warrior
11110
I'm sorry I like having a god stat, stacking armor was fun, stacking mastery is fun. Competing with plate DPS for gear so I can get hit/expertise to survive is frustrating and convoluted.

Don't assume all players want so called "interesting choices" when they just might be happy with the way things are. I have loved playing a warrior tank for 6 years now....

Because its been stable, why do you want to break that?


Because apparently there are more of us that want to have more than one interesting stat in the range of stats we see often on our gear than not.

Furthermore, you assume that the only way to get Hit or Expertise reliably is going to be stealing from the DPS Plate users, which isn't necessarily true at all given we have many examples of Hit/Dodge, Hit/Parry, Exp/Dodge, and Exp/Parry items in the game. Plus those more ambiguous pieces of Hit or Exp/Mastery items.

Oh and forgive me as a Druid for not feeling sorry for poor lil you having to maybe compete for 1-3 slots of gear for said Hit or Exp/Mastery against DPS. I'll be over here competing for literally every slot against a DPS, some not even of my armor type.

Finally, stability is the wrong word to use. The god stat of Mastery is too strong because Blocking as currently implemented is too strong. By fixing that, because that is causing balancing issues across the board (and thus creating instability), other stats will naturally bubble higher to the surface and just "stack X" won't necessarily be the case at all times.

Nice try, no dice, "don't nerf me bro" is duly noted.


I was not calling for a "Don't nerf me bro".

If anything I would like to see the other classes be brought up to the stability of a warrior and leave warriors as they are, particularity the play style change is what I have an issue with.

Turning all tanks into DKs with mini cool down rotations dependent on resources is not fun for the current DKs who suffer through it, so why the hell would other classes all the sudden be happy with it.

My main point is warriors have been and are currently a stable class with everything working, if mastery is too strong then implement DR's fine I can accept that. But we do not need a class play style change and Hit/Exp to matter so Druids can be in a better place.

Fix the problem and bring up Druids to Warriors.
Edited by Bodasafa on 11/12/2011 8:10 AM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12205

I was not calling for a "Don't nerf me bro".

Yeah you are because you like your status quo and would rather others be brought up to you rather than brought down to them. But when you're the outlier...


If anything I would like to see the other classes be brought up to the stability of a warrior and leave warriors as they are, particularity the play style change is what I have an issue with.

See? "Don't nerf me bro."


Turning all tanks into DKs with mini cool down rotations dependent on resources is not fun for the current DKs who suffer through it, so why the hell would other classes all the sudden be happy with it.

I hear we're all going to operate precisely the same as DKs do RIGHT NOW and we'll all just have to deal with that! Well even if that were actually going to be true... that would put us all on the same level to be sure. However, Blizzard has already stated that Block is too good and Druids and DKs need some loving, so there will be nerfing and buffing and outright changing across the board in MoP. Most of the band aide fixes are just for 4.3, nothing more, so for now buffing us up to Warrior/Paladin ridiculousness is the best they're going to do until the bigger changes.


My main point is warriors have been and are currently a stable class with everything working, if mastery is too strong then implement DR's fine I can accept that. But we do not need a class play style change and Hit/Exp to matter so Druids can be in a better place.

Fix the problem and bring up Druids to Warriors.

Ah see they aren't making Hit/Exp matter just to make it so Druids and DKs can be on par with Warriors. They are making Hit/Exp matter because people want them to matter for ALL CLASSES so that when you get Theck's Emberseal... you don't get pissed at the Hit Rating on it being wasted. They aren't changing playstyles either just to buff/nerf, they are changing us to Active Mitigation because of PLAYER FEEDBACK WANTING IT.

Posts happen all the time and one on one interviews and polls and other discussions where people say the equivalent of... "Man wouldn't it be cool if we did more than just stand there taking a beating? I mean like... we could actually raise our shield to block that hit instead of just waiting for the dice roll to favor us... or we could do something to make us live better?" And people say "Yeah that'd be cool but IDK how we'd do that easily" and the discussions would usually falter because of the enormity of trying to overhaul classes for more control in our personal survival. Blizzard got tired of screwing with threat and simply killed that off as a variable to worry about, especially after doing a lot of the same from above in figuring out that most people didn't think threat to be a big deal or hard to do or anything particularly special.

So threat goes away, yet we're stuck hitting mostly threat buttons... lame. Instead, Active Mitigation for all Tanks. Huzzah, we now have control over our survival, a bit more anyway, and poor play means we're hard to heal and don't Tank very well and great play means we're easier to heal and Tank very well.

That's why the big MoP changes are happening, not just to nerf Warriors into the ground.

I'm sorry you've liked your stability all expansion... but none of us are dodging the scalpel for MoP.
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