Mastery raid buff

90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
I really think at a minimum, standard raid buffs, fort, kings, mark, caster haste, etc. should hide them selves in combat or give us an option to do so. Players need better access to information they need to react to, and less information just filling up their screen.

I'm fairly certain the default UI does this already.
100 Blood Elf Priest
15250
11/09/2011 08:42 PMPosted by Tanker
Why the shift?


I'll try to give some insight into how things got to where they are now.

Originally, things were much different. Block was a static value. This presented much of the same problems as Blood has with Blood Shield these days - it worked really well against trivial damage, and not so well against more severe damage.

As a mitigation stat, Block was largely ignorable against raid bosses - the amount of damage blocked was that insignificant. It had value, though, in that it prevented Crushing Blows which hit for 1.5x damage. The necessity of block capping before Wrath wasn't because Block was some amazing mitigation tool, it was because being Crushed was deadly. You cared that you blocked, but not how much.

Things changed in Wrath. Crushing Blows went away - they could (and as of yet, still can) only occur if an opponent 4 or more levels above you is hitting you. This simplified tank balance, since with the introduction of DKs, there were now two non-block tanks. However, static value block still caused issues. As a stat for raid tanks, it was terrible with a couple exceptions where it was fantastic. (Against Icehowl? Terrible. Against Anub'arak adds? Fantastic.)

Things changed again in Cata. Block became a percentage effect. This solved the scaling issues, and let tanks gear more uniformly for everything. Unfortunately, even after all these tweaks over the years, block is still causing trouble.

The trouble now is that block capping gives you constant 30% (minimum) DR against melee attacks. Druids and DKs look bad by comparison, since they're still capable of taking full hits (Xayton Punches). Against any boss that really stresses tank survivability through melee damage, block capping is a gigantic advantage.

Now, calling block OP because it can be capped is a bit misleading. Mathematically, you get about the same total damage reduction from an equivalent amount of dodge or parry. In a hypothetical scenario that doesn't unfairly favor one form of tank mastery over another, they'll mitigate approximately equivalent amounts of damage.

It's specifically the fact that block tanks can gear to never take a full hit that makes the current situation a problem. It's extra stress for the encounter design team, because they have to work harder to avoid making bosses that can only be tanked by block tanks. It's extra stress for the class balance folks, because they've had to keep tweaking non-block tank mitigation upwards so that they don't compare badly. And it's not that great for players, because of class favoritism.

Basically, block capping is too much of a good thing.
14 Dwarf Hunter
30
The trouble now is that block capping gives you constant 30% (minimum) DR against melee attacks. Druids and DKs look bad by comparison, since they're still capable of taking full hits (Xayton Punches). Against any boss that really stresses tank survivability through melee damage, block capping is a gigantic advantage.


before Dos comes in - druids are not even on the same level of "looking bad" as DKs are. they're only about 11% behind block tanks in terms of damage taken.

if they'd just change blood shield to function like stay of execution, instead of making DS always hit, we'd not even be having this conversation. yes, the shields would have to absorb "either 30% of the attack, or the whole shield, whichever is smaller" but... it sounds, to me, like a mightily better solution. less binary (you have it or you don't) than anything else.

hell, make Savage defense work that way too.
90 Night Elf Druid
15975
11/09/2011 08:07 PMPosted by Kwanzá
I don't understand the need to make every class role practically identical.


This was my first thought too, but when it's at the point it is now, where Warriors can apply both debuffs AoE with no trouble at all, Druids can apply one debuff AoE and the other single target, Paladin can apply both debuffs only single target, and DK can apply both debuffs single, then spread it AoE, it gets to be a bit annoying.

Debuffs aren't interesting gameplay to me anyway. As long as the tanking itself becomes more interesting and dynamic, especially for Bears, I say good riddance to extra, boring buttons to press.
81 Gnome Death Knight
10100
11/09/2011 06:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
A: This is a bit confusing, but bear with us. The attack speed debuff causes some technical problems on some encounters. However, we think Thunder Clap as an ability is more interesting than Demo Shout. The former does some damage, has a shorter range, has benefits aside from applying the debuff, etc. So our plan is to have Thunder Clap, Hammer of the Righteous, one of the DK diseases and Thrash apply the 10% physical damage debuff and remove Demo Shout and the like as well as the attack speed debuff. Creatures would just be balanced around their normal attack speeds.


That's not confusing at all.

It is interesting that HotR will now play a small role in a prot paladin's single target rotation just to keep the debuff up.

11/09/2011 08:07 PMPosted by Kwanzá
I don't understand the need to make every class role practically identical.


Because it's not fun being sat out because your spec doesn't provide a needed debuff.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
11/09/2011 09:33 PMPosted by Freph
before Dos comes in - druids are not even on the same level of "looking bad" as DKs are. they're only about 11% behind block tanks in terms of damage taken.

That's before the 10% AP buff, Stamina Buff, and 2pc T13.

However it is nice that they finally admit it's a problem. Even if we've been telling them this for at least a year.
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
11/09/2011 06:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
A: Yes, in 5.0. Block capping and mastery in general is currently too good for warriors and paladins. We think tank balance is close enough in 4.3 that dramatic overhauls could make matters worse. In 5.0 we will change things.

Not unexpected, somewhat disappointing, but understandable.

I'm hoping that we get enough band-aids put on so that we don't get exploded by mechanics that stress block tanks, but aside from that, I can wait on the overhaul.
90 Night Elf Hunter
12610
There's some mighty fine good reading up in this thread. Mighty Fine indeed
90 Pandaren Rogue
10475
Up until this paragraph, I was fairly well agreeing with you. Until you suggested that block was the same as parry/dodge (as in mitigating damage rather than avoiding it or vice versa).

11/09/2011 09:23 PMPosted by Nerfheals
Now, calling block OP because it can be capped is a bit misleading. Mathematically, you get about the same total damage reduction from an equivalent amount of dodge or parry. In a hypothetical scenario that doesn't unfairly favor one form of tank mastery over another, they'll mitigate approximately equivalent amounts of damage.


Block mitigates. It reduces the amount of damage incoming by a percentage (e.g. the damage will hit the tank, but in a reduced form - and is not avoided if blocked), yes? Parry and dodge avoid damage. That is to say that damage does not hit the target as it never lands on the target tank.

The correct analogs for block would be the Savage Defense shield (druids) and blood shield (dks). I'd rather keep the terminology correct as it can otherwise mislead the ones you're hoping to educate.

The problem that they address is that the druid and dk equivalents of block (savage defense and blood shield) are significantly subpar compared to block. Avoidance is done through other means (dodge/parry). This block equivalency being subpar should be corrected in 5.0 (or so they say).
Edited by Angosia on 11/9/2011 11:24 PM PST
100 Blood Elf Priest
15250
Up until this paragraph, I was fairly well agreeing with you. Until you suggested that block was the same as parry/dodge (as in mitigating damage rather than avoiding it or vice versa).

Now, calling block OP because it can be capped is a bit misleading. Mathematically, you get about the same total damage reduction from an equivalent amount of dodge or parry. In a hypothetical scenario that doesn't unfairly favor one form of tank mastery over another, they'll mitigate approximately equivalent amounts of damage.


Block mitigates. It reduces the amount of damage incoming by a percentage (e.g. the damage will hit the tank, but in a reduced form - and is not avoided if blocked), yes? Parry and dodge avoid damage. That is to say that damage does not hit the target as it never lands on the target tank.

The correct analogs for block would be the Savage Defense shield (druids) and blood shield (dks). I'd rather keep the terminology correct as it can otherwise mislead the ones you're hoping to educate.

The problem that they address is that the druid and dk equivalents of block (savage defense and blood shield) are significantly subpar compared to block. Avoidance is done through other means (dodge/parry). This block equivalency being subpar should be corrected in 5.0 (or so they say).


You're misreading what I wrote, or I'm communicating what I meant badly. I'll take another stab at that bit.

If you reforge mastery to avoidance on your gear, you'll find that you'll still take approximately the same amount of melee damage over the course of a fight. That is to say, the amount of damage prevented by a certain amount of stats is similar, regardless of which of your stats you chose.

The point from that was that mastery wasn't some godly overpowered stat just by itself.

The second half of the quoted paragraph was to compare block masteries to non-block masteries in a similar fashion. Block as a mastery doesn't, in a purely hypothetical sense, out-mitigate the other tank masteries. (This gets messy in practice, where you can present examples of each mastery being situationally better. Not my point.)

This leads up to the next bit, which was dealing specifically with block as a cappable stat.
Edited by Nerfheals on 11/9/2011 11:47 PM PST
100 Human Paladin
19445
Courtesy of GC:

Q: "Currently block is a superior mastery to Blood Shield and Savage Defense. Are there any plans to bring the masteries closer together?"

A: Yes, in 5.0. Block capping and mastery in general is currently too good for warriors and paladins. We think tank balance is close enough in 4.3 that dramatic overhauls could make matters worse. In 5.0 we will change things.


Well, then you need to increase the value of block, triple the amount of armor on shields, or something. If you're going to make it impossible to block cap, there won't be much point in stacking it. Currently it's only worth the damage avoidance of two thirds of an equivalent amount of dodge or parry, the only reason it's stacked is to smooth spike damage. Which, as much as DKs and Druids like to complain about it, is something they have built in to their stance/form on top of their mastery effect. Seeing as how the world's BEST tank is a Death Knight, the whole argument seems like so much blowing smoke.
85 Orc Warrior
9680
11/09/2011 06:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
A: Yes, in 5.0. Block capping and mastery in general is currently too good for warriors and paladins. We think tank balance is close enough in 4.3 that dramatic overhauls could make matters worse. In 5.0 we will change things.

Absurd, we warrior have basicaly 3CDs. Beeing those: Shield Bock, Shield Wall, And Enraged Regen ( Won't Count Last Stand /Rallying Cry)
We allready fall behind on druids and paladins, at late game, since they have more CD's and benefits from other mechanics. ( Druid = Huge Health Pool, and Armor. Paladin = Holy Power)

You should actually buff dk's active mitigation instead of screwing with other tanks. ( They still lack of "armor).

My 2 cent's anyway.
100 Human Warrior
13755
11/10/2011 02:23 AMPosted by Yegoth
Absurd, we warrior have basicaly 3CDs. Beeing those: Shield Bock, Shield Wall, And Enraged Regen ( Won't Count Last Stand /Rallying Cry)


Why aren't you counting Last Stand? That's a cooldown most of us routinely smack when the going gets tough. Rallying Cry I can understand because of the lockout issue as Prot, but Last Stand? Are you high?

We're not in a "bad place" as a class, we're actually very good, unlike we were in Wrath. I don't really see any numbers saying we "fall behind" druids or paladins in late game, and even then if we do the difference is small enough that we can still tank what druids or paladins tank with minimal output of effort in the difference. In plainer English: the delta is much smaller than you think it is.

11/10/2011 02:23 AMPosted by Yegoth
You should actually buff dk's active mitigation instead of screwing with other tanks. ( They still lack of "armor).


Which, if memory serves, they're doing this tier anyway as a bit of a bandaid fix until MoP ships and everybody's on the same "active mitigation" system, thus eliminating DKs as the outlier in that way. At very least they're smoothing out their QoL issues, or at least some of them. Unless the patch notes changed recently, which they very well may have >_>;
90 Human Paladin
0
Ooo GC delivered question/answers.

This is ALMOST like the Wrath days of him just flat out talking to us. I approve ^.^

VERY interested to see the complete Class Calculators later on, should make for better discussion and feedback.


To be fair, a ton of our responses are heavily influenced by consultation with the dev team. You're hearing from them more directly than you might think, a lot of the time.


I actually really like the method that you and Zarhym have been using to post in the past week where you make it clear what is coming from which developer. While it's not quite as nice as having an actual developer talk to us, I find that, for me at least, it does a good job of alleviating the stigma that the CMs sometimes get as the Bucket Brigade of the forums, where they would just say things just to try and calm the mob down.
85 Gnome Mage
3430
Our current plan for Mists is for Intellect to no longer directly increase the size of player mana pools. We intend for our mana-based DPS and Tank classes to be entirely self-reliant regardless of mana pool, so the gameplay impact for those players will be nil. For healers, Spirit will remain as the pure regen stat, and healers after multiple tiers of raid progression will clearly have far more mana at their disposal, but there will be more of an inherent tradeoff between regen and throughput stats. A healer with amazing regen will have amazing regen because of a choice to focus their stats in that direction.


O.o

How will my epic racial for mages make a significant impact then? +5% mana scales better the more mana I gain. and also self reliant does not work for arcane. our mana pools are our lifeblood and the bigger the better. more mana scales better with mastery and our main nuke making static mana pools a difficult option.
Edited by Tynstert on 11/10/2011 6:24 AM PST
85 Tauren Druid
5175
I don't understand the need to make every class role practically identical.


I dont see it as making the classes identical, that's a little too simplistic IMO. It seems like the goal here is to make them function the same on a VERY basic level. That is, they want all the tanks to have the same objectives and accomplish the same goals (debuffs and the like), but it is the manner in which each of the classes get there (the individual mechanics) that will provide the classes personality. We all want to have the boss smash our faces and not the raids', but I want to FEEL like a druid when I accomplish this, just as a warrior should FEEL like a warrior, and so on.
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
Block is too strong. Nobody cares if you can block cap if you block for 1%.

Letting us have high block value AND high block chance is the worst of both worlds and i'm astonished it was allowed to happen. I'm nearly as surprised by the fact they are going to let it go on happening till 5.0 and simply balance everyone else around us doing it.

I try not to say this often, but the approach to block this xpac was a thorough failure.
Edited by Charsi on 11/10/2011 6:12 AM PST
85 Tauren Druid
11485
11/09/2011 06:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
So our plan is to have Thunder Clap, Hammer of the Righteous, one of the DK diseases and Thrash apply the 10% physical damage debuff

It's nice to see that al the tanks can apply the debuff in an AoE fashion, I totally support that. But, in your plan, only DKs would be able to do it while standing in the middle of CC'd mobs. I believe a while back DKs had to use Blood Boil to apply this debuff. Perhaps you should consider bringing that back?

1) It's fair to the other tanks
2) It works in a single GCD
3) It uses a blood rune

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