Mastery raid buff

85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
So our plan is to have Thunder Clap, Hammer of the Righteous, one of the DK diseases and Thrash apply the 10% physical damage debuff

It's nice to see that al the tanks can apply the debuff in an AoE fashion, I totally support that. But, in your plan, only DKs would be able to do it while standing in the middle of CC'd mobs. I believe a while back DKs had to use Blood Boil to apply this debuff. Perhaps you should consider bringing that back?

1) It's fair to the other tanks
2) It works in a single GCD
3) It uses a blood rune


Excellent post. I hope Blue reads this and considers it. I would also add:

4) Can be applied by DPS'ers:
- TC, Arms
- HotR, Ret (in 5.0)
- Thrash, not sure - Infected Wounds?
Edited by Charsi on 11/10/2011 6:28 AM PST
85 Tauren Druid
11485
It's nice to see that al the tanks can apply the debuff in an AoE fashion, I totally support that. But, in your plan, only DKs would be able to do it while standing in the middle of CC'd mobs. I believe a while back DKs had to use Blood Boil to apply this debuff. Perhaps you should consider bringing that back?1) It's fair to the other tanks2) It works in a single GCD3) It uses a blood rune

Alternatively, perhaps you could have the debuff applied by both a single target and aoe attack?

Warrior: Thunder Clap and Devastate
Paladin: Hammer of the Righteous and Crusader Strike
Death Knight: Blood Boil and Heart Strike (or the disease method you're planning)
Druid: Thrash and Mangle (or Lacerate if you prefer)

Whether those abilities apply the debuff could be affected by your current spec to keep it a tank differentiator.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
11/10/2011 06:26 AMPosted by Charsi
- Thrash, not sure - Infected Wounds?

I doubt Cats are going to get Thrash. IW is likely going to go back to being a snare only.

11/10/2011 06:46 AMPosted by Kvaar
Druid: Thrash and Mangle (or Lacerate if you prefer)

If you're not using Thrash on single targets you're doing it wrong.
90 Night Elf Hunter
11750
Courtesy of GC:

Q: “It also looks like the attack speed slow debuff is definitely going away, since feral tanks won't get Infected Wounds. We knew it might be, but it's more certain now.”

A: This is a bit confusing, but bear with us. The attack speed debuff causes some technical problems on some encounters. However, we think Thunder Clap as an ability is more interesting than Demo Shout. The former does some damage, has a shorter range, has benefits aside from applying the debuff, etc. So our plan is to have Thunder Clap, Hammer of the Righteous, one of the DK diseases and Thrash apply the 10% physical damage debuff and remove Demo Shout and the like as well as the attack speed debuff. Creatures would just be balanced around their normal attack speeds.


Since all tanks will have a Physical damage debuff, will you be changing the Hunter Pet ability also, since we will not need this any longer? It's the only reason I have a ravager pet.
85 Troll Warrior
11395
I think your confused. Tanks have a 10% physical damage reduction. The ravager has the 4% increased physical damage taken debuff. That is a buff provided by combat rogues arms warriors and frost dks. That said all the increased damage taken debuffs will be gone in MoP.
Edited by Runtime on 11/10/2011 7:44 AM PST
I wonder what classes are bringing this mastery buff to the table. Rogue?
Edited by Waynebruce on 11/10/2011 7:47 AM PST
85 Tauren Druid
11485
11/10/2011 07:33 AMPosted by Arielle
If you're not using Thrash on single targets you're doing it wrong.

Of course I use it. But I can't do it in the middle of CC'd mobs. In Blizzard's plan, only DKs would be able to apply the debuff while standing in the middle of CC'd mobs, which prompted my replies.
85 Troll Warrior
11395
I cant apply the attack speed debuff next to CC'd mobs currently. I dont really think its a concern since its easy to work around.
Courtesy of GC:

Q: "Currently block is a superior mastery to Blood Shield and Savage Defense. Are there any plans to bring the masteries closer together?"


A: Yes, in 5.0. Block capping and mastery in general is currently too good for warriors and paladins. We think tank balance is close enough in 4.3 that dramatic overhauls could make matters worse. In 5.0 we will change things.


Let's analyze this statement. "Block capping and mastery too good..." Uh huh. "Tank balance close enough..." Okay. "In 5.0 we will change.." Uh huh.

"Warriors and paladins are too good even though tank balance is close enough to warrant no overhaul at this time. In 5.0, there will be a major change on that issue."

I appreciate GC's candor. I now know which toon I can delete to open up a slot for my monk toon.
Edited by Ylspyth on 11/10/2011 8:12 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Warlock
8750
11/09/2011 06:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We’re in a fog of war period right now.


[Enter]
IseeDeadPeople
[Enter]

problem solved ;-)
Edited by Iisis on 11/10/2011 8:14 AM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5015
Yeah I sat thru the whole q&a waiting for an answer to my question, or at least to someone else asking the same thing. I forgot exactly what I asked but had to do with mastery and how Prot Paladins were easily hitting the ctc thru mastery at early 372 i levels. It seemed like such a waste of a stat since after ctc, mastery is 100 percent useless to us. Good to see GC answered at least one question here, because in the live chat, only threat was discussed ONCE. For a class mechanics and design q&a, you would think the tank overhaul system Blizz has been mentioning would be addressed, but from what I saw, there were NO questions answered that had to do with tanks.

I understand you were getting bombarded with questions though.
90 Blood Elf Priest
14235
11/10/2011 08:03 AMPosted by Ylspyth
Warriors and paladins are too good even though tank balance is close enough to warrant no overhaul at this time.


An overhaul is *big*. It takes developer time, lots of testing, and tends to introduce new problems.

Tank balance would have to be way out of whack for an overhaul to be the right thing to do right now.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
11/10/2011 07:52 AMPosted by Kvaar
If you're not using Thrash on single targets you're doing it wrong.

Of course I use it. But I can't do it in the middle of CC'd mobs. In Blizzard's plan, only DKs would be able to apply the debuff while standing in the middle of CC'd mobs, which prompted my replies.


I find this to be the least of our worries with the recent changes to CC. There is no reason for us to be in the middle of them anymore when you can have every single CC target CC'd where you want them before even pulling in most cases. I suppose with patrols you have a point in wanting them to fall back a bit... but you pull from range, CC goes out as they move in (like we had to do anyway for years) and you pick up the remainder as they get to you.

If coordination exists in the group at a decent level, applying our debuff and not breaking CC is basic Raider 101 skillful play. If coordination doesn't really exist... well CC probably isn't going out anyway and if you have any hope of downing the content you're probably doing nerfed raids or 5mans where CC isn't all that big a deal anyway.

Also... why are we worried about applying our debuff so immediately? The CC'd mobs certainly don't need it, they're CC'd. The ones I'm actually Tanking away from them probably aren't going to just nuke me down. Outside of raids (and even this is debatable given how trash has gone over the years), I just don't see any trash packs being overly threatening to begin with, much less with half of them stuck in pig/sheep/frog/trap/roots/sleep form.

What I don't want is smart non-target AoE. I don't want to be able to mindlessly smash Thrash and Swipe around CC'd targets and just... never worry about hitting them because the game will do that thinking for me. That extends beyond just Tanks as well with Blizzard, Arcane Explosion, Rain of Fire, Seeds of Destruction, etc etc etc.
90 Tauren Shaman
12060
11/09/2011 06:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
A: This is a bit confusing, but bear with us. The attack speed debuff causes some technical problems on some encounters. However, we think Thunder Clap as an ability is more interesting than Demo Shout. The former does some damage, has a shorter range, has benefits aside from applying the debuff, etc. So our plan is to have Thunder Clap, Hammer of the Righteous, one of the DK diseases and Thrash apply the 10% physical damage debuff and remove Demo Shout and the like as well as the attack speed debuff. Creatures would just be balanced around their normal attack speeds.


This has interesting implications for shaman shocks since earth shock currently also applies a 20% attack speed debuff. Would this just also switch to a 10% damage debuff or are there completely new and different directions planned for shocks?
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
UE
19765
Courtesy of GC:

Q: "Currently block is a superior mastery to Blood Shield and Savage Defense. Are there any plans to bring the masteries closer together?"


A: Yes, in 5.0. Block capping and mastery in general is currently too good for warriors and paladins. We think tank balance is close enough in 4.3 that dramatic overhauls could make matters worse. In 5.0 we will change things.


Let's analyze this statement. "Block capping and mastery too good..." Uh huh. "Tank balance close enough..." Okay. "In 5.0 we will change.." Uh huh.

"Warriors and paladins are too good even though tank balance is close enough to warrant no overhaul at this time. In 5.0, there will be a major change on that issue."

I appreciate GC's candor. I now know which toon I can delete to open up a slot for my monk toon.
That's because their definition of close enough is can all tanks do the content. I haven't tanked with a warrior, but our other tank is a paladin. I can say that he doesn't get spiked down like I do on some fights. The only time I have seen his precious shield fail him is on Beth when I refreshed Horn of Winter out of his range and it dropped him below the cap. Sometimes after getting squished, I'm tempted to just not refresh horn so he can get squished on the next pull.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
11/10/2011 09:42 AMPosted by Kaeturaog
A: This is a bit confusing, but bear with us. The attack speed debuff causes some technical problems on some encounters. However, we think Thunder Clap as an ability is more interesting than Demo Shout. The former does some damage, has a shorter range, has benefits aside from applying the debuff, etc. So our plan is to have Thunder Clap, Hammer of the Righteous, one of the DK diseases and Thrash apply the 10% physical damage debuff and remove Demo Shout and the like as well as the attack speed debuff. Creatures would just be balanced around their normal attack speeds.


This has interesting implications for shaman shocks since earth shock currently also applies a 20% attack speed debuff. Would this just also switch to a 10% damage debuff or are there completely new and different directions planned for shocks?


New or removed seems to be the trend with the consolidation of buffs/debuffs and the removal of oddities on their end or ours. I don't think any of us would have thought the attack speed debuff would cause them angst but hey... I guess so.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Like for example, mind quickening is always available for a shadow priest, do I really need to see that buff? Additionally Vampiric Embrace was shown, and this is another buff I really only care to know if I do not have.


Yes, you do. Mind Quickening is technically a "temporary" buff tied to Shadowform, and VE is technically something that can be considered toggleable. If you do want to go beyond what the base UI offers and make your own custom calls on what you want to see and what you don't, that is what mods are for - they put control of your UI in your own hands.

Of course I use it. But I can't do it in the middle of CC'd mobs. In Blizzard's plan, only DKs would be able to apply the debuff while standing in the middle of CC'd mobs, which prompted my replies.


Don't tank in the middle of CC'd mobs.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/10/2011 9:48 AM PST
89 Night Elf Death Knight
3140
Courtesy of GC:

Q: "Currently block is a superior mastery to Blood Shield and Savage Defense. Are there any plans to bring the masteries closer together?"

A: Yes, in 5.0. Block capping and mastery in general is currently too good for warriors and paladins. We think tank balance is close enough in 4.3 that dramatic overhauls could make matters worse. In 5.0 we will change things.


I just wanted to ask a question about something I noticed in regards to Block capping.

Having both Warriors and Paladins being able to block/parry/dodge attacks, DK's able to dodge/parry, and Druids able to only dodge, the problem of scaling avoidance and CTC seems to be answered, for the most part. However, at a basic level, things are apparently not equal.

My concern is about the 3/2/1 methods of mitigation; it seems like stacking for Druids is not quite going as well as intended, and DK's are on the self-heal model. I also recall seeing that tanks are going to become self-reliant in 5.0, at least as part of the plan.

How does all this scale up, or have the Dev's taken into account how things are going to be reworked come 5.0? The question that I have is that on a basic level, unless the block/parry/dodge, dodge/parry, and dodge stacking should arrive at similar levels overall per patch, we may see similar tanks being benched issues come 5.0.

Simply put, CTC coverage has made Warriors and Paladins really nice tanks to have, this expansion. How do the Dev's view things going forward from here, that you can relate, Daxx?
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
My concern is about the 3/2/1 methods of mitigation; it seems like stacking for Druids is not quite going as well as intended


???
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
UE
19765
Courtesy of GC:


A: Yes, in 5.0. Block capping and mastery in general is currently too good for warriors and paladins. We think tank balance is close enough in 4.3 that dramatic overhauls could make matters worse. In 5.0 we will change things.


I just wanted to ask a question about something I noticed in regards to Block capping.

Having both Warriors and Paladins being able to block/parry/dodge attacks, DK's able to dodge/parry, and Druids able to only dodge, the problem of scaling avoidance and CTC seems to be answered, for the most part. However, at a basic level, things are apparently not equal.

My concern is about the 3/2/1 methods of mitigation; it seems like stacking for Druids is not quite going as well as intended, and DK's are on the self-heal model. I also recall seeing that tanks are going to become self-reliant in 5.0, at least as part of the plan.

How does all this scale up, or have the Dev's taken into account how things are going to be reworked come 5.0? The question that I have is that on a basic level, unless the block/parry/dodge, dodge/parry, and dodge stacking should arrive at similar levels overall per patch, we may see similar tanks being benched issues come 5.0.

Simply put, CTC coverage has made Warriors and Paladins really nice tanks to have, this expansion. How do the Dev's view things going forward from here, that you can relate, Daxx?
Tanks being benched has happened over the past two expansions and it will continue to happen until tanks are homogenized. Contrary to popular belief, tank homogenization is a good thing.
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