Mastery raid buff

100 Blood Elf Priest
14930
How does all this scale up, or have the Dev's taken into account how things are going to be reworked come 5.0? The question that I have is that on a basic level, unless the block/parry/dodge, dodge/parry, and dodge stacking should arrive at similar levels overall per patch, we may see similar tanks being benched issues come 5.0.


I've read your post a few times, and I'm still not entirely sure what information you're trying to get. Could you take another stab at it?
90 Night Elf Death Knight
3160
11/10/2011 10:16 AMPosted by Nerfheals
How does all this scale up, or have the Dev's taken into account how things are going to be reworked come 5.0? The question that I have is that on a basic level, unless the block/parry/dodge, dodge/parry, and dodge stacking should arrive at similar levels overall per patch, we may see similar tanks being benched issues come 5.0.


I've read your post a few times, and I'm still not entirely sure what information you're trying to get. Could you take another stab at it?


War's and Pallies:
+ Block
+ Parry
+ Dodge
= ?

DK's:
+ Dodge
+ Parry
= ?

Druids:
+ Dodge
= ?

Mastery of course differing with each.

I'm not saying make the tanks so close as to be totally indistinguishable, just please see that something can at least be worked out in the long run rather than the short to see that all tanks can remain relevant to the content they face.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
War's and Pallies:
+ Block
+ Parry
+ Dodge
= ?

DK's:
+ Dodge
+ Parry
= ?

Druids:
+ Dodge
= ?

Mastery of course differing with each.

I'm not saying make the tanks so close as to be totally indistinguishable, just please see that something can at least be worked out in the long run rather than the short to see that all tanks can remain relevant to the content they face.


What makes you feel that that is a problem. You said somethign about stacking not working for Druids, which I assume means that you feel that Druids can't get enough Dodge to be competitive because they only get Dodge, but that's ..... no.
100 Blood Elf Priest
14930
11/10/2011 10:37 AMPosted by Relesa
I'm not saying make the tanks so close as to be totally indistinguishable, just please see that something can at least be worked out in the long run rather than the short to see that all tanks can remain relevant to the content they face.


Still not entirely sure what the issue is. Different avoidance types being available to different tanks isn't a problem now. The consistency provided by block masteries is unbalancing, but actual avoidance totals are pretty similar.
90 Night Elf Death Knight
3160
I'm guessing, after trying to fully get my head around the point I'm trying to make is I don't like the sound of active mitigation, and I don't want to see other tanks get stuck into a situation that led to the Bloody Mitigation article in 5.x content for all tanks, perhaps even earlier than the end of the expansion.

Blood DK's seem to have received the short end of the stick this expansion with Blizzard's vision for them. I'm pretty sure that Blizzard meant well, it's just that we, as players, have vastly less information as to why Blood DK's are the way that they are. This means we're not as informed as the Dev's as to the why things are that way.

There's likely no issue with the model chosen. I'm trying to point out that when the foundation is sound, and something above it is weak, sometimes the foundation is the point to start at for a full review. Blood right now does not seem like something I'd want as a model for the other tanking classes.

I just can't get the right words out to state this clearly: I do not see the current active mitigation model working well with new content. That, of course, is subject to change.

I'm done here. Sorry if I wasted anyone's time.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
I'm guessing, after trying to fully get my head around the point I'm trying to make is I don't like the sound of active mitigation, and I don't want to see other tanks get stuck into a situation that led to the Bloody Mitigation article in 5.x content for all tanks, perhaps even earlier than the end of the expansion.

Blood DK's seem to have received the short end of the stick this expansion with Blizzard's vision for them. I'm pretty sure that Blizzard meant well, it's just that we, as players, have vastly less information as to why Blood DK's are the way that they are. This means we're not as informed as the Dev's as to the why things are that way.

There's likely no issue with the model chosen. I'm trying to point out that when the foundation is sound, and something above it is weak, sometimes the foundation is the point to start at for a full review. Blood right now does not seem like something I'd want as a model for the other tanking classes.


Blood's mitigation as a concept for other tanking classes is fine.
Blood's mechanics pre-4.3 are not, but that's not what's being advertised as "active mitigation".

In 5.0, Protection Paladins will have three finishers with no cooldown for example. One is Word of Glory, which is a heal. One is Holy Shield, which will be an absorb effect. And the last is ShoR, which amplifies Block. That's a solid design, which has nothing to do with Diseases for DK's, Rune play, lower passive mitigation attempting to be compensated with higher active etc.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/10/2011 11:00 AM PST
90 Night Elf Death Knight
3160
I'm guessing, after trying to fully get my head around the point I'm trying to make is I don't like the sound of active mitigation, and I don't want to see other tanks get stuck into a situation that led to the Bloody Mitigation article in 5.x content for all tanks, perhaps even earlier than the end of the expansion.

Blood DK's seem to have received the short end of the stick this expansion with Blizzard's vision for them. I'm pretty sure that Blizzard meant well, it's just that we, as players, have vastly less information as to why Blood DK's are the way that they are. This means we're not as informed as the Dev's as to the why things are that way.

There's likely no issue with the model chosen. I'm trying to point out that when the foundation is sound, and something above it is weak, sometimes the foundation is the point to start at for a full review. Blood right now does not seem like something I'd want as a model for the other tanking classes.


Blood's mitigation as a concept for other tanking classes is fine.
Blood's mechanics pre-4.3 are not, but that's not what's being advertised as "active mitigation".

In 5.0, Protection Paladins will have three finishers with no cooldown for example. One is Word of Glory, which is a heal. One is Holy Shield, which will be an absorb effect. And the last is ShoR, which amplifies Block. That's a solid design, which has nothing to do with Diseases for DK's, Rune play, lower passive mitigation attempting to be compensated with higher active etc.


Then that's good. I just hope that those Prot Pally examples will be the new model for active mitigation. Blood DK's this expansion are not very fun to play, when Blood basically requires an adrenaline rush to play effectively.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
I just hope that those Prot Pally examples will be the new model for active mitigation. Blood DK's this expansion are not very fun to play, when Blood basically requires an adrenaline rush to play effectively.


Again, Blood DK's are the model. The concept is simply that in addition to passive mitigation, you have more buttons to press which actively affect your survivability as a part of your button presses through short time spans. Like with Death Knights.

That is not the same as them saying "We are going to spread mechanic issues to all tanks". They're spreading the concept of active mitigation. It stops and ends there.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/10/2011 11:08 AM PST
85 Goblin Rogue
6675

A: We meant that Replenishment would be gone. We think healers benefit enough from the other buffs that they will still feel more powerful in groups, which is one of the main intents behind synergistic raid buffs. Currently, instead of feeling awesome when they get Replenishment, healers feel sad when they don’t get it. We want it to feel like a bonus and since it does not, it may be time for it to go.

This is how it is for every buff besides bloodlust. The need to bring certain classes is outdated. We keep hearing Blizzard support "bring the player, not the class," but they only make small steps in this direction. Burning Crusade worked because you knew what spec your class was best with, and you knew your role. You formed a raid with a certain number of rogues, 1 enhance shaman, 2 or 3 shadow priests, etc. If you want to move away from class restriction, then just get rid of the buff system almost completely. I play with 5 real-life friends, and our raid makeup is just the combination of whatever classes we like to play. Why is it necessary for us to play certain classes in order for us to receive fairness?

It's good to make classes different and playing them feel different, but you shouldn't be penalized if you happen to have 3 warlocks in your raid, or any rogues or any dps warriors. Buffs aren't fun, none of them. Mark of the wild adds nothing to the game. Please just remove these elements and adjust for the stats accordingly. It's cool to have options like aura, poisons, totems, aspects, armor specs, etc., but it's not cool to be penalized for not properly planning your raid makeup.
85 Troll Warrior
11395
Well each class needs to bring something. If there were no buffs, you'd bring as many of the best dps as you could. There design goal is more of bring the player with the class he enjoys playing and with out some sort of benefit of having a good raid comp, it's bring the best class for each role.
Community Manager
Let's analyze this statement. "Block capping and mastery too good..." Uh huh. "Tank balance close enough..." Okay. "In 5.0 we will change.." Uh huh.

"Warriors and paladins are too good even though tank balance is close enough to warrant no overhaul at this time. In 5.0, there will be a major change on that issue."

I appreciate GC's candor. I now know which toon I can delete to open up a slot for my monk toon.


C'mon now. The pointed sarcasm isn't necessary, and I think you may be missing what was actually said. This will not stand, y'know, this aggression will not stand, man.

Still, it's probably best that I convey a clarification:

What we said was that with the various changes we have made in 4.3 that tank balance is pretty close, and to be fair, it was also close in 4.2. Death knights in 4.2 may have arguably been harder to play well relative to other tanks, but they still tanked all of the content successfully, and some of our 4.3 changes are intended to ease the difficulty of tanking in that spec. The problems with block capping don’t at all mean “warriors and paladins are the best tanks.” That might be the case if we didn’t adjust things like DK armor, but we did. It might have meant that we would have to buff DK armor (or something) through all of the remaining 4.x raid tiers to keep up, but there are no more 4.x raid tiers.

There are a more problems when one stat is too good aside from players with that stat simply becoming too powerful. When any one secondary stat is too good, then players understandably view any gear without that stat as “garbage.” DPS specs can stack hit / expertise to the cap and then focus on say haste, crit or mastery. Right now, plate tanks don’t have a lot of attractive stats after they have capped mastery, except for dodge and parry which also affect pushing hits off the table the same as mastery does. Dodge and parry aren’t even meaningfully different from each other, except for the (somewhat sophisticated) games you can play with trying to avoid diminishing returns.

In 5.0, tanks will care about hit and expertise, because those will become survival stats: if your hits don’t connect, you won’t have the resources needed for some of your defensive abilities (the less critical ones like Shield Block, but not Shield Wall). That alone will make tank gearing a little more interesting. If we decrease the amount of block, or the value of a point of mastery, or add diminishing returns to block, then we can still make mastery a useful stat without it being the god stat. Heck, we’re probably in a place with tank balance today where we could reconsider having bonus Stamina or armor, which we stopped doing a couple of years ago because they were the previous god stats.

But it should be evident from that wall of text, that we’re not talking about simple changes here. They are fairly extensive changes with a lot of risk. There is a risk players won’t get the memo and not understand that block capping either isn’t as good as it once was or isn’t viable at all. There is a risk that paladins and warriors go from being relatively balanced to too weak. There is a risk that in our noble attempts to fix them from being too weak (such as buffing their armor, health or cooldowns) that the might become too powerful. We’re signing up to take that risk in 5.0 when we have more time to iterate and collect feedback and massive class changes are more expected.

We'd also like to make these really big changes in a context where more players are likely to become aware of them - that's much easier to accomplish at the beginning of an expansion because most everyone is looking around to find out what's changed. Why would we do that? It might surprise you (since you guys are, by definition, the posting community) to know how few players actually participate in these forums or can even be reached by blue posts. Many players simply stumble upon changes, or worse, get yelled at by other players for not being up-to-date on the latest class changes, and get frustrated -- which isn't great for anyone's experience.
Edited by Daxxarri on 11/10/2011 12:25 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5015
Let's analyze this statement. "Block capping and mastery too good..." Uh huh. "Tank balance close enough..." Okay. "In 5.0 we will change.." Uh huh.

"Warriors and paladins are too good even though tank balance is close enough to warrant no overhaul at this time. In 5.0, there will be a major change on that issue."

I appreciate GC's candor. I now know which toon I can delete to open up a slot for my monk toon.


C'mon now. The pointed sarcasm isn't necessary, and I think you may be missing what was actually said. This will not stand, y'know, this aggression will not stand, man.

Still, it's probably best that I convey a clarification:

What we said was that with the various changes we have made in 4.3 that tank balance is pretty close, and to be fair, it was also close in 4.2. Death knights in 4.2 may have arguably been harder to play well relative to other tanks, but they still tanked all of the content successfully, and some of our 4.3 changes are intended to ease the difficulty of tanking in that spec. The problems with block capping don’t at all mean “warriors and paladins are the best tanks.” That might be the case if we didn’t adjust things like DK armor, but we did. It might have meant that we would have to buff DK armor (or something) through all of the remaining 4.x raid tiers to keep up, but there are no more 4.x raid tiers.

There are a more problems when one stat is too good aside from players with that stat simply becoming too powerful. When any one secondary stat is too good, then players understandably view any gear without that stat as “garbage.” DPS specs can stack hit / expertise to the cap and then focus on say haste, crit or mastery. Right now, plate tanks don’t have a lot of attractive stats after they have capped mastery, except for dodge and parry which also affect pushing hits off the table the same as mastery does. Dodge and parry aren’t even meaningfully different from each other, except for the (somewhat sophisticated) games you can play with trying to avoid diminishing returns.

In 5.0, tanks will care about hit and expertise, because those will become survival stats: if your hits don’t connect, you won’t have the resources needed for some of your defensive abilities (the less critical ones like Shield Block, but not Shield Wall). That alone will make tank gearing a little more interesting. If we decrease the amount of block, or the value of a point of mastery, or add diminishing returns to block, then we can still make mastery a useful stat without it being the god stat. Heck, we’re probably in a place with tank balance today where we could reconsider having bonus Stamina or armor, which we stopped doing a couple of years ago because they were the previous god stats.

But it should be evident from that wall of text, that we’re not talking about simple changes here. They are fairly extensive changes with a lot of risk. There is a risk players won’t get the memo and not understand that block capping either isn’t as good as it once was or isn’t viable at all. There is a risk that paladins and warriors go from being relatively balanced to too weak. There is a risk that in our noble attempts to fix them from being too weak (such as buffing their armor, health or cooldowns) that the might become too powerful. We’re signing up to take that risk in 5.0 when we have more time to iterate and collect feedback and massive class changes are more expected.

We'd also like to make these really big changes in a context where more players are likely to become aware of them - that's much easier to accomplish at the beginning of an expansion because most everyone is looking around to find out what's changed. Why would we do that? It might surprise you (since you guys are, by definition, the posting community) to know how few players actually participate in these forums or can even be reached by blue posts. Many players simply stumble upon changes, or worse, get yelled at by other players for not being up-to-date on the latest class changes, and get frustrated which isn't great for anyone's experience.


That's a solid idea to have hit and exp affect your mitigation thru mechanics such as missing an attack like shield of the righteous will affect the mitigation you would have otherwise gained. However instead of lowering the per block point value of mastery and adding diminishing returns to block(which probably wouldn't be a good idea being a shield user and is naturally our main mitigation method) Would having mastery give you some hit(like spirit used to do in wrath) or other stat be an option? This way we could still stack mastery to some degree and still get a benefit out of it, giving us more leeway with our gemming and reforging.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
SY
8970
Right now, plate tanks don’t have a lot of attractive stats after they have capped mastery, except for dodge and parry which also affect pushing hits off the table the same as mastery does.


A minor clarification, but mastery gear is useful even after block-cap, since it allows one to shift more of one's gemming and trinket equips towards stamina.
Edited by Weebeyy on 11/10/2011 12:35 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5015
Was mostly just an example. Maybe have Mastery give dodge? To counter the str giving parry?
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
11/10/2011 12:20 PMPosted by Hooves
However that pretty much solidifies leather "tanking" gear as mastery+hit/expertise.

Which isn't any different than normal. Expertise is already the best secondary stat we can actually get behind Mastery. If crits continue to generate extra resources, then that will be fine too.

What we may see is the sudden increase in Haste becoming useful after Hit/Exp capping.
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