Mastery raid buff

100 Draenei Warrior
16800
11/10/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Daxxarri
if your hits don’t connect, you won’t have the resources needed for some of your defensive abilities (the less critical ones like Shield Block, but not Shield Wall)
So... that person who guessed we'll only generate rage from damage dealt is looking to be correct? :O

EDIT: Also, I hate to be the guy who does things like this, Daxx, but you commented in a thread earlier in the week, about LFR loot rules, and a lot of people have had follow-up questions about it, but you haven't posted beyond your original post. I don't suppose you could take another look at that thread when you've got time?
-----
Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
Edited by Waniou on 11/10/2011 12:44 PM PST
85 Human Death Knight
12405
Daxx, I've tried asking this before but one of my chief concerns about tanks and wanting to hit things is the fact that tanks have to deal with absurd parry rates from bosses. Any plans to change this?

I wouldn't mind getting more hit and expertise, but I need SO MUCH expertise that it feels really bad.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6815
Daxx, I've tried asking this before but one of my chief concerns about tanks and wanting to hit things is the fact that tanks have to deal with absurd parry rates from bosses. Any plans to change this?

I wouldn't mind getting more hit and expertise, but I need SO MUCH expertise that it feels really bad.


Quoted for emphasis.
85 Human Paladin
10995
Thanks for going into such details with tanking, it's something to chew over while we wait for 4.3/5.0. I'm excited to have reasons to get to hit cap/expertise soft cap again. I loved being capped in ICC and doing awesome damage.

It has seriously made tanking less fun to be the hit-less-wonder watching a 3HP SotR with a full Vengeance bar and a Sacred Duty proc go to waste three swings in a row.
87 Night Elf Death Knight
5360
11/10/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Daxxarri
It might surprise you (since you guys are, by definition, the posting community) to know how few players actually participate in these forums or can even be reached by blue posts. Many players simply stumble upon changes, or worse, get yelled at by other players for not being up-to-date on the latest class changes, and get frustrated -- which isn't great for anyone's experience.
Let's be frank here — that's your fault.

You guys have one of the most orphic, least-obvious games available to the popular market. The vast majority of stuff — like DPET numbers, priority cycles, diminishing returns, millions of patch changes, stat weights, etc etc etc etc — are completely opaque to someone who doesn't know how to hunt down sites on Google that explain it.

You've got a situation where the interested and dedicated players flock to your websites, fansites, and Blue Tracker and you can just sit back and disseminate information to a handful of people, and then confidently rely on others to spread it to everyone interested.

Then you rely on Trade Chat to trickle it down to the vast masses you're noting as untouched by your information here, getting hamfisted and oversimplified rules like "Only stack Mastery" when they ask questions.

Why is it like this? Because nowhere in the game do you offer people even a starting clue that all these resources are out there, and that these resources are MANDATORY to their performance.

It's pretty unfair, to be honest. I really don't see "It's hard to figure out and requires Google, and once you do all your research, you're much more powerful!" as compelling gameplay. It often seems to make the more motivated among us feel smug and superior, but I don't think the potential for egotism due to others' ignorance is, again, compelling gameplay.

There's a potentially valid argument that even if you make these resources obvious, the vast majority of players just don't care enough to actually use them. Perhaps that would prove true. But until you at least offer that gateway to them, it's senseless to complain about their being in the dark.

100 Draenei Paladin
16645
11/10/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Daxxarri
In 5.0, tanks will care about hit and expertise, because those will become survival stats: if your hits don’t connect, you won’t have the resources needed for some of your defensive abilities (the less critical ones like Shield Block, but not Shield Wall). That alone will make tank gearing a little more interesting.

I .. I think I love you. ♥

Having hit and expertise being "bad" stats to gear for has been so frustrating for me. I can't wait to get my hands on the MoP beta and for it to go live!
85 Tauren Druid
11485
11/10/2011 09:46 AMPosted by Slashlove
Don't tank in the middle of CC'd mobs.

My point is not that I want to, but that DKs shouldn't be the only ones that could. I suggested they apply their slow debuff with Blood Boil to make it balanced with the other tanks.
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
11/10/2011 12:41 PMPosted by Arielle
However that pretty much solidifies leather "tanking" gear as mastery+hit/expertise.

Which isn't any different than normal. Expertise is already the best secondary stat we can actually get behind Mastery. If crits continue to generate extra resources, then that will be fine too.

What we may see is the sudden increase in Haste becoming useful after Hit/Exp capping.


This.

If our attacks are helping to generate our resources and we continue to be a Rage driven model, Haste could very well become exceptionally important in the way that Haste is sort of a gimmick for Tanking DKs: more resources, more healing, more shields, more profit!

Plus there is the possibility that Critical Strikes still grant bonus Rage for a Bear, so that stat has increased depth as well.

Savage Defense could continue to work as it does or it might not, but even if SD gets scrapped entirely and our Mastery is something bland and boring and lacks synergy with all other stats... all stats currently found on DPS Leather will directly benefit our survivability in a system that demands resource driven mitigation.

Stormclaw (I think?) should be pleased ^.^
85 Tauren Druid
11485
11/10/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Daxxarri
In 5.0, tanks will care about hit and expertise, because those will become survival stats

Awesome, that's what I wanted to hear for a long time. I hate unreliable initial threat. Missing a mob pickup even though I pressed my buttons makes me feel like I'm failing at my job, even though as the fight goes on threat becomes a non-issue.

So now... would you be kind enough to comment on what will happen to Vengeance and the damage to threat multiplier in 5.0?
Edited by Kvaar on 11/10/2011 2:58 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
Let's be frank here — that's your fault.

--snip--

Why is it like this? Because nowhere in the game do you offer people even a starting clue that all these resources are out there, and that these resources are MANDATORY to their performance.

It's pretty unfair, to be honest. I really don't see "It's hard to figure out and requires Google, and once you do all your research, you're much more powerful!" as compelling gameplay. It often seems to make the more motivated among us feel smug and superior, but I don't think the potential for egotism due to others' ignorance is, again, compelling gameplay.

There's a potentially valid argument that even if you make these resources obvious, the vast majority of players just don't care enough to actually use them. Perhaps that would prove true. But until you at least offer that gateway to them, it's senseless to complain about their being in the dark.


I'm not sure where to start here but I completely disagree with putting all the onus on Blizzard here because there are behaviors present that are 100% out of their control regardless of how far they go to disseminate information.

This game, is not super highly complicated. There are video games out there on much smaller scales population wise with far more complicated systems and hypothetically volumes more worth of theorycrafting as well. Taking the absolute simplest of gaming types and I guarantee you we could all sit down in a huddle and model, program, discuss, argue, and pound out each and every detail in order to optimize gameplay.

The reason extensive theorycrafting ever crops up for any given community is because... the community sinks its teeth into it. Blizzard has never discouraged us from digging into the game either and that's a plus as well. But how deep and thorough the community is with the information and theory is... well... all on us, and Blizzard CANNOT be endorsing any of us at all. Stickies get put up on forums with guides and information based on COMMUNITY feedback first, then they glance over them to see if they're helpful and useful and slap them up. That's the closest thing Blizzard can be to saying "Yeah, this poster here knows what he/she is talking about, listen to this person" without actually saying it, and even then it is a stretch and no employee will EVER go on record of saying "Yeah, that Fasc guy knows what's up, we take his advice very very seriously over other people."

You do NOT need to know the tremendous amount of theorycrafting background that goes into BiS lists and rotations in order to come decently close yourself. The game IS complicated, but it isn't THAT complicated. If you did the bare minimum of efforts as a DPS, figured you didn't want to miss any shots so you made sure your Hit (and Expertise if it applied) were high enough to cap, and then stacked your best stat (Int, Agi, Str) or even matched all the socket bonuses, and equipped the highest gear you could get because it just had more of everything on it... you're 90% of the way there on gearing. No optimization, no back and forth about the pros and cons of shifting around Haste for Crit, none of that. Just gear that's for your class, at the highest level, jammed to the teeth with as much of your favored stat.

Beyond that, information IS out there. The first thought SHOULD be to come here beyond asking friends you know online, who should also direct you here. The community has grown a lot so people skip the easy step (coming here) and often go to whatever fansite exists for that need. Blizzard endorses that better than most gaming companies, but they can't force people to come to this site and then hold their hand to direct them to the right stickies while simultaneously avoiding negative or bad posters.

I've never looked so I have no clue if this exists in game yet or not; however, Blizzard could very well have a built in FAQ for Player Tips and Tricks where they direct and encourage you to peruse the various class/role forums and make sure to read the stickies first, even example posts on how to ask questions to get good responses. Beyond that... what the hell can they do aside from having built in Fasc's BearCAD Spreadsheet that automatically tells them "Hey dude, these boots are better than those boots by this much."

The negativity that stems from people not knowing and parading the info around like it is some sort of badge of honor or as an excuse to act like an !@# is NOT Blizzard's prerogative either. People will be people and Blizzard can't help that morons everywhere on this planet will use literally any and every excuse to try to act superior over the slightest difference. The community sets the stage of "X Stat or DIE!!" and people feed off that, and we can choose to either act like information warmongers to influence poorly... or be as helpful as we can to those that come along asking and influence well.
100 Draenei Warrior
16800
11/10/2011 03:13 PMPosted by Fasc
"Hey dude, these boots are better than those boots by this much."
Well they kinda did... *coughFasc's Preserved Bootscough*
-----
Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
85 Night Elf Druid
12205
11/10/2011 03:16 PMPosted by Waniou
"Hey dude, these boots are better than those boots by this much."
Well they kinda did... *coughFasc's Preserved Bootscough*
-----
Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
<a href="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859" class="bml-link-public">http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859</a>


Never mind that...

>.>

<.<

I just... umm... left those there... for other people to have... cuz... I... am... so... nice...?
11/10/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Daxxarri
C'mon now. The pointed sarcasm isn't necessary, and I think you may be missing what was actually said. This will not stand, y'know, this aggression will not stand, man.


lol. Okay, okay. I apologize.

Your post clarified a lot of things. Thank you.
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
11/10/2011 03:22 PMPosted by Fasc
Well they kinda did... *coughFasc's Preserved Bootscough*
-----
Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
<a href="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859" class="bml-link-public">http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859</a>


Never mind that...

>.>

<.<

I just... umm... left those there... for other people to have... cuz... I... am... so... nice...?

Wtb Arielle's Hood of Intolerance pst
85 Tauren Paladin
4285
Let's analyze this statement. "Block capping and mastery too good..." Uh huh. "Tank balance close enough..." Okay. "In 5.0 we will change.." Uh huh.

"Warriors and paladins are too good even though tank balance is close enough to warrant no overhaul at this time. In 5.0, there will be a major change on that issue."

I appreciate GC's candor. I now know which toon I can delete to open up a slot for my monk toon.


C'mon now. The pointed sarcasm isn't necessary, and I think you may be missing what was actually said. This will not stand, y'know, this aggression will not stand, man.

Still, it's probably best that I convey a clarification:

What we said was that with the various changes we have made in 4.3 that tank balance is pretty close, and to be fair, it was also close in 4.2. Death knights in 4.2 may have arguably been harder to play well relative to other tanks, but they still tanked all of the content successfully, and some of our 4.3 changes are intended to ease the difficulty of tanking in that spec. The problems with block capping don’t at all mean “warriors and paladins are the best tanks.” That might be the case if we didn’t adjust things like DK armor, but we did. It might have meant that we would have to buff DK armor (or something) through all of the remaining 4.x raid tiers to keep up, but there are no more 4.x raid tiers.

There are a more problems when one stat is too good aside from players with that stat simply becoming too powerful. When any one secondary stat is too good, then players understandably view any gear without that stat as “garbage.” DPS specs can stack hit / expertise to the cap and then focus on say haste, crit or mastery. Right now, plate tanks don’t have a lot of attractive stats after they have capped mastery, except for dodge and parry which also affect pushing hits off the table the same as mastery does. Dodge and parry aren’t even meaningfully different from each other, except for the (somewhat sophisticated) games you can play with trying to avoid diminishing returns.

In 5.0, tanks will care about hit and expertise, because those will become survival stats: if your hits don’t connect, you won’t have the resources needed for some of your defensive abilities (the less critical ones like Shield Block, but not Shield Wall). That alone will make tank gearing a little more interesting. If we decrease the amount of block, or the value of a point of mastery, or add diminishing returns to block, then we can still make mastery a useful stat without it being the god stat. Heck, we’re probably in a place with tank balance today where we could reconsider having bonus Stamina or armor, which we stopped doing a couple of years ago because they were the previous god stats.

But it should be evident from that wall of text, that we’re not talking about simple changes here. They are fairly extensive changes with a lot of risk. There is a risk players won’t get the memo and not understand that block capping either isn’t as good as it once was or isn’t viable at all. There is a risk that paladins and warriors go from being relatively balanced to too weak. There is a risk that in our noble attempts to fix them from being too weak (such as buffing their armor, health or cooldowns) that the might become too powerful. We’re signing up to take that risk in 5.0 when we have more time to iterate and collect feedback and massive class changes are more expected.

We'd also like to make these really big changes in a context where more players are likely to become aware of them - that's much easier to accomplish at the beginning of an expansion because most everyone is looking around to find out what's changed. Why would we do that? It might surprise you (since you guys are, by definition, the posting community) to know how few players actually participate in these forums or can even be reached by blue posts. Many players simply stumble upon changes, or worse, get yelled at by other players for not being up-to-date on the latest class changes, and get frustrated -- which isn't great for anyone's experience.


Yeah, if these changes go live in 5.0 I'm either switching to a dps class or not buying the expansion all together.

You guys don't have the greatest track record with making tanking changes, and if you screw this up it's over for me.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
My point is not that I want to, but that DKs shouldn't be the only ones that could. I suggested they apply their slow debuff with Blood Boil to make it balanced with the other tanks.


They can't tank mobs within other CC'd mobs either, unless you think "apply diseases and stand around afraid to hit any buttons" works to tank mobs.

Wtb Arielle's Hood of Intolerance pst


I wonder how anyone would pull off an emote in an Item Name.
Edited by Slashlove on 11/10/2011 4:25 PM PST
85 Tauren Druid
11485
11/10/2011 04:24 PMPosted by Slashlove
They can't tank mobs within other CC'd mobs either, unless you think "apply diseases and stand around afraid to hit any buttons" works to tank mobs.

What do you mean? All Blood DKs need to do is substitute Blood Strike for Heart Strike when standing next to CC'd mobs.Everything else (Death Strike, Rune Strike, diseases, interrupts, silence) are all single target.

Anyway, every tank can tank in the middle of CC'd mobs. My point was that in Blizzard's plan, only DKs could debuff a mob in the middle of CC'd mobs.

Sure, it isn't a game breaking advantage for the DKs, but if they're gonna change how you debuff a mob for every tank class there is, then they might as well do it in a balanced way.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
What do you mean? All Blood DKs need to do is substitute Blood Strike for Heart Strike when standing next to CC'd mobs.Everything else (Death Strike, Rune Strike, diseases, interrupts, silence) are all single target.

Anyway, every tank can tank in the middle of CC'd mobs. My point was that in Blizzard's plan, only DKs could debuff a mob in the middle of CC'd mobs.

Sure, it isn't a game breaking advantage for the DKs, but if they're gonna change how you debuff a mob for every tank class there is, then they might as well do it in a balanced way
.

I assumed you were talking about AoE tanking since that's theo nly way it can actually be an issue. If it's a single target mob, you would have already had it debuffed by the time a second mob came over to get CC'd next to it, and you would be able to pull them apart long before you needed to refresh, so I'm not sure where you think this is going to be an issue.
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
11/10/2011 02:10 PMPosted by Notbonfleur
You guys have one of the most orphic, least-obvious games available to the popular market. The vast majority of stuff — like DPET numbers, priority cycles, diminishing returns, millions of patch changes, stat weights, etc etc etc etc — are completely opaque to someone who doesn't know how to hunt down sites on Google that explain it.


It's no more or less obvious than most other games out there. It's just that it's got a really large playerbase. If you think that other popular games make every implication of their mechanics system known to the player then you are wrong.

Any popular game is going to have a forum community dedicated to deciphering the exact meaning of tooltip wordings and the optimal set-ups for different scenarios. Starcraft has communities like that. League of Legends has communities like that. Hell, Pokemon has communities like that.
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