Please teach me Blizzard!

90 Troll Hunter
11245
11/10/2011 02:44 PMPosted by Tivoli
had every buff that he could get, including Dark Intent from the warlock and Unholy Frenzy from DK, an additional Tricks for the damage increase from another rogue


I just looked, and none of them got Frenzy, unless it's not listed under "Buffs gained" and every rogue across the board got tricks at least 9 times. Sub, Combat, or Sin. Noxe got 3 since there was 3 other Rogues in there, but the second guy only got 1 Tricks (albeit 9 times) ;\.
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20 Draenei Priest
0
Lets say you measure your self on your scale you have in your bathroom then you go to the doctors office an hour later and they weigh you and have a different results


See now, every now and then a post just is perfect! +1 bro I love the analogy!

The problem is that the numbers raid leaders do have: (skada/recount/WoL) are showing hunters dropping into the crapper. So the only scale the people that matter to us players have shows us doing worse and worse.

It doesn't matter. People will swear up and down that Blizzard is lying because of their perceived and often wildly inaccurate claims of being extremely gimped.


I love how the idea that because Blizz says something its golden... there is nothing farther from the truth.

Let me give you facts from my experience and not from sims or raid-bots or lying:

Cata 5 mans I was blowing !@#$ up at the top of every chart as SV
25 normals T11 I could still be top 4 as SV and if I went MM I would go up to 1 or 2
Heroic 25 T11 SV nose dived for me so I just quit playing it and hung in the top 5 as MM pretty much every fight there.
25 man heroic, I began to notice a slide, I could no longer stay in the top 5 for all the fights and slipped as far as 8 on some.
T12:
25 normal modes, I did ok, except for the Alys fight (we all know why) I hung in the top 10 on everything else and was doing top 5 on Baleroc.
25 heroic modes, well son... its been pretty ugly, I have slipped to to 12 or 13th on every fight but Baleroc (i can stay in the top 8 on that)

We do have 4 legendary staffs so that can account for some of what I am personally seeing but it does not account for the slip from 1 to 13 over the expansion.

I have raided on the PTR and its honestly worse, I am either last or next to last on pretty much all the fights. It's actually a running joke for my guild how much of a "baddie" I am compared to 8 months ago.

I did not just forget how to play did I? I mean, I am no WoW god but... its not like hunter rotations are so difficult that I forgot how to do them in the last year....
Edited by Healinghands on 11/10/2011 11:57 PM PST
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57 Worgen Hunter
555
the key to being a hunter is DPS or the rotation of attacks in other words choose your attacks use the hunters mark always when fighting a boss in a dungeon then fire of a serpent sting for continous damgae then run to close range and drop an immolate trap and use disengage then unload 2 arcane shots and then a steady and lastl a concussion shot then repeat this sequence or make your own i just press random buttons if you want good DPS build be a survival hunter or choose it as your secondary its my econdary talent while my primary is BM
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90 Night Elf Hunter
8850
The Development Team should really start playing those under performing classes on live servers and learn if it is an under performing class/spec before saying that the players, who are "the masters," are doing it wrong. It would help them out more.

TLDR: If you don't play the class, then the players might actually be right.


Hate to break it to you but a good portion of developers and CMs actually do play this game and those specs you are whining about. They aren't just sitting in an ivory tower and arbitrarily buffing and nerfing things in the game without any context to go with it.


If this is true then explain how hunters fare so poorly in all aspects of pvp.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
13450
11/11/2011 06:15 AMPosted by Halcott
the key to being a hunter is DPS or the rotation of attacks in other words choose your attacks use the hunters mark always when fighting a boss in a dungeon then fire of a serpent sting for continous damgae then run to close range and drop an immolate trap and use disengage then unload 2 arcane shots and then a steady and lastl a concussion shot then repeat this sequence or make your own i just press random buttons if you want good DPS build be a survival hunter or choose it as your secondary its my econdary talent while my primary is BM


Wut?
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85 Draenei Hunter
11685
11/11/2011 06:47 AMPosted by Eveninglite
We’re hoping the changes to Survival and Unholy (and Destruction, and Beast Mastery) in 4.3 will help push those specs into a similar situation. We really hope people give these specs a chance.


People will most definitely "give them a chance". They have on the PTR and they will on live, but the problem is, when those specs aren't pulling near the same dps on dummys, and those specs don't have fights that suit their niche playstyle, then it will be the same thing all over again.

People don't leave specs because someone says it isn't as good, people leave them when they realize the numbers just aren't there. This is not a chicken and egg situation.

Good players know the best possible dps before even going into the first fight, it makes perfect sense that the easiest advantage will come from the spec with the most room for error and the most dps, and that is what players gravitate towards.

Numbers aren't misrepresented because there aren't enough players. Those players left those specs because the numbers were proving to be low. This is not the first time the player base, with infinitely more manpower and testing capability than blizzard, has been told they are doing it wrong. :(


This is my question, too. How can it be that the perceptions are so strong amongst the playerbase, and yet the devs try to rationalize it.

People don't just gravitate away from a spec because the top players haven't figured out how to play it. While there is a stigma attached to playing SV it's not because of some underground movement to defame the spec. It's because the numbers just weren't there and even the most stalwart SV proponents eventually had to admit that MM performs with more effectiveness and have chosen to switch.

These things aren't community-wide errors, or ignorance, or some sort of player engendered bigotry. The specs aren't as good and they need help. Some days it's like the devs can't see the forest for the trees because they're too busy justifying the leaves to themselves.
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80 Blood Elf Warrior
2830
11/09/2011 01:39 PMPosted by Zarhym
Unholy and Survival are definitely underpowered in 4.2, and are getting buffed to compensate in 4.3. However, the point that Xelnath was trying to make, I think, is that they’re not as far behind as people think they are. With just a couple minor buffs, these specs are able to be competitive, in at least some encounters. Subtlety is a good example of this already: Subtlety is a very difficult rotation to play, and suffers quite a lot of drawbacks. But in some encounters, those drawbacks can be mitigated, such that it becomes the optimal spec. For example, the top Subtlety rogues are beating the top Combat and Assassination rogues on Baleroc, since that fight plays to Subtlety’s strengths. Will Subtlety win on every fight? No, probably not. But they’re not nearly as far behind as most players think, and sometimes can even be better. We’re hoping the changes to Survival and Unholy (and Destruction, and Beast Mastery) in 4.3 will help push those specs into a similar situation. We really hope people give these specs a chance.


Can I quote this at the Pure v. Hybrid folks when they say there is no advantage?
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90 Orc Hunter
10810
Unholy and Survival are definitely underpowered in 4.2, and are getting buffed to compensate in 4.3. However, the point that Xelnath was trying to make, I think, is that they’re not as far behind as people think they are. With just a couple minor buffs, these specs are able to be competitive, in at least some encounters. Subtlety is a good example of this already: Subtlety is a very difficult rotation to play, and suffers quite a lot of drawbacks. But in some encounters, those drawbacks can be mitigated, such that it becomes the optimal spec. For example, the top Subtlety rogues are beating the top Combat and Assassination rogues on Baleroc, since that fight plays to Subtlety’s strengths. Will Subtlety win on every fight? No, probably not. But they’re not nearly as far behind as most players think, and sometimes can even be better. We’re hoping the changes to Survival and Unholy (and Destruction, and Beast Mastery) in 4.3 will help push those specs into a similar situation. We really hope people give these specs a chance.


Can I quote this at the Pure v. Hybrid folks when they say there is no advantage?



dont do it! Last time I quoted a blue regarding the pure vs hybrid thing they banned me for it. Just roll a druid then your g2g for whatever the flavor of the week happens to be.
Edited by Andysux on 11/12/2011 10:05 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12620
I don’t know how to play your class – you guys are the masters there. Sometimes an “underpowered” spec is actually just underloved.

We've always kind of assumed whatever in-house data Blizz collects about the various classes and specs, it has to be better than anything our theorycrafters can come up with. You say the underperforming specs are actually fine, while our theorycrafters say otherwise. Our theorycrafters have numbers, and you have a philosophy and conjecture.

Now I would be willing to lend you some credit if I were still believing the data Blizz has access to ultimately rivals anything we can simulate, but I guess there's a problem here. A tool's pretty useless if you don't know how to use it.

So why should we believe you? You say the specs have the potential, but you have no proof. How can you say with confidence the specs really are competitive without any proof?
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85 Human Mage
5865
the old soft shoe dance
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
9650
The state of survival hunters make me so sad, and on the PTR it's not much better, I understand Blizzard wants to make dps a skilled (lol) skill to have, but no matter how Jaedong micro's Mutalisks they'd still die if they only had 20 hp each. That's like how the Survival spec is right now. Jangbi can't do the most bad !@# psi-storm ever without 75 Energy in his templars. BoxeR can't do Bunker Rushes if he had only 3 minerals. and Flash can't macro if he's got all the gas in the world and not an ounce of minerals. that's what Survival is like.

The mechanics, the numbers just doesn't add up. God Flash can't save the BM/SV tree if he tried. Teach me Blizzard what wonderful micro management must I do to make SV perform good, what kind of godly macro micro drop ship micro, magic box, reaver/shuttle, PLAYYYYGUUU, Stutter step, Marine split, Miracle must I do to out perform Marksmanship in anything?

Tell me is there more to the class than to do my rotation? if there is what is it. What miracle build are you devs hiding from us?

What is the Metagame that you have envisioned? because right now I see Mages Warlocks and Hybrids.
Edited by Blasterion on 11/14/2011 6:26 PM PST
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11/11/2011 11:51 AMPosted by Karamok


People will most definitely "give them a chance". They have on the PTR and they will on live, but the problem is, when those specs aren't pulling near the same dps on dummys, and those specs don't have fights that suit their niche playstyle, then it will be the same thing all over again.

People don't leave specs because someone says it isn't as good, people leave them when they realize the numbers just aren't there. This is not a chicken and egg situation.

Good players know the best possible dps before even going into the first fight, it makes perfect sense that the easiest advantage will come from the spec with the most room for error and the most dps, and that is what players gravitate towards.

Numbers aren't misrepresented because there aren't enough players. Those players left those specs because the numbers were proving to be low. This is not the first time the player base, with infinitely more manpower and testing capability than blizzard, has been told they are doing it wrong. :(


This is my question, too. How can it be that the perceptions are so strong amongst the playerbase, and yet the devs try to rationalize it.

People don't just gravitate away from a spec because the top players haven't figured out how to play it. While there is a stigma attached to playing SV it's not because of some underground movement to defame the spec. It's because the numbers just weren't there and even the most stalwart SV proponents eventually had to admit that MM performs with more effectiveness and have chosen to switch.

These things aren't community-wide errors, or ignorance, or some sort of player engendered bigotry. The specs aren't as good and they need help. Some days it's like the devs can't see the forest for the trees because they're too busy justifying the leaves to themselves.


Ya know...ya say that, but then you look at stuff like Arms Warriors and it basically debunks the entire argument.

Arms and Fury are literally within 5% of each other. In fact, they're probably the closest any class has to perfect balance between their dps specs. Yet when you look at the representation of Arms vs. Fury the numbers are so incredibly skewed towards Fury that you would think Arms would have to be utter garbage in order to justify so few people playin it. Yet that isn't the case and because of such a massive disparity between Arms and Fury representation the numbers make Arms look far worse than it actually is. After that comes the ignorant mass of people who probably just aren't that great complainin that their dps is bad because Arms is a bad spec when the more likely reason is that they themselves are just bad.

Frost is another example of a spec that has such an incredibly bad stigma attached to it. Its not as close to Arcane damage as an Arms warrior is to a Fury warrior, but its not nearly far enough to justify the incredible difference in representation on sites like raidbots or worldoflogs.

The problem is the really bad trickle down effect that happens in WoW. People see world first guilds usin specific specs and specific gearin and read about how said guilds felt that such and such spec just didn't bring enough to the raid and they try to copy those guilds. Then when those people teach new players, or get into randoms, or just while talkin to random people they say the same things as the top guilds in the world say, but leave out bits and pieces such as the part about how such and such spec didn't bring enough to this one specific encounter or whatever. Before you know it you end up with a message that should read somethin like "In order to beat this encounter while massively undergeared, or raid had to do _____ and bring only ____ spec for whatever reason" and turned it into "_____ spec is trash."

The biggest issue with most underperformin specs is community perception. Do some specs have legitimate problems? Yes, but the biggest issue is there aren't enough people out there willin to actually give it a real shot and too many people who either dismiss it outright or try it in the wrong gear and with less than optimal amounts of knowledge on the spec then dismiss it as trash when they inevitably do trash dps.
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85 Draenei Hunter
11685


This is my question, too. How can it be that the perceptions are so strong amongst the playerbase, and yet the devs try to rationalize it.

People don't just gravitate away from a spec because the top players haven't figured out how to play it. While there is a stigma attached to playing SV it's not because of some underground movement to defame the spec. It's because the numbers just weren't there and even the most stalwart SV proponents eventually had to admit that MM performs with more effectiveness and have chosen to switch.

These things aren't community-wide errors, or ignorance, or some sort of player engendered bigotry. The specs aren't as good and they need help. Some days it's like the devs can't see the forest for the trees because they're too busy justifying the leaves to themselves.


Ya know...ya say that, but then you look at stuff like Arms Warriors and it basically debunks the entire argument.

<snip>.


What you're describing sounds reasonable, but I disagree with the assertion that too few people are trying. My guild cycled through a handful of hunters this tier, each for their own silly reasons, but of them at least 3 were diehard SV proponents, of which only one was entirely capable. He was determined to make it work and I gave him permission to try as many fights as SV as he wanted.

His ultimate conclusion was that he simply could not compete in a meaningful manner. On trash he could easily top meters, and even during some heavy aoe phases, such as those on Rhyo and Beth he could spike, but as soon as it returned to single target dps he would disappear from the top of the damage meter and end up towards the lower end of the list. This was all during the first couple of months of FL progression and it simply didn't make sense to let him continue playing a spec that wasn't as effective, especially when were looking for every advantage we could.

The PROBLEM is that the two specs weren't close enough for sufficient number of players to legitimize it. Had they been closer there would have been enough die-hards to keep the spec in the limelight. The fact was that it simply wasn't worthy of that dedication and fell by the wayside.
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90 Tauren Druid
11275
11/14/2011 08:45 PMPosted by Pollia
The biggest issue with most underperformin specs is community perception. Do some specs have legitimate problems? Yes, but the biggest issue is there aren't enough people out there willin to actually give it a real shot and too many people who either dismiss it outright or try it in the wrong gear and with less than optimal amounts of knowledge on the spec then dismiss it as trash when they inevitably do trash dps.


I don't think this is really fair. I can't speak for all the specs/classes, but I can speak to some degree about Mage because I did give Fire a shot on my alt. Arcane is far and away the best personal DPS & raid DPS. I tried Fire on Ragnaros and the burst for the sons of flames is lacking. It's simply too difficult to get a meaningful amount of DPS out on a target that's about to explode if it reaches the hammer. The spec is balanced around average Ignite damage throughout a fight, but you certainly can't rely on Ignite for those targets. It's a fairly potent little dot, but unlike Feral Druid dots, it's not really predictable when you'll get the dot on the target. The spec is also balanced around the use of Hot Streak (pyroblast), but you certainly can't rely on procs for those targets. And you certainly don't rely on Impact Stun to stop a target. Sometimes you get all the procs in the world right when you need them most, other times you get nothing and your whole raid can end up paying for it. It's simply much easier to hit arcane blast once or twice per target and move to the next target. It's that simple as Arcane.

That's just breaking down a small component of one fight. Nevermind the theoretical simcraft single target or even single target in practice.
Edited by Torzak on 11/14/2011 10:14 PM PST
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