Please teach me Blizzard!

85 Troll Death Knight
0
L2Love = More DPS


doesn't sound very DKish


There's a thin line between love and hate.
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100 Human Hunter
8955
Yah but the thing is when your guild is screaming at you to go marks instead of survival because it does SIGNIFICANTLY more damage you're faced with a choice.

Respec.
or
Find a new guild.

I think a lot of players would rather just respec.


on a side note, its not the raw damage of BM that is bad, it's the mechanics and pet issues that's bringing it down.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
8065
Hahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahha

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH !!!!!

Wow.
Ok

So when my pet sits still and does not attack a target, Worms before Rag as a example.....its because they are....

1 Under loved ?
2. Have fewer eyes to see the GIANT WORMS COMMING OUT OF THE LAVA ?
3. Or Blizzard buggy mechanics that have been plaguing BM for 3 EXPANSIONS !

Hmmm....
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I passed this along to Xelnath, as he's the one who made the statement you're referring to. Here's what he has to say:

I’ll own up to this one. Our players are incredibly creative, dedicated and focused on maximizing their classes’ effectiveness. That said, I’ve seen some incredibly talented Subtlety rogues pull off damage nobody thought was possible. Sometimes the truth is hidden out there – when a majority of players are drawn to the current theorycrafted max-dps spec – there’s fewer eyes to find the tricks to maximize the effectiveness of another spec.

I don’t know how to play your class – you guys are the masters there. Sometimes an “underpowered” spec is actually just underloved.

Thanks for the passionate discussion.


So... the truth is out there? We just haven't seen it b/c we are too busy looking at MM?
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Community Manager
11/09/2011 01:31 PMPosted by Waylandyr
So....which is it? We don't know how to play our specs or we do?

When looking at the big picture of class design and performance, the answer is kind of both. I think the point is that specs not played nearly as often as others aren't necessarily underpowered. Our data may show a much smaller percentage of players using certain specs, though a good amount of the people who do use them competitively tend to do very well.

Here's a follow-up from Celestalon:


Unholy and Survival are definitely underpowered in 4.2, and are getting buffed to compensate in 4.3. However, the point that Xelnath was trying to make, I think, is that they’re not as far behind as people think they are. With just a couple minor buffs, these specs are able to be competitive, in at least some encounters. Subtlety is a good example of this already: Subtlety is a very difficult rotation to play, and suffers quite a lot of drawbacks. But in some encounters, those drawbacks can be mitigated, such that it becomes the optimal spec. For example, the top Subtlety rogues are beating the top Combat and Assassination rogues on Baleroc, since that fight plays to Subtlety’s strengths. Will Subtlety win on every fight? No, probably not. But they’re not nearly as far behind as most players think, and sometimes can even be better. We’re hoping the changes to Survival and Unholy (and Destruction, and Beast Mastery) in 4.3 will help push those specs into a similar situation. We really hope people give these specs a chance.
Edited by Zarhym on 11/9/2011 1:52 PM PST
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100 Draenei Death Knight
12500
apparently I am missing something here... to what comment/blog/post are people complaining about exactly? link plz??
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100 Human Rogue
12040
I play with an unholy DK as a sub rogue and we do just fine maybe not the top on the charts every fight but the bosses die. As for bm hunters I don't what to tell other then L2 reroll I guess, sorry
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61 Tauren Shaman
9525
on a side note, its not the raw damage of BM that is bad, it's the mechanics and pet issues that's bringing it down.


This is most of Unholy's problem too, and I didn't really notice it until 4.0 shifted more of our total damage towards the pet, and gave us a pet DPS boost that's tied to the player. You have my condolences.
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I loved Unholy. Love Unholy.

The reason I switched the Frost in Cataclysm wasn't because of the DPS loss. It was because the horrible counter-intuitive Festering Strike/Plague Strike combo made it confusing and clunky to use any of my other abilities, INCLUDING applying diseases.

It was because my beloved diseases became a lot weaker and a lot harder to manage.

It was because beloved abilities such as Unholy Blight, Shadow of Death, and others were either removed or nerfed to oblivion.

I love Unholy, and if it was fixed, I would probably go back to it. But It is not a point of 1000 DPS. It is a point of the soul of the spec being gutted.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
14590
3% buff to SV will fix it. JK

We need scaling not band-aids.
Edited by Nyess on 11/9/2011 1:43 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Warlock
13180
11/09/2011 01:39 PMPosted by Zarhym
We’re hoping the changes to Survival and Unholy (and Destruction, and Beast Mastery) in 4.3


I would love to see these Changes for Beast Mastery in 4.3 and hopefully it does well in MoP.

Maybe Bullet's Barbed Shot Idead could help in 5.0
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85 Troll Death Knight
0
I hope Xelnath buys Celestalon lunch, because he just got his !@# saved. :p
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85 Orc Death Knight
10205
I hate to be a debbie downer Zarhym, but the main change to Unholy in 4.3 is a pure % modifier buff to Strength...which doesn't actually address any of the mechanical problems that puts Unholy on a lower tier than Frost. Yes, Unholy can and does compete with Frost on stand nuke fights, but we've had exactly ONE of those this tier, and T13 isn't looking too accommodating in that regard. That's where our beef lies in the Frost/Unholy disparity. There are QUITE a few of us that love the spec, but are unable to play it in progression encounters simply due the mechanics vastly favoring Frost. HRag is a great example, as until you've got it on farm, Frost simply outshines Unholy due to burst aoe, target switching and perma-execute range for the actual burn phases.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
13810
11/09/2011 01:39 PMPosted by Zarhym
We really hope people give these specs a chance.


But Zar, why? Why would I want to give Unholy "a chance", when I can get the following with Frost:

*On demand burst, both single target and AoE.
*Not suffering from rapid target switching.
*No clunky ghoul AI mechanics that may or may not work with encounter gimmicks.

Not to mention a couple of silly bugs like the DnD/AMS one.

I get what you're trying to say. Really, I do.

I definitely agree that a LOT of Unholy's shortcomings right now have more to do with encounter design than the spec itself.

The problem is, when nearly every encounter calls for a variant of what I mentioned above, why wouldn't I choose a spec like Frost unless I wanted to gimp my raid?
I'm afraid that "near similar numbers" in the end, just don't cut it for me.
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100 Human Rogue
12040
Yah but the thing is when your guild is screaming at you to go marks instead of survival because it does SIGNIFICANTLY more damage you're faced with a choice.

Respec.
or
Find a new guild.

I think a lot of players would rather just respec.


on a side note, its not the raw damage of BM that is bad, it's the mechanics and pet issues that's bringing it down.
I would chose option two because I pay for my game time so I chose the way I want to play
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100 Troll Hunter
12185
11/09/2011 01:39 PMPosted by Zarhym
not played nearly as often as others aren't necessarily underpowered.


They're not played as often because they're either garbage even in the best possible scenario (Patchwerk-style) and it's lacking, or mechanics not working sometimes or just buggy.

11/09/2011 01:39 PMPosted by Zarhym
Unholy and Survival are definitely underpowered in 4.2, and are getting buffed to compensate in 4.3.


I'm sorry but that hardly counts as a "buff" when the players have given valid feedback to help ALL THREE SPECS. Just reverting the 4.0.6 unneeded nerf doesn't make it a buff, sorry it's a 3% buff - but barely makes a difference.
Edited by Naumu on 11/9/2011 1:52 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13215
I passed this along to Xelnath, as he's the one who made the statement you're referring to. Here's what he has to say:

I’ll own up to this one. Our players are incredibly creative, dedicated and focused on maximizing their classes’ effectiveness. That said, I’ve seen some incredibly talented Subtlety rogues pull off damage nobody thought was possible. Sometimes the truth is hidden out there – when a majority of players are drawn to the current theorycrafted max-dps spec – there’s fewer eyes to find the tricks to maximize the effectiveness of another spec.

I don’t know how to play your class – you guys are the masters there. Sometimes an “underpowered” spec is actually just underloved.

Thanks for the passionate discussion.

Haven't blues in the past also said that a very small percentage of WoW's playerbase post on or even visit the forums? That most just play what they like, and to hell with number crunches and theorycrafting?

And yet these specs still remain less popular even amongst all of these players. How should we interpret that, if what the masses are doing can be cited? Or can they only be referenced in Blizzard's defense?
Edited by Mertil on 11/9/2011 1:53 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
11/09/2011 01:25 PMPosted by Zarhym
Sometimes an “underpowered” spec is actually just underloved.


I can't play frost on my mage if my raid leader won't let me. You have to do better with balancing if you want the 'pvp' or 'who knows what it's good for; leveling?' specs to be taken seriously.
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