I don't get why the MoP int change is needed

85 Blood Elf Priest
XP
1830
Title says it all. Warning, long read ahead.

I mean, things work as they are now, why change them? The main reason I've heard proposed for the change is that lower geared healers both heal for less, and heal less often due to a smaller mana bar, problems which taken together compound each other. On the other hand, completely geared-out healers not only heal for more, but they can do a lot more of it without running out of mana, which leads to the existence of "godly" healers.

It's a true point, and it would be valid too if mobs and players NEVER SCALED IN HEALTH AND DAMAGE.

I mean, sure, the freshly 85 healer in Cata might not be able to heal very much, but that's why she starts with the normal heroics, then moves on to ZA/ZG and 4.0 raids, and then finally to 4.2 FL raids as her gearing permits. I have no doubt that the fully epiced out 378/391 healer with the 150k mana bar is having just as tough a time healing H Rag as the 333 healer making her way through Grim Batol.

I really think this "infinite mana" problem, if it is indeed a problem, is more of a balancing problem than a mechanic problem. If healers have infinite mana, it's because encounters aren't challenging enough to tax healer mana. The solution, then, is to go tweak the encounter, not change the functioning of a stat that's worked that way since vanilla.

I don't doubt for one second that Blizzard can make the new design work. They definitely can. It's just that I don't see the point of the new system in comparison to the old one, which was working fine. Instead of balancing boss damage to match healer mana bars, they are balancing healer mana bars to match boss damage.

For one, this requires a lot more work (which, if it wasn't obvious, takes away development time from balancing other, more pressing issues), and two, it seems like a nerf to players. I know that it's not really a nerf, assuming that Blizzard gets it right, but it feels like one, and feeling is very important to player happiness and satisfaction, and therefore player retention. I mean, why make healers feel weaker and less excited about new pieces of gear when you can achieve the same effect by correctly balancing raid damage, which results in the identical outcome of taxing healer mana while preserving that feeling of power and satisfaction when a new piece of gear drops and you see your mana bar extend when you equip it?

It really is just a pointless and time-comsuming change, and I say reverse it Blizz. Don't let it go live.
Edited by Aevera on 11/10/2011 4:23 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11560
Intellect - primary stats in general - is too powerful. Intellect is crit and regen and throughput at the same time, and far more of the latter two than spirit and your second best throughput stat combined. And it's always on every piece of gear. It's boring like that.

It appears that the plan is to make each stat do something different.

Spirit gives regen.
Int gives flat power per heal.
Crit gives chance of double power.
Haste gives more casts per minute.
Mastery gives a spec-related bonus.

It looks like a good setup if I have it right.
Edited by Ehcks on 11/10/2011 5:26 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10580
Healers scale too well with gear and it prevents them from truly implementing the triage model they want and making mana matter.
1 Tauren Druid
0
Healers don't scale as well with gear as DPS do, though.

How will this change affect PvP? We spent time in early Cataclysm where many healers struggled to feel important in PvP, their mana just didn't last and the DPS could keep DPS'ing forever.

Also, this issue is felt by SOME not all, healers. This "endless mana" situation is due to regen mechanics that work off of mana pool rather than scaling with spirit. We could keep Int as it is now and switch ALL healers to the same spirit-based regen mechanics and this just wouldn't be an issue. Intellect would mean you get slightly more mana to start out with and slightly more regen because of the way combat regen is calculated, but it would be nowhere near like it is now with some classes who don't even need spirit when they have enough Int.
Edited by Imuatu on 11/10/2011 5:43 PM PST
90 Orc Shaman
7325
If the solution to larger mana pools is to simply make players cast more often, we can quickly get to a place where you must always be casting, non stop, or the raid wipes.

That's very much what the previous expansion did. You would cast your most expensive heal constantly, while stacking nothing but haste (which is a mana drain), and you still didn't run out of mana.

That means things need to hit even harder, or nobody will ever die. So, people would get 1 or 2 shot. It was the only way to provide the possibility of failure.

We're edging toward that end of things in 4.3. I think Blizzard sees that, and they want to do it better in MoP.

I'm a little confused as to what would not feel good about the new system, though? I don't understand what would feel bad about it.
Edited by Bokthra on 11/10/2011 5:42 PM PST
1 Tauren Druid
0
It doesn't feel right when mana is never a concern, and it doesn't feel right when it's always just terrible to have a piece of gear without spirit on it.
90 Blood Elf Priest
10945
Look at a disc priest or resto druid.

Spirit isn't even a regen stat to them in current tier gear. Its roughly on par with resilience unless you're doing something wrong.

This is entirely because of how they scale with intellect. And even for the people who aren't disc/resto druids, intellect is by far better than everything else for everything. Unless it doesn't increase max mana pools, it pretty much always will be- barring some dramatic overhaul (again) to the regen model.
85 Blood Elf Priest
XP
1830
It appears that the plan is to make each stat do something different.

Spirit gives regen.
Int gives flat power per heal.
Crit gives chance of double power.
Haste gives more casts per minute.
Mastery gives a spec-related bonus.

It looks like a good setup if I have it right.


But can't you see how similar that is to the way things work now? Remove the mana bonus and tiny amount of crit you gain from intellect, and you have Blizz's new model. The net effect? Make healers just barely feel more powerful with each new piece of gear.

The reason I say barely is because mana is much more important to the overall feel of gearing up as a healer than just, say, a spellpower increase. This is because healing is equally a mana game and a numbers game, whereas, say, dps is just a numbers game (Blizz has stated mana is not supposed to matter as a dps). When you equip a new piece of gear as a healer, you feel rewarded in both areas. Remove the mana increase, and that reward just got cut in half.

This results in balance, yes, but at the cost of overall fun when you could accomplish the same balance by adjusting encounter numbers accordingly, without directly changing mana itself.

If the solution to larger mana pools is to simply make players cast more often, we can quickly get to a place where you must always be casting, non stop, or the raid wipes.

That's very much what the previous expansion did. You would cast your most expensive heal constantly, while stacking nothing but haste (which is a mana drain), and you still didn't run out of mana.


The only thing wrong with the wrath model was that you never ran out of mana. In Cata, you will eventually run out of mana if you cast nonstop in demanding enough situations, especially using your most expensive heal. Blizz simply needs to create those situations, not change the way healer mana functions.

And, I don't really see a problem with healers casting nonstop, since dps are always attacking nonstop, and tanks are always maintaining threat nonstop. The model where healers absolutely had to stop casting is gone. I am, of course, talking about the 5 second rule of healing.

11/10/2011 05:41 PMPosted by Bokthra
I'm a little confused as to what would not feel good about the new system, though? I don't understand what would feel bad about it.


The fact that upon equipping a new piece of gear, the mana increase that healers are so used to is now gone.

Look at a disc priest or resto druid.

Spirit isn't even a regen stat to them in current tier gear. Its roughly on par with resilience unless you're doing something wrong.

This is entirely because of how they scale with intellect. And even for the people who aren't disc/resto druids, intellect is by far better than everything else for everything. Unless it doesn't increase max mana pools, it pretty much always will be- barring some dramatic overhaul (again) to the regen model.


Blizz has already stated they plan to bring the value of primary and secondary stats closer together in 5.0, which I assume means either decrease the value of int, increase the value of spirit, or a combination of both. Either way, I feel that is more than enough to fix the problem when combined with appropriate numbers fixes in the relevant areas in the game, without having to resort to changing the way int works.
Edited by Aevera on 11/10/2011 6:14 PM PST
85 Tauren Druid
7700
11/10/2011 06:05 PMPosted by Aevera
Blizz has already stated they plan to bring the value of primary and secondary stats closer together in 5.0, which I assume means either decrease the value of int, increase the value of spirit, or a combination of both. Either way, I feel that is more than enough to fix the problem when combined with appropriate numbers fixes in the relevant areas in the game, without having to resort to changing the way int works.


As others have stated, Int is a 'super stat.' They need to kick Int down a notch or else people would still gem/chant for int over spirit.
90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
11/10/2011 06:05 PMPosted by Aevera
The reason I say barely is because mana is much more important to the overall feel of gearing up as a healer than just, say, a spellpower increase. This is because healing is equally a mana game and a numbers game, whereas, say, dps is just a numbers game (Blizz has stated mana is not supposed to matter as a dps). When you equip a new piece of gear as a healer, you feel rewarded in both areas. Remove the mana increase, and that reward just got cut in half.

This. The size of our heals doesn't scale for sh!t. I can literally - literally, as in I have actually done this - heal a reasonable group of sub-346-geared players through the entry 5m heroics as Holy in item level 264 gear. The heals are plenty big enough; the only point of stress is my mana. The only real power gain I feel from adding ~80 item levels and practically tripling all my stats is the mana scaling. The heals sure as hell aren't 3 times bigger or 3 times faster from that stat-tripling; I gain...maybe 30% heal size and take about 5% off the cast times?

Removing mana scaling is basically the same thing as removing healer scaling. It's a terrible, terrible idea.
85 Blood Elf Priest
XP
1830
11/10/2011 06:16 PMPosted by Koaleaf
Blizz has already stated they plan to bring the value of primary and secondary stats closer together in 5.0, which I assume means either decrease the value of int, increase the value of spirit, or a combination of both. Either way, I feel that is more than enough to fix the problem when combined with appropriate numbers fixes in the relevant areas in the game, without having to resort to changing the way int works.


As others have stated, Int is a 'super stat.' They need to kick Int down a notch or else people would still gem/chant for int over spirit.


That's what they are doing, and if you read my post correctly, you would find that I support that.
90 Orc Shaman
7325
Aevera, I think I understand your concern now.

Think of it like this, though; rather than getting a direct mana boost, you're going to lean on regen more. Casters will still cast more often as they gear up, but the problem won't compound as quickly. I suspect regen may wind up being quite satisfying.

We won't be put in a place were we can't feel the difference between tier 14 and tier 15.
85 Tauren Druid
7700
I should probably elaborate more:

If Int still increased your maximum mp then it would still, in a round about way, increase the amount of mana you would have at your disposal over the course of a fight.

I think once they normalize mana pools they can really see the effect of Innervates/Hymns/Plea and other such effects. If we continue to increase mana pools with Int we will still see increased regen from these abilities if they continue to exist in MoP. Otherwise, they would probably need to change to flat returns or boosts to spirit.

Edited by Koaleaf on 11/10/2011 6:35 PM PST
85 Night Elf Priest
4975

...The size of our heals doesn't scale for sh!t. I can literally - literally, as in I have actually done this - heal a reasonable group of sub-346-geared players through the entry 5m heroics as Holy in item level 264 gear. The heals are plenty big enough; the only point of stress is my mana. The only real power gain I feel from adding ~80 item levels and practically tripling all my stats is the mana scaling. The heals sure as hell aren't 3 times bigger or 3 times faster from that stat-tripling; I gain...maybe 30% heal size and take about 5% off the cast times?

Removing mana scaling is basically the same thing as removing healer scaling. It's a terrible, terrible idea.


I would not worry about it.

It the same post Blizzard explicitly stated that healers with raid gear will have far more mana.

and healers after multiple tiers of raid progression will clearly have far more mana at their disposal


This means that they intend to implement a stat in the gear that gives mana. Apparently it will not be intellect. I wonder if it will a new stat that does not exist today....
Edited by Lygion on 11/10/2011 6:44 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Priest
XP
1830
Aevera, I think I understand your concern now.

Think of it like this, though; rather than getting a direct mana boost, you're going to lean on regen more. Casters will still cast more often as they gear up, but the problem won't compound as quickly. I suspect regen may wind up being quite satisfying.

We won't be put in a place were we can't feel the difference between tier 14 and tier 15.


Well, then the problem becomes that one gets so much regen that, when combined with bigger heals, means that healers will be sitting at full mana a lot of the time. And this state shouldn't be too hard to reach since mana pools will be static, not increasing, in MoP. Eventually healers will cast heals simply to drop their mana bar below 100%. At that point, you're not casting spells because you have to, but because hey, you might as well since you're sitting at 100% mana, right?

There is such a thing as too much regen. Once you get to that point, then it feels like wrath again where you never run out of mana. I prefer the Cata model where you start out with a larger mana pool that steadily decreases over the course of a fight. Spirit increases regen in a way such that your mana should never actually go up in any large amounts, but rather goes up in a way that simply slows down the rate at which your bar drains. The game, then, is to manage your mana so that it runs out or is close to running out at the end of an encounter, but not before.

In the new model, it doesn't seem like your mana will ever run out, because once it hits that zero point regen will bump it back up to usable levels in a short amount of time (relatively speaking).

[quote] This means that they intend to implement a stat in the gear that gives mana. Apparently it will not be intellect. I wonder if it will a new stat that does not exist today....


This could just mean that the mana pool remains the same, but since it regenerates faster and faster with better gear, your effective mana pool will be greater.
Edited by Aevera on 11/10/2011 6:47 PM PST
90 Orc Shaman
7325
Actually, I'm currious. If you don't mind me asking...

Aevera, are you for or against the new efficient heal everyone got in Cata?
85 Blood Elf Priest
XP
1830
Actually, I'm currious. If you don't mind me asking...

Aevera, are you for or against the new efficient heal everyone got in Cata?


For.
90 Orc Shaman
7325
Thanks. I'm just trying to get a clear picture. Soaking in the information.

I'm going to edit this post in a bit, once I've considered things more.

Edit:

My apologies. I'm moving my reply to a new post. It's a long one. Very sorry.
Edited by Bokthra on 11/10/2011 9:22 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
Aevera, I think I understand your concern now.

Think of it like this, though; rather than getting a direct mana boost, you're going to lean on regen more. Casters will still cast more often as they gear up, but the problem won't compound as quickly. I suspect regen may wind up being quite satisfying.

We won't be put in a place were we can't feel the difference between tier 14 and tier 15.

Is Spirit scaling going to be drastically improved then? Because right now, Spirit double-dips - the more Int you have, the bigger your mana pool, the more value you get from each point of Spirit.

Honestly, I disagree that there's a "problem" that is "compounding." The problem at the end of Wrath for four of the five specs was that, for example, a paladin in full ICC25 gear would start off an encounter by applying Beacon to tank 1, begin casting Holy Light on tank 2, and repeat without pausing until the boss died, while wearing gear with zero MP5.

There is no class in Cata that even approaches that; everyone's wearing at least 1500 Spirit with most people sitting near 2500, and nobody - nobody - is chain-casting a single spell, much less their highest-throughput spell. What we're doing is spending most of our time selecting from among a fairly wide range of interesting spells that don't suck. Which contrasts with t11 in that we're not spending large amounts of time doing nothing/regenerating mana (Disc, druid) or casting a spell that sucks (everyone else).
90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
(Just for the record, while I agree with Aevera on the subject of this thread, I am firmly against the new so-called-efficient-heal-that's-actually-the-second-or-third-least-efficient-heal.)
Edited by Kaels on 11/10/2011 7:02 PM PST
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