I don't get why the MoP int change is needed

14 Gnome Mage
0

...The size of our heals doesn't scale for sh!t. I can literally - literally, as in I have actually done this - heal a reasonable group of sub-346-geared players through the entry 5m heroics as Holy in item level 264 gear. The heals are plenty big enough; the only point of stress is my mana. The only real power gain I feel from adding ~80 item levels and practically tripling all my stats is the mana scaling. The heals sure as hell aren't 3 times bigger or 3 times faster from that stat-tripling; I gain...maybe 30% heal size and take about 5% off the cast times?

Removing mana scaling is basically the same thing as removing healer scaling. It's a terrible, terrible idea.


I would not worry about it.

It the same post Blizzard explicitly stated that healers with raid gear will have far more mana.

and healers after multiple tiers of raid progression will clearly have far more mana at their disposal


This means that they intend to implement a stat in the gear that gives mana. Apparently it will not be intellect. I wonder if it will a new stat that does not exist today....
They should implement a new stat called "spellpower" and have it give healers more maximum mana.

No, what they meant by raid geared healers having more mana was that through regen, their total mana pools (not max mana) will be larger.

Between the possibility of "item squish" and removing intellect/mana scaling, there are going to be a lot of players that feel like their character is not becoming more powerful in MoP (even if in reality it is). That's a sure formula for losing more subscriptions.

Current model is fine, and this dramatic change comes during volatile subscription rates. Good choice.
Edited by Mouthwash on 11/10/2011 8:26 PM PST
90 Orc Shaman
7325
Ok, I get your preference with the slowly draining mana bar, rather than a regen model. It's not my preference, but that's cool. I'm not going to criticize you for having an opinion.

I also understand your position that under extreme circumstances, fast regen would be like a rogue or hunter resource bar. That would be crazy.

So far, so good. Now for some thoughts:

You're for the efficient heal system, which I agree with, so we're on board with Blizz up to that point. It looks like they also like it, and they're going to keep that system in place for MoP.

We're also aware that the 3 heal system isn't working well at the moment. Nobody is using it, because damage and gear scaled so much. So, if we add even greater damage, we are likely to continue using our big heals instead of the efficient heals, further negating the 3 heal system. We won't have time to be efficient.

That brings me to the whole regen thing. I'm asking myself what sounds reasonable. The Devs are smart, so what might they do?

I bet our starting mana bar won't be tiny, in relation to spell costs. They'll want plenty of room to allow regen to grow, without making us feel like a rogues.

As a point of reference, I think I'm averaging 300-400% mana regen in today's raids. That's 3-4 mana bars over 6 minutes, and it still feels slow. (My estimate is surely off, but it's close enough for reference.) Regen has a lot of wiggle room with a big enough base pool.

Now on to Int. I'm looking at my own mana, and I realize I've gained a mere 10,000 mana between t11-t12. That's like 2 spells worth of mana. It's almost nothing. Not only is that increase nothing to miss, it's also nothing to desire, compared to regen. So what's the problem with Int then?

In today's environment Int is regen.
1) It increases spirit regen value.
2) It increases Replenishment value.
3) Additinally, it adds a flat ammount of mana on top. Best of all worlds.

Int is a huge chunk of mana, once you add up all the regen effects. This would not be true if int int wasn't attached to regen mechanics.

So, why not just remove all the regen mechanics attached to Int?
Answer: They are.

Ok, so why also remove the mana from int, then? Isn't that overkill?
Answer: To make you chose mana OR throughput. Not both at the same time. Int or spirit. It makes each stat more valuable, based on what you need most. You'll also balance spirit OR haste/crit/mastery.

From a design standpoint, we can infer that these changes will make it FAR easier to balance and manage the game as well, which is good for everyone.

TL;DR

It looks like our experience will likely feel extremely similar to what we've already got, but more controlled and refined. Regen is already the majority of our mana. So that won't really change.

So my question is (and I am genuine in my asking) is there anything wrong with this? Still any concerns? Maybe I've missed something important?

I enjoy thinking about this kind of stuff, so I'm still all ears for those who want to talk.
Edited by Bokthra on 11/10/2011 9:42 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Priest
XP
1830
In today's environment Int is regen.
1) It increases spirit regen value.
2) It increases Replenishment value.
3) Additinally, it adds a flat ammount of mana on top. Best of all worlds.

Int is a huge chunk of mana, once you add up all the regen effects. This would not be true if int int wasn't attached to regen mechanics.

So, why not just remove all the regen mechanics attached to Int?
Answer: They are.

Ok, so why also remove the mana from int, then? Isn't that overkill?
Answer: To make you chose mana OR throughput. Not both at the same time. Int or spirit. It makes each stat more valuable, based on what you need most.

From a design standpoint, we can infer that these changes will make it FAR easier to balance and manage the game as well, which is good for everyone.


Replenishment is being removed, which reduces the value of mana-based int. Regen is being removed from int, which further reduces its value. Both part of their plan to bring int and spirit closer together. Why remove mana from int after these nerfs then?

Well, you asked that in your reply, and your response was to make the player choose between mana or throughput. Except, the player is not choosing. Int is on every piece of gear as a primary stat. You're always getting throughput. You can choose spirit as a secondary stat among crit, haste, or mastery, but not int. Therefore, it is inaccurate to say that the removal of mana from intellect is to provide choice, because it doesn't.

To me, this decision still represents an attempt by the devs to improve the situation of healers that could be accomplished through other much easier, less time-consuming, and less disruptive ways.
Edited by Aevera on 11/10/2011 9:42 PM PST
90 Orc Shaman
7325
11/10/2011 09:39 PMPosted by Aevera
Int is on every piece of gear as a primary stat. You're always getting throughput.


Gems and enchants.

I went ahead and specified other options. Thanks. I did miss something.

So even with no regen attached, and a roughly mere 10,000 mana per tier, mana from int is still important to you?

I wonder, then, what the extra 10k mana means to you. Or do would you also prefer the regen mechanics stays as well?
85 Blood Elf Priest
XP
1830
I think things are fine as they are. Mana from int, regen from spirit, rather than no mana from int, ridiculous regen from spirit. Wasted effort in my opinion.

Keep in mind that's it's not just 10k mana I'm debating over. It's development time/resources being poured into a system that's not really an upgrade but a "sidegrade," loss of the feel of gaining power as you acquire gear, and even simple stuff like looking at a fresh level 85's 90k mana bar and comparing it to your own 130k bar and feeling a clear sense of progression and improvement.

Remember, it's not all about numbers either; it's also about fun. Seeing your mana bar distinctly growing with every new gear drop is much more fun than seeing your regen go from 3500 to 3550 or spellpower from 9000 to 9050 (both of which already happen as well).
90 Orc Death Knight
8960
11/10/2011 04:19 PMPosted by Aevera
The solution, then, is to go tweak the encounter, not change the functioning of a stat that's worked that way since vanilla.


Int has never given spellpower before Cata. That's the problem, before you choose mana or SP, now you get both.
85 Blood Elf Priest
XP
1830
The solution, then, is to go tweak the encounter, not change the functioning of a stat that's worked that way since vanilla.


Int has never given spellpower before Cata. That's the problem, before you choose mana or SP, now you get both.


Again, not a choice, since int was on all pieces of gear, as was spellpower. Now they just removed the spellpower from gear and rolled it into int. The net effect was zero, since they were both on all pieces of gear at the same time anyway. This was another change that was never really needed, sort of like this proposed int/spirit change, but at least it was easy to balance, since any discrepancies between the amount of spellpower one had before and after the change could just be balanced by lopping on spellpower to caster weapons as necessary, which is what they did.

This change requires far more time and effort to balance properly for another net effect of essentially zero.
Edited by Aevera on 11/10/2011 10:21 PM PST
90 Orc Shaman
7325
I guess I can buy that some people might miss the blue bar getting bigger. Everybody has their own idea of progress.

Interestingly, we are polar opposites in this matter. I have never once been concerned with my actual mana pool. My mind takes it for granted, and starts looking at regen.

I'm the same way with attack power. (str or agi) My brain: "Yeah, yeah, atp, whatever. Stack it to max. Now what are my actual choices?" =P
90 Orc Death Knight
8960
11/10/2011 10:17 PMPosted by Aevera
The net effect was zero, since they were both on all pieces of gear at the same time anyway.


What? No? Do you know anything about gems or enchants? I gemmed int on my Paladin during wrath, but certainly didn't for my other healers.
90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
I guess I can buy that some people might miss the blue bar getting bigger. Everybody has their own idea of progress.

Interestingly, we are polar opposites in this matter. I have never once been concerned with my actual mana pool. My mind takes it for granted, and starts looking at regen.

I'm the same way with attack power. (str or agi) My brain: "Yeah, yeah, atp, whatever. Stack it to max. Now what are my actual choices?" =P

Well, I frankly don't care about the blue bar getting bigger - except that the blue bar getting bigger affects regen scaling. That's not only true of the max-mana-scaled regen mechanics but also of Spirit regen.

Unless they intend to drastically improve Spirit scaling, this is just an enormous regen-scaling nerf. Since they appear to be doing this specifically to nerf healers/healer scaling and keep their horrible "mana matters so you should spend half the fight doing nothing/casting a horrible pathetic heal that takes forever to accomplish nothing" model intact throughout the expansion, I suspect Spirit scaling will remain largely the same.

I don't understand why they don't want healers to feel like we get more powerful. I don't understand why they don't want our spell selection to change, or why they don't want us mostly casting interesting and effective spells, or why they want us to feel powerless and ineffective forever. But it seems that they do, and this is just another step in that direction.

I was excited about MoP. Genuinely excited. I loved the new talent trees. I loved that they were thinking "outside the box" and was hoping that they'd be going a different direction with healing as well. But this announcement, to me, is saying "you're getting more of the same, but worse." How many more scaling nerfs are they going to shove down our throats? I'm getting fed up.
85 Orc Shaman
5985
11/10/2011 05:27 PMPosted by Wasselin
Healers scale too well with gear and it prevents them from truly implementing the triage model they want and making mana matter.


DPS scales better than healers with gear.

Healers can, at best, double their thoughput from fresh lvl 85 to full firelands gear, even when they can cast more heals per second, in terms of power they can double it.

DPS can do 4 to 5 times their initial power in firelands gear.
85 Orc Shaman
5985
If the solution to larger mana pools is to simply make players cast more often, we can quickly get to a place where you must always be casting, non stop, or the raid wipes.

That's very much what the previous expansion did. You would cast your most expensive heal constantly, while stacking nothing but haste (which is a mana drain), and you still didn't run out of mana.

That means things need to hit even harder, or nobody will ever die. So, people would get 1 or 2 shot. It was the only way to provide the possibility of failure.

We're edging toward that end of things in 4.3. I think Blizzard sees that, and they want to do it better in MoP.

I'm a little confused as to what would not feel good about the new system, though? I don't understand what would feel bad about it.


We are nowhere near that end. Cast your fast heal on stop and your mana wouldn't last even 1 minute.

We are not going to even reach the point where we can cast our most inneficient skill non stop even with t13 heroic gear.

There isn't a single boss in firelands that can two shot a tank except a tank that was previously stacked with something which should have been taunted od decimation blade from baleroc.

We are not there either, where the raid need to two shot tanks.

Dont exxagerate, we are nowhere near those examples you did.
Edited by Gromahk on 11/11/2011 5:53 AM PST
85 Orc Shaman
5985

...The size of our heals doesn't scale for sh!t. I can literally - literally, as in I have actually done this - heal a reasonable group of sub-346-geared players through the entry 5m heroics as Holy in item level 264 gear. The heals are plenty big enough; the only point of stress is my mana. The only real power gain I feel from adding ~80 item levels and practically tripling all my stats is the mana scaling. The heals sure as hell aren't 3 times bigger or 3 times faster from that stat-tripling; I gain...maybe 30% heal size and take about 5% off the cast times?

Removing mana scaling is basically the same thing as removing healer scaling. It's a terrible, terrible idea.


I would not worry about it.

It the same post Blizzard explicitly stated that healers with raid gear will have far more mana.

and healers after multiple tiers of raid progression will clearly have far more mana at their disposal


This means that they intend to implement a stat in the gear that gives mana. Apparently it will not be intellect. I wonder if it will a new stat that does not exist today....


It dfoesnt mean that. It could be that you will have more mana at your disposal because of the regeneration.

I am against another overhaul of healing, i want one expansion, ONE, where my role isn't changed.
90 Human Priest
13615
WAIT A SECOND

I JUST NOTICED MY NAME WAS STOLEN.


As for something actually on topic, it just seems to me that they're still trying to implement a triage system, in that no matter how much int we gain to increase throughput, as boss' attacks will still hit harder we will always have mana "issues" (read: mana management) since our mana won't scale directly with our throughput stat in 5.0.

It just seems like we'll be stacking spirit/+mana/whatever they choose if we need regen now, instead of all int. I suppose that's what they wanted, as well.
85 Blood Elf Priest
2535
I'm always surprised when i see people defending that:

- We have too much mana

If you think that you are either ignoring that we are on the end of a expansion , with BIS gear healing nerfed encounter, or you you think that mana bar should be the main focus of our playstyle.

- Mana is not an issue

Compared to what? Because compared to WotLK mana is still a huge issue. Try to spam your fast heal see how long your mana won't be an issue. The goal was achieved we are NOT healing WotLK style.

- Intelect is too good, people don't need spirit.

Actually RDruids and Disc priests don't need spirit because of their TALENTS. That has nothing to do with regen model, healing model, triage, whatever. This classes have their regen TIED to mana pool, thats why intelect is good to them. Thats why we can afford to regen out of spirit. Check a holy priest and a shaman, see if they are ignoring spirit.

Actually in Disc case i think this is fair. You're trading passive regen for active regen and getting thorughput out of it. Seems like a good deal.

And finally, why ON EARTH, would anyone refuse to feel powerfull at the ending of the scalling curve? You earned it.

90 Blood Elf Priest
7005
pretty much what it comes down to is scaling. Currently gear scales way to powerfully for content and makes us over geared way to fast.

As an example, take a new lvl 85 wearing mostly lvl333 blues and a few lvl346s. Their heals will cost x, they will have around 75k mana, and their heals will heal for y+SP (their Spell Power)

Now take a IL 378 healer:
their heals will still cost x, they will have around 115k mana, and their heals will heal for y+SP (which will be a lot more than it was before).

So as healers get better geared, not only do their heals do a lot more healing, but they have a lot more mana meaning they can cast more spells, and they can also cast their more expensive spells that they couldnt cast before.
So essentially healers are scaling exponentially as their gear improves.
If we only increased our SP as we geared up, then we would be scaling linearly, but were not.

Content on the other hand scales more linearly. Heroic dungeons are harder than reg dungeons, but only by a certain amount.
Then raids are harder than H dungeons, but only by about the same amount.
And Heroic raids are harder than reg raids, but only by about the same amount.

So as you gear up, the conent for which you are gearing will become much easier.
heroic dungeons were harder in lvl 346 gear than T11 raids were in lvl359 gear. And both were harder than FL is in lvl378 gear.
In fact, heroic dungeons in lvl346 gear were still challenging, while FL is a breeze if you have lvl 378 gear.

I think this is what blizz is trying to fix. They want to make it so that when you first get to max lvl, healing isnt going to be really really challenging and you wont be completly mana starved, but also so that when you get geared out for max lvl content it wont be overly easy and mana wont be nearly a non factor.

As it is right now for me, I am geared from reg FL, so I should be able to do reg FL but it should still be somewhat challenging, and getting into heroics should be straight up hard. But what is really happening is that reg FL is too easy, I can 2 heal every fight and as long as Im not being stupid mana isnt much of an issue.
85 Orc Shaman
5985
pretty much what it comes down to is scaling. Currently gear scales way to powerfully for content and makes us over geared way to fast.

As an example, take a new lvl 85 wearing mostly lvl333 blues and a few lvl346s. Their heals will cost x, they will have around 75k mana, and their heals will heal for y+SP (their Spell Power)

Now take a IL 378 healer:
their heals will still cost x, they will have around 115k mana, and their heals will heal for y+SP (which will be a lot more than it was before).

So as healers get better geared, not only do their heals do a lot more healing, but they have a lot more mana meaning they can cast more spells, and they can also cast their more expensive spells that they couldnt cast before.
So essentially healers are scaling exponentially as their gear improves.
If we only increased our SP as we geared up, then we would be scaling linearly, but were not.

Content on the other hand scales more linearly. Heroic dungeons are harder than reg dungeons, but only by a certain amount.
Then raids are harder than H dungeons, but only by about the same amount.
And Heroic raids are harder than reg raids, but only by about the same amount.

So as you gear up, the conent for which you are gearing will become much easier.
heroic dungeons were harder in lvl 346 gear than T11 raids were in lvl359 gear. And both were harder than FL is in lvl378 gear.
In fact, heroic dungeons in lvl346 gear were still challenging, while FL is a breeze if you have lvl 378 gear.

I think this is what blizz is trying to fix. They want to make it so that when you first get to max lvl, healing isnt going to be really really challenging and you wont be completly mana starved, but also so that when you get geared out for max lvl content it wont be overly easy and mana wont be nearly a non factor.

As it is right now for me, I am geared from reg FL, so I should be able to do reg FL but it should still be somewhat challenging, and getting into heroics should be straight up hard. But what is really happening is that reg FL is too easy, I can 2 heal every fight and as long as Im not being stupid mana isnt much of an issue.


But in reality DPS scales better than healers. We scale both healing done and mana, but our healing done scales a lto worse than the damage donde from a dps, thats why our mana also scales.

Dont compare it to Fiorelands, Fireland is a breeze in 378 because it HEAVILY NERFED.

346 heroics are not that challenging in 346 gear today.

The thing is, that we scale worse than the DPS, yet people are getting cunfused and think we scale better because we scale two things, without realizing than those two things scaling are scaling worse than the things scaling in DPS.

Healing in Cata is not scaling that good. Heroic Firelands is still challenging even after being nerfed, and we cant spam our heals without getting oom and we cant heal stupidity, so, there isn't really any need to change it.
90 Blood Elf Priest
7005
I am talking about FL pre nerf.
First several times in FL it was pre nerf and I was IL 358. And I healed 6/7 fine, no difficulties.

The fact that dps scale even worse than healers is irrelevent to the fact that we still scale to powerfully when compaired to the content.
Just because another roll is even more OP for the content, doesnt me that we still arent too Op for the content.

Personally I want more of a challenge. I really want to get into heroics more but my guild seams organizationally to be unable to do it.
And I really dont think that having the gear from a certain content should make you OP for that content (ie. me being geared from reg FL and being way over geared for FL)

and I heal stupid all the time and I spam heals all the time without going oom. No idea what your talking about. maybe its just shaman, Ive only done 6/7 on my shammy, but he was much less geared than you do and I did ok.

But on this toon and my pally I heal stupid all the freeking time. Just last nite on rag a bunch of idiots were getting hit by the fire wave thing and I had to dispell and heal from that. On ryloth idiots are always standing in the mana fissures and getting dmg big time and I heal through that. On alys idiots run through/stand in fire all the time and I heal through that.

And I can chain cast Divine Light (mixed with HS and WoG of course) on my pally. And I can chain cast GH on this toon (mixed with PW:S, pennance and PoM of course) and not go oom.

also on another note:
on my post above I only mentioned the scaling from Spell Power and Max mana (both gained from intel). I didnt even mention the scaling from all the secondary stats. You add those in and we healers because much much more powerful as we gear up, and the conent does not because more difficult porportionally.
Pretty mucyh all this porposed fix is for is making us somewhat more powerful when we get to max level so healing wont be as hard at first, and then not letting us get as powerful for end game conent so it doesnt get as easy.
85 Orc Shaman
5985
I am talking about FL pre nerf.
First several times in FL it was pre nerf and I was IL 358. And I healed 6/7 fine, no difficulties.

The fact that dps scale even worse than healers is irrelevent to the fact that we still scale to powerfully when compaired to the content.
Just because another roll is even more OP for the content, doesnt me that we still arent too Op for the content.

Personally I want more of a challenge. I really want to get into heroics more but my guild seams organizationally to be unable to do it.
And I really dont think that having the gear from a certain content should make you OP for that content (ie. me being geared from reg FL and being way over geared for FL)

and I heal stupid all the time and I spam heals all the time without going oom. No idea what your talking about. maybe its just shaman, Ive only done 6/7 on my shammy, but he was much less geared than you do and I did ok.

But on this toon and my pally I heal stupid all the freeking time. Just last nite on rag a bunch of idiots were getting hit by the fire wave thing and I had to dispell and heal from that. On ryloth idiots are always standing in the mana fissures and getting dmg big time and I heal through that. On alys idiots run through/stand in fire all the time and I heal through that.

And I can chain cast Divine Light (mixed with HS and WoG of course) on my pally. And I can chain cast GH on this toon (mixed with PW:S, pennance and PoM of course) and not go oom.

also on another note:
on my post above I only mentioned the scaling from Spell Power and Max mana (both gained from intel). I didnt even mention the scaling from all the secondary stats. You add those in and we healers because much much more powerful as we gear up, and the conent does not because more difficult porportionally.
Pretty mucyh all this porposed fix is for is making us somewhat more powerful when we get to max level so healing wont be as hard at first, and then not letting us get as powerful for end game conent so it doesnt get as easy.


Becoming more powerfull as we gear up is a good thing.

And i think that your main problem might be more with dungeon difficulty that about healing scaling.

I gave you the example of dps caling even more than us because somehow a lto of people are worried about healers scaling too good but apparently no one realizes dps scales even better than us, and they wont be severely changed because of that.

I think this can be solved by addins less intellect to gear, maybe send some of the ilvl of the inntellect to secondary stats, or maybe even the removal of replenishment halst our mana regen enough, without overhauling our role, which i wont tolerate, not again. I'm too tired of this, i think that its a lack of respect from Blizzard to continuously change us.

And yes, since resto Shammys are in the bottom of the healers but i dont raid with resto shammys only. You are almost at the end tier of the expansion, you should be more powerfull than at the begginning, you should be able to do more things.
85 Blood Elf Priest
2535

The fact that dps scale even worse than healers is irrelevent to the fact that we still scale to powerfully when compaired to the content.


Irrelevant? That would be truth if better dps didn't make boss drop faster and your healing uptime shorter and your mana less pressured.

It is totally relevant.

And even if it wasn't it wouldn't it be odd that healers are the only role that CAN'T, just because, scale like other roles?

On my DK from 346ish to 359ish i went from 9k to 20k DPS. Does healers scale more than this?
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