I don't get why the MoP int change is needed

85 Tauren Paladin
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.

I wish I could agree with the CM on this one but I can't. Right now I don't heal I went Ret and only heal as a sub. I healed for 3 years and stopped because it was no longer fun for me. While I don't like a lot of what Ghostcrawler and his team have done since he joined Blizzard that is what they are paid to do. Healing is one of the most stressful roles that any player can take on and time and time again I see Ghostcrawler and his team make it even harder for healers. I blame Ghostcrawler he is at the top. Healing should be fun. Healers should feel like they are powering up as they get gear it is one of the reasons to raid. Players don't want to be balanced they want to feel powerful. You take that out of the equation and there is now reason to progress your character.

Sadly as time goes on I see a really lack of new ideas in WoW. I not even sure if I will contiune playing in MoP. I've seen Star Wars and I must say the fun factor is there in game. SOmething I haven't had in WoW since BC. Bioware has added some amazing things to their MMO changes that make the game fun and engaging.

Blizzard on the other had has really done nothing to really change WoW for the better. Still have the same graphic models they had in vanilla. Still have quest givers and NPC you could care less about just click on them and click accept. Endless grind that feels like endless grind. If you are going to make us grind at least make it fun.

The point is why change what isn't broken how about working on things to the game fun again.
90 Night Elf Druid
srsly change the mana srsly why o why must u over complicate it so for gods sake just mess with the % mana u get from int . i mean really if u add some other skill or something else a player needs to think about and regulate on top of hit cap and crit and haste and mastery and all the other geming enchanting and so its just gonna make it more complicated for us as gamers and u as designers
85 Draenei Shaman
If anyone has actually thought about this, the main purpose of this change is to level the playing field between max mana-based regen and spirit-based regen. As it stands, some classes can gear for pure intellect and receive both regen and throughput, where other classes have the two disconnected. This change will bring the two to be on par with one another.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
I just want to know how our mana will be calculated! Will it be an arbitrary number based on what level we are at? Why not overhaul the whole resource then?
85 Night Elf Druid
...As I have to tell my students, provide support, give reasons, give examples, and (in your case especially) give solutions.

But from everything Blizzard reps have said thus far, with the removal of Replenishment (about time) and their stated reintegration and re-valuing of all the primary stats, the changes we're discussing here make sense. They need to make Int just be a "hit harder" stat, so they're removing its throughput qualities. Now, that means that, yes, they also need to make The Throughput Stat more meaningful to some classes, but they're bound to see that. They're paid to see that. And if they hadn't before, then surely your 8 (or however many) posts have pointed it out to them.
I think you may have missed half of the blue post that many of us healers are rather up in arms about.

Yes, having intellect no longer increases mana pools may work mechanically, but that misses the point that many healers (and spellcasters!) *like* seeing their mana pools increase as they progress in end-game content. That point is valid and needs to be considered by the dev team regardless of whether the proposed change can be made to work or not, which is still debateable.

But -- and this is key point for us healers so you need to pay attention this time -- the latter part of the blue post indicates the dev team wants the player healing community to use triage-style healing, and that doing so will be more fun for us.

Most of the posts here take exception to that idea.

Triage healing, and by extension the idea of going oom when we don't use triage healing, was a failure in Cata and caused the exodus of many fine healers from the game.

The entire WoW community, not just healers, should be very concerned about the possibility of more healers leaving the game if the devs don't get it right in MoP.

I'm not one of your students but I hope that is clear and concise enough for you.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
People claim they like the high end of the mana pool ramp, but you can't have a high end without a low end. And in Cataclysm that low end was murder and caused a lot of healer frustration and attrition. Blizzard can't afford a repeat of the situation where a new healer feels like they can only afford to use "efficient" heals that hit like wet noodles. And that situation is a necessary result of a design where healer character progression is provided largely by inflating mana pools. Otherwise, if the low end of the ramp is acceptably high, then the high end is way too high at the end of the expansion and they have to make damage so bad that you have to spam your largest heals or wipe.

While new healers can only afford to use their small boring "efficient" heals, the geared healers can only afford to use their big heals (because they can, and if they don't people die). For the geared healers it's somewhat more fun in that the numbers are bigger, but it's still ultimately too simplistic and boring (like Lich King). In order to make it so healers feel they are progressing in MoP, Blizzard will probably have to increase the +heal that INT provides. Keeping mana pools relatively static will keep all levels of heals relevant to all content. We just have to get used to striving for harder hitting heals rather than increasing how many big heals we can cast in a row.
90 Orc Warlock
11/13/2011 10:49 AMPosted by Tzarus
If anyone has actually thought about this, the main purpose of this change is to level the playing field between max mana-based regen and spirit-based regen. As it stands, some classes can gear for pure intellect and receive both regen and throughput, where other classes have the two disconnected. This change will bring the two to be on par with one another.

While this MAY be true in SOME cases (not nearly as much as you think), this can be solved in many different ways. This is a cop-out from Blizz that has the whole community a-buzz. IT honestly boils down to one basic principal that many of us have been saying for years: Leave well-enough ALONE. If you're worried about Int regen throughput, make bosses hit harder? I mean, it can't possibly be THIS hard. You can't just make the scaling skewed for some and not for others. It doesn't work that way. Blizz, how many posts will you need to make you re-think this? This is NOT the kind of change you want right before SWTOR comes out either.
90 Blood Elf Paladin

Triage healing, and by extension the idea of going oom when we don't use triage healing, was a failure in Cata and caused the exodus of many fine healers from the game.

Triage healing cannot have been a failure because it's never been tried. That's what they claimed they were shooting for, but in fact we pretty much went straight from "use only your 'efficient' heal or go oom" to "use only your biggest heal or wipe."

The problem is that players demand a lot of progression in abilities to stay interested and mana pool was the wrong ability to pick to provide that.
100 Blood Elf Paladin

Looks like 1.7 million sub losses weren't enough they're going for 2.7.

What's really frustrating is that they announce this kind of chance two weeks AFTER they offer the Annual Pass program. Coincidence? I think not.

Developer 1: "I really want to make this change but all of the healers are going to rage and stop playing"
Developer 2: "Well what if we find a way to lock them in so they can't quit? Then we can screw with them as much as we want"
Developers 1 & 2" "Brilliant!"

Well, maybe that's not exactly how it probably went but the chain of events is still frustrating

luckily you can opt out of the annual pass, you just lose mount, any MoP beta left and D3 reg edition freebie

the force is becoming stronger in this one since i dont want to do a job that i love to do if I'm no more than a companion/pet/NPC that cant grow and my personal effort through gearing has no major outcome on the result of the fight. At that point i no longer need to log on to do anything because !@# the blue had stated earlier in thread the tanks and dps will get upgrades to increase their survivability making me even less needed. At this point a NPC companion named butters that heals you would be better because if the cata theme goes on they still wont be happy and want to nerf the entire 17 healers left out of the entire batch more because in t16 gear we are regening too fast and able to shell out heals without thought process. You cant even make the varied lengths of fights we have now a days bc of the fixed amounts heals will have unless EVERY fight has a p3 aly regen part to it, and that would get old fast.

Yes i also believe my character grows strong as my mana pool does. If i wanted bigger numbers i would of played ret as my MS instead of something i gear for giggles or better yet play my rogue or mage. I could tank but somehow i feel this will be the start of Niemöllers "First they came of WoW"

First the came for the healers,
and i didn't speak out because i didn't heal

Then they came for the tanks,
and i didn't speak out because i didn't tank

Then they came for the frost mages,
and i didn't speak out bc, well, everyone cries about frost mages,

Then they came for the fanboys that said they could do no wrong,
and there was no one left to speak out for them

lets hope the major outrage is seen before they decide tanks will do better with fixed HP so they can set up how hard bosses hit forever and make agi only give ap so that crit values for feral kitties and rogues doesn't become an issue.

**edited few spelling errors
Edited by Barnabyjones on 11/13/2011 11:31 AM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
I do not ever - for any reason - want to go back to the completely demoralizing place that was Cata healing at the start of the expansion. I do not ever - for any reason - want to return to hating healing with that unmitigated passion, because it sucked so badly.

And I'm sorry, but I don't believe you, and I don't believe the Devs anymore. We told them this would happen when they folded Spellpower into Intellect. We told them and they assured us it wouldn't. They made the choice to have this ridiculous inflation of stats. They made the choice to fold Spellpower into Intellect, despite how many people warned them we would encounter this issue. They chose to ignore the beta testers who warned them that encounter damage was too high and the mana regen nerfs were too drastic. They itemized our gear. They gave us the encounter designs that required that gear itemization.
Reta's rage eloquently speaks for many healers I suspect.
Edited by Treehuggur on 11/13/2011 11:42 AM PST
90 Human Priest
11/10/2011 05:25 PMPosted by Ehcks
Intellect - primary stats in general - is too powerful. Intellect is crit and regen and throughput at the same time, and far more of the latter two than spirit and your second best throughput stat combined. And it's always on every piece of gear. It's boring like that.

I would agree to the point of a regen stat. Not all healers/specs recieve regen from int.
85 Night Elf Druid
Solutions? You want solutions?

I got solutions for you.

The factor that makes healing overly trivial once your party (that's the key word. Your PARTY) outgears it is LESS a factor of healing scaling and more a factor of DPS scaling. It's pretty simple actually. You don't run OoM if a fiight is lasting 2 minutes instead of 3 or 4 minutes instead of 6. Healing on add-heavy fights is simple if the adds are dying quickly. Etc. Healing on tank damage heavy fights is easier as tanks get better gear.

Maybe it's not less, but the other classes scaling DOES heavily come into play. So, if steps have to be taken to reign in healer scaling, then steps ALSO need to be taken in to reign in tank/DPS scaling. As in, it's probably fine to leave Intellect where it is post-item squash, but have spirit be behind ALL mana regeneration. Boom. Issue fixed. At the same time, you can lower coefficients/provide caps for DPS/Tank stats so they don't scale out of control either.

But. This will not be done, because it would be disastrous for the player base. Like it or not, healing is the role where people who heal will by and large take it because we don't really have emotionally satisfying options.

Edit: Do you really know why healing at the beginning of Cata sucked? At least in 5-man content? It wasn't so much that the actual healing was difficult, is that the portion of the playerbase that could do the required DPS was small. But because the punishment for not doing enough DPS was an empty mana pool, all the blame got dropped on the healer.

To Blues: Will you, at the very least, in MoP, provide CHALLENGING enrage timers for Heroic 5-man content (well, LFR content to be more precise, probably), in order to enforce performance standards?
Edited by Karmaze on 11/13/2011 11:49 AM PST
100 Human Priest
11/13/2011 03:23 AMPosted by Ashunera
Max mana increasing is a problem, though. Having 100 more mana effectively is regeneration. It's 100 more mana you will have over the course of the fight. As long as intellect gives you more mana to play with, spirit will feel almost like a pointless stat. It's better to just kill it now and find balancing healer mana bars twice as easy, and find healers not get to a point as quickly where spirit no longer feels desirable.

As a holy priest I still need spirit badly enough to only be able to use one item without spirit. Which means I had to pass over a *lot* of 391 items and keep my 378s cause they have spirit. Being that crippled if I take items without spirit is not really fun, especially when Blizz didn't provide enough spirit gear in hard modes. =(
Edited by Elliora on 11/13/2011 11:57 AM PST
100 Human Priest
11/13/2011 07:00 AMPosted by Lanra
Right with you on this. I loved BC and wrath healing, I hate this crap of cata healing, and if I have to put up with it for another xpac....yeah I'm done.

Same. Cata completely ruined something I loved for years. If I was better at DPS I'd consider that an option but I can only do high enough DPS for the type of guild I'm in, if it's a stationary fight (so like one or two bosses out of the whole expansion). I'm not going through this again, especially since the story and other features of MoP do not appeal to me at all.
90 Human Priest
Why does the healing community, as a whole, have to choose between so many secondary stats in the "new" philosophy of healing in 5.0. Why add spirit on top of everything else: Mastery, Crit, and Haste? I mean more on par? Since caster DPS only has to concentrate on thorough put and what ever is the #1 best stat for their class? Why do healers have to concentrate more on 3 to 4 stats while dps is 2 MAYBE 3?

I know 5.0 they want healers to make a "choice." 1) To hit harder and faster or 2) To hit softer, slower, but last a lot longer. On top of everything there will be 5 classes of healers to balance. Some will be better to hit harder and faster, while others will be better for softer, slower, and longer. Will the PVE encounters be balanced enough that certain healers aren't going to be "benched" because we aren't the "best" healer for the encounter? Will the balance be so bad that choice 1 is the best while choice 2 is the L2P set up and go for choice 1 newb?

I don't see how with the new set up in 5.0, how Blizz will be able to balance healer who have active mana regen compared to the secondary passive regen. As it looks now, the active regen classes/specs will be king while the passive will have a very hard time balancing spirit, int and what ever 2nd state they like.

Still trying to understand the changes in 5.0 for healers and what impact it means on all 5 healing classes and specs.
Edited by Thoridin on 11/13/2011 12:24 PM PST
14 Gnome Mage
11/13/2011 12:12 PMPosted by Thoridin
Why does the healing community, as a whole, have to choose between so many secondary stats in the "new" philosophy of healing in 5.0.
Uh, healers have fewer (or worst case, equal) secondary stats to choose from than every other spec since they don't have hit/expertise.
90 Gnome Priest
spirit has to be buffed if they make this change I think.
90 Human Priest
11/13/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Mouthwash
Uh, healers have fewer (or worst case, equal) secondary stats to choose from than every other spec since they don't have hit/expertise.

But hit is a natural stat that comes on most gear like spirit on cloth for healers. I know you have to gem/enchant to reach the base standard for raiding conent just like healers have to reach the base standard for mana regen (regardless if it is active or passive.)
90 Human Priest
hehe next page pls! being on top is better $
Edited by Liquidlife on 11/13/2011 12:32 PM PST
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