I don't get why the MoP int change is needed

11/13/2011 01:54 PMPosted by Aenwyn


Then you failed at reading.


nope, I'm pretty certain I did in fact read the post correctly.


mana not scaling with intellect translates to healers not scaling with gear... you fail at reading.
100 Night Elf Priest
16620
mana not scaling with intellect translates to healers not scaling with gear... you fail at reading.


What part of mana pools not changing do you not understand? You're trying really hard to troll, aren't you?

-1000/10
5 Human Warlock
0
Actually, all they're doing is going back to the regen model used in Vanilla for priests and druids. And mana was indeed a concern back then, which is why we used down ranking - which has simply been replaced by triage. Interesting how with all the fun enhancements made over the past several years we finally go back to the original design. What they can do now is simply eliminate int as a stat. It's not reforgeable anyway and by doing so they can decouple SP and crit, which gives them even more control over player capability. Now one thing I would really like to see is that our slow, crappy heal be changed into a fast, crappy heal. I think that would be a really nice QoL upgrade.
11/13/2011 02:20 PMPosted by Aenwyn
mana not scaling with intellect translates to healers not scaling with gear... you fail at reading.


What part of mana pools not changing do you not understand? You're trying really hard to troll, aren't you?

-1000/10


Show me where blizzard said mana pools won't change? All they said was INTELLECT was not going to change our mana pools.

Furthemore, mana pool is just ONE of many ways that healers will scale. You said they don't want healers to scale. They will still scale AT THE VERY LEAST with spellpower, crit, haste, mastery, and spirit.
90 Tauren Shaman
11215
RE: Reta

A long time ago when GC was actually responding to forums I made a similar angry rant about CH spam being "their fault" and how it wasn't fair to punish us for something they encouraged with their encounter design and gear design, well let's just say your post was a pretty big deja-vu.

GC actually responded to it, with what was basically an admission that yeah, it wasn't the player's fault for playing that way, but it was a mistake for it to have gotten that way in the first place and just because it wasn't the player's fault didn't mean they shouldn't fix it.

Take that how you will.

I still don't see the need for this change, Max Mana regen abilities need to be changed. Max Mana as a concept does not. I would be very sad to see my HP not go up as I geared my tank alts, I would be very sad to see my max mana not go up as I gear my healers. It matters. It's the only visible stat we have.
84 Draenei Paladin
1450
11/13/2011 01:13 PMPosted by Elliora
You'll scale. Just not as much as you currently do.


we already scaled too freaking little in this expac. leveling up to become worse IS NOT FUN. It wasn't fun in Cata, it won't be fun in MoP, and after Cata, many of us are NOT willing to go through that again.
I'm sure not. My shaman will be ele-enhance, this toon will be dungeon/raid ret and pvp/"dps" holy. The priest will still be shadow for dungeons/raids and disc for pvp/"dps", the druid will certainly never go back to resto (currently feral/feral). To hell with healers constantly being punished over the cries of people who've probably never healed.
100 Night Elf Priest
16620
Furthemore, mana pool is just ONE of many ways that healers will scale. You said they don't want healers to scale. They will still scale AT THE VERY LEAST with spellpower, crit, haste, mastery, and spirit.

No kidding...

Show me where blizzard said mana pools won't change? All they said was INTELLECT was not going to change our mana pools.

There is nothing else currently in game that will increase our mana pool outside of talents such as Furor in the feral tree (usually picked up by resto druids).

What will happen is that healers will start stacking even more spirit in order to increase our regen due to our smaller mana pools.

I wouldn't be concerned as much about the post except for the part that states:

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders.


Healing is finally, as we near the end of the expac, in a good place. Those early heroics were hell for (many/most) healers--not due to healers having to learn to use their most cost-effective spells, but due to the fact that healers could not carry a group in any sense of the word, meaning that dps and tanks had to execute their roles perfectly or near perfectly for the first month of the expansion or the group would wipe. This was fine for raiders who queued w/their guildmates for heroic runs (as I did w/my resto druid); but it also made pugging anything a nightmare or close to it unless you were extremely lucky. I don't want to have a repeat of that experience sometime soon.

Blizzard indicated that they want to address that problem, but then they turned around and said that raid healing right now is too easy, which it is not. It's not difficult per se (outside of heroic Rag), but it's not anything that should be given a nerf at around this time next expansion. I've done up to 25k hps on alts like this toon carrying groups in pug za/zgs and nearly as much hps in bad pug raids on my server; I like knowing that being a good healer means I can help a dps/tank recover from an error and that one mistake is no longer unrecoverable from (as was the case for most of last tier pre nerf).

I WANT to be able to make a difference in raids, and that my hard work gearing (along with increased mana pool) ensures that I will be given the chance to do so. Blizzard can end up doing a lot more things next expansion that could have a more pronounced effect on healing (including healing spell cost and spell cast times); I don't want to see base mana pools being yet another thing that Blizzard cannot seem to balance.
Edited by Aenwyn on 11/13/2011 2:56 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
12655
11/13/2011 02:23 PMPosted by Merise
Actually, all they're doing is going back to the regen model used in Vanilla for priests and druids. And mana was indeed a concern back then, which is why we used down ranking - which has simply been replaced by triage.
Yes, let's go back to the beloved vanilla regen model because cast-canceling to avoid wasting one of the 10-12 heals you could get off in a fight before going oom was *so* much fun and rewarding.

/sacrasm off

11/13/2011 02:23 PMPosted by Merise
Now one thing I would really like to see is that our slow, crappy heal be changed into a fast, crappy heal. I think that would be a really nice QoL upgrade.
This I very much agree with. I might actually cast Nourish, even though it does so little healing that you can't actually see players health bars go up, if it was .5 seconds instead of 3 freakin' seconds.
There is nothing else currently in game that won't increase our mana pool outside of talents such as Furor in the feral tree (usually picked up by resto druids).


We are talking about a new expansion here.

Blizzard indicated that they want to address that problem, but then they turned around and said that raiding right now is too easy, which it is not. It's not difficult per se (outside of heroic Rag), but it's not anything that should be given a nerf at around this time next expansion.


You are totally misreading what they are saying. Raiding (for some classes) is too easy in terms of mana consumption. Obviously it isn't too easy in general since they admitted that they made firelands too hard and went in with nerfs.

90 Orc Shaman
7325
Kaivax is spot on. And this change will be a good thing for everyone.
86 Orc Shaman
MHC
8740
this seams really, really, really stupid. why should geared healers be taxed for what they've earned and not be any better than a fresh off the block healer.. they heal more.. but they have the same mana pool... what happens when H rag hits the tank for 75k 3 times.. 3 big heals.. if you want to fix the problem.. separate intel and spell power again.. that seams the smartest way to do it. again. really, really, really stupid.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16010
The cata dungeons are not too difficult. When they came out no one had awesome gear to power through and we did it. I think they were challenging, but not too hard for any role. Many of my guildies feel the same. If anything the heroics should be easier with the dungeon finder, because you may be a barely geared healer and get grouped with a firelands geared tank. Good game :) I have never been happier on my resto shaman. I get mana back from dps'ing, they have every type of heal, and as long as the raid or party isn't taking unnecessary damage I have no problem balancing my mana. I've talked to healing druids and priests, they also have no problem with mana when everyone is doing the right thing. But, when things aren't going right mana still drops and rightly so. I wouldn't mind more interesting rotations for managing mana, but it doesn't make any sense to say older content is too hard now when you can buy gear tiers higher than what you would get from the heroic anyway.
84 Draenei Paladin
1450
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


So you want us to switch from Int stacking to Spirit stacking .. right gotcha.
If my heals are enough to heal a lvl 90 with 300k hp, sure. But at this rate, trying to juggle regen and power will be more trouble than I'm willing to worry about.
14 Gnome Mage
0
One problem that so far has gone unmentioned:

Mana pool scaling is a check against regen scaling being too powerful. You can only spend mana so fast, and clearly if regen ever reached that pace you would have infinite mana. Still, we want to be able to cast more/longer each tier, and one way to allow that without having regen run wild has been through max mana scaling in addition to regen. Instead of needing to get 20k more solely through regen, you could get 5k through regen and 15k through mana pool size.

Basically, regen does not scale linearly and this could mean we'll either see pitiful scaling or will run into serious OP problems.

2 Troll Rogue
0
The int change does not bother me in the slightest, but rather one that I'm looking forward to as this will mean that it'll probably be easier to balance the healers.

I also do not get the complaints about triage as healers have always had to choose who and when to heal someone, except that now I get to use my full healing arsenal and be effective rather than mindless spamming the quickest heal.
11/13/2011 03:48 PMPosted by Xeroval
The cata dungeons are not too difficult. When they came out no one had awesome gear to power through and we did it. I think they were challenging, but not too hard for any role. Many of my guildies feel the same.


Before the luck of the draw buff, before people got gear, before people really knew how the encounters worked, yea the dungeons and heroics were hard. But they should be hard when people don't know how to do encounters and don't have gear. Still, we were probably a bit too mana-starved.

People still greatly exaggerate the issue and whine about getting blamed in pugs, etc.
43 Night Elf Hunter
11020
11/13/2011 12:17 PMPosted by Zolvolt
spirit has to be buffed if they make this change I think.


Not only would it need to be buffed, it would have to be put back onto cloth drops. They almost eliminated cloth items with spirit on it in Cataclysm raids.

I need to repeat something that someone had said earlier which really stood out for me. The difference between a new level 85 toon with about 85k mana and a raid geared healer with about 120k gear is 40k of mana. When your standard healing spell costs about 8k mana we're talking about 5 additional casts worth of mana. Are 5 extra casts really that game breaking for Blizzard that they have to completely rebuild Intellect from scratch and force us to learn a new system again?
84 Draenei Paladin
1450

You are totally misreading what they are saying. Raiding (for some classes) is too easy in terms of mana consumption. Obviously it isn't too easy in general since they admitted that they made firelands too hard and went in with nerfs.
Then change those classes, not the entirety of healing.

What I'm having issues with is this; heals right now don't heal for a whole lot, (save a small handfull of spells) ESPECIALLY for the mana cost. What shaman uses Healing Surge, for example? Why does Flash of Light have ~the same cost as Divine Light while healing for so much less? With this in mind (weak heals), now we will factor in having no control over the size of our mana pool.

So how is this supposed to work? Will we stack spirit to make our mana pool feel larger? Intellect to make the heals stronger? Stack all Int/Spirit purple gems?

(The answer is; we won't know until MoP is in beta testing, but the dilemma is already surfacing and I've seen maybe, maybe 5% of the healers saying they don't care, or tha they are excited.)
Edited by Oximusprime on 11/13/2011 4:51 PM PST
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