I don't get why the MoP int change is needed

- World of Warcraft
85 Blood Elf Paladin
9730
Dear Blizzard,

I like the way healing is. Please leave it as is.

Love, Practical
90 Night Elf Druid
7340
11/13/2011 06:11 PMPosted by Worshaka
Lets just assume DPS scale better than healers, then the average health of a boss will scale at the same rate to provide a similar difficulty level. If healers scale worse then it just means the damage output of the bosses scales at the same rate.


PvPers aren't behind you on this.
1 Draenei Warrior
0
earlier in the thread i saw someone say that they could put + mana on items. wouldnt this also be against their item can be used by morethan one spec since +mana would be a healer only stat
100 Troll Shaman
14795
11/13/2011 07:34 PMPosted by Vagaz
earlier in the thread i saw someone say that they could put + mana on items. wouldnt this also be against their item can be used by morethan one spec since +mana would be a healer only stat

I don't know. That disclaimer aside, I personally think it'd create another mess in itself.

Also, we going to start another thread here in the healer forum since the change is mainly geared -- pardon the pun -- towards us? I haven't seen anything from Blizzard on how it's to affect the other mana users (prot/ret and enhance exempted), so I'd like to see some input from that quarter as well. Could perhaps create a separate thread for them, but then it might seem rather awkward to have multiple threads on the same topic. :|
Edited by Alayea on 11/13/2011 8:18 PM PST
11/13/2011 07:34 PMPosted by Vagaz
earlier in the thread i saw someone say that they could put + mana on items. wouldnt this also be against their item can be used by morethan one spec since +mana would be a healer only stat


not really. Gear has stamina on it, even though tanks are the only ones that really care much about it. Same thing with +mana. Healers might be the only ones that really care about +mana, but other casters would use it as well.
85 Tauren Priest
11575
11/13/2011 07:39 PMPosted by Alayea
earlier in the thread i saw someone say that they could put + mana on items. wouldnt this also be against their item can be used by morethan one spec since +mana would be a healer only stat

I don't know. That disclaimer aside, I personally think it'd create another mess in itself.

Also, we going to start another thread here in the healer forum since the change is mainly geared -- pardon the pun -- towards us? I haven't seen anything from Blizzard on how it's to affect the other mana users (prot/ret and enhance exempted), so I'd like to see some input from that quarter as well. Could perhaps create a separate thread for them, but then it might seem rather awkward to have multiple threads on the same topic. :|


IIRC they said they wanted to continue the mana management portion of Arcane Mages. I assume Warlocks will still be using Life Tap for mana as well (assuming they don't all suddenly go Destruction for Soul Leech).
85 Night Elf Druid
2840
The model they are advocating sounds a lot like GW to me. A static pool with regen boosts, while heals use a percentage/point base of mana.

Energy is a resource, and increasing regen effectively extends your mana pool. In any case you can heal (and do heal) frequently... but the faster regen creates more opportunities for expensive abilities to be useda bit more often with smaller expense abilities being filler.

Not my favorite model. GW was fun because of the customization of abilities via selection. This game offers no such customization. I would be worried healers would trend toward a rotation.... and it would just lead to fun abilities being used rarely with filler used more often... lessening the overall fun I have and making healers the same a large percentage of the time, except for the few cases where they blow energy/mana for large abilities that might vary slightly.

Honestly, I would rather play GW for free with that heal model.
1 Dwarf Shaman
0
at the rate they are killing wow, it will also be f2p soon
90 Orc Rogue
14095
don't change the way int affects mana pool.. how will i be able to spot a caster with bad gear or who doesn't have proper enchants/gems without their mana pool as a fast indicator?
Edited by Sleete on 11/13/2011 11:14 PM PST
85 Troll Mage
6660
They are not trying to kill wow they are just doing a Modern Warfare, makin the game easier for noobs so they play longer and keep their sub going. Soon ill beable to play wow with a joystick and 3 red buttons MY DREEEEAM
100 Night Elf Hunter
17835
I would beg to differ on the "Healing ideal" Cata healing was the worst healing I have ever seen, it was worse than Vanilla healing and I STARTED healing in Vanilla. I deleted all my healers in Cata sans my shaman who I only started healing on once I could cluster up enough spirit gear to not bore myself to tears with this whole "Management" belief, while it may be fun to some people I find it really boring. I fall asleep in dungeons now because there is no more challenge, I felt more of a threat in Wrath when a boss could 2 shot a tank if you weren't healing fast enough, it was easy to some people but it was more amusing than what we have now.
85 Blood Elf Priest
7845
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


Small, slow heals =/= fun. They don't even cost mana.
85 Night Elf Druid
6920
The problem really is a fundamental lack of trust, regarding player responsibility. Cata really didn't work well in this regard. What it ended up doing, the way damage was shaped, was to push responsibility away from everybody else and onto the healer.

In Wrath (current content) if people stood in bad they died. Right away. In Cata, they often might not die. But then 20 seconds later, an AoE pulse kills them. (WTF healer), or we use a lot of mana to get them back up to survive the pulse, then 2 minutes later we run out of mana (WTF healer)

Tanks who don't properly use their cooldowns will force healers to use more mana, eventually running them OoM (WTF healer). DPS who don't put out enough output will drag fights on too long, running healers OoM (WTF healer).

So, the way most players see this, is that we see one thing that's a symbol of our personal progression, our mana pool, being taken away from us because raids are scaling up too fast and making content trivial too fast, while playing a role that doesn't really have many good symbols of personal progression in the first place.

Int probably is overpowered as is. So you put all mana return abilities for healers based around Spirit. Fixed! That's all it takes. You just have to then make sure there's plenty of Spirit gear for healers to take, as we'll be stacking the stuff.

But if you want us to eat this, we need to be reassured that the encounter design and systems are going to work together in such a way as NOT to make pretty much everything look and feel like healer fail. We need to know, in advance, how tanks and DPS are going to be punished..directly and obviously.. for failure.



85 Orc Shaman
5985
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


Well the way you see it is wrong.

It doesn't feel worse for players trying to balance their characters. Moreso, the balance of the character will stay THE SAME for the players. Get enough spirit untill you feel confortable doing the content, then go all int, and if the socket bonus is not int then still go all int if you feel confortable with your regen.

And THAT'S FINE, because once your mana is fine for you to do the content, after that you want your heals to be more powerfull.

Players are not feeling that incerasing their skill doesn't increase their chance to win, where do you take this things?

I tell you one thing, when players feels their role is changing every single expansion and that Blizzard has no respect for them they leave. Ret Paladins feel that with a lot less changes than healers.

Wow, healers in full raid gear heal heroic dungeons easily, who would have guessed it, that's clearly wrong, how can a guys that overgears the content for more than 50 ilvl points easily accomplish their job? Raid geared Tanks and DPS have to work hard in heroic dungeons, amirite? ARE YOU KIDDING?

Do another overhaul of healing like the one you are proposing and i and many more WILL LEAVE. I dont think you get it, WE ARE TIRED OF BEING CHANGED EVERY SINGLE FREAKING EXPANSION. Let's see if you get it (for those that didnt get it, when i said our role was changed i dont mean our objective, i mean our execution, gearing aspects and what to focus to accomplish the objective of our role that is the only part that hasnt changed in this years).

Cata healing is fine, dont mess with it.

Also, we picked healers because of the role being dynamic. We dont want to heal the same way being a fresh 85 than a full geared raider. We like having more freedom the more gear we have. Take that out of us and you keep limiting our role more, what do you want us to have, a rotation? Why do you want that?

Stop disrespecting us.
Edited by Gromahk on 11/14/2011 4:05 AM PST
85 Orc Shaman
5985
11/11/2011 12:00 PMPosted by Judgesyou
Everyone is scalling and everyone is making the fight easier. Picking out healers is absurd.


The amount of regen a healer has, or the amount of total mana/SP they have is independent of the other roles. Saying dps scales too well is why healers are scaling so well is wrong.


DPS SCALES BETTER THAN US.

Its is relevant, because they are using healers sacaling too well as an excuse, even when other roles SCALE BETTER but dioesnt seem to be a problem.

The problem seems to be our scaling, which is worse than DPS scaling.

That's absurd.
90 Night Elf Priest
14340
Ugh..this thread started with so much promise. It was really thought provoking until a blue stepped in. Not that it's their fault, but it turned into a !@#$ storm of complaints since.
85 Tauren Priest
11575
Looks like someone set up a continuation thread here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3581199509
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