I don't get why the MoP int change is needed

85 Human Paladin
3805
11/11/2011 11:34 AMPosted by Gromahk
I gave you the example of dps caling even more than us because somehow a lto of people are worried about healers scaling too good but apparently no one realizes dps scales even better than us, and they wont be severely changed because of that.


Dps scaling has nothing to do with healers scaling too well.
85 Blood Elf Priest
2535
I gave you the example of dps caling even more than us because somehow a lto of people are worried about healers scaling too good but apparently no one realizes dps scales even better than us, and they wont be severely changed because of that.


Dps scaling has nothing to do with healers scaling too well.


Afterall Tank and dps have nothing to do with total damage and fight lenght right?

Everyone is scalling and everyone is making the fight easier. Picking out healers is absurd.
Edited by Hoylshadow on 11/11/2011 11:56 AM PST
85 Human Paladin
3805
11/11/2011 11:51 AMPosted by Hoylshadow
Everyone is scalling and everyone is making the fight easier. Picking out healers is absurd.


The amount of regen a healer has, or the amount of total mana/SP they have is independent of the other roles. Saying dps scales too well is why healers are scaling so well is wrong.
85 Blood Elf Priest
2535
Everyone is scalling and everyone is making the fight easier. Picking out healers is absurd.


The amount of regen a healer has, or the amount of total mana/SP they have is independent of the other roles. Saying dps scales too well is why healers are scaling so well is wrong.


Quick logic

Boss dies quicker > less time healing > less mana required > less regen needed > moar int

It is NOT irrelevant.

Fights beeing shorter is ABSOLUTELY relevant to our mana pools. Thats why bringing less healers and more dps is possible there is a direct correlation there.

Of course when everyone is overgearing nerfed content everything gets boiled down to "anything works" but better tank and dps makes healing significantly easier.
Edited by Hoylshadow on 11/11/2011 12:12 PM PST
85 Tauren Priest
11575
I gave you the example of dps caling even more than us because somehow a lto of people are worried about healers scaling too good but apparently no one realizes dps scales even better than us, and they wont be severely changed because of that.


Dps scaling has nothing to do with healers scaling too well.


It absolutely does. DPS scaling not only must be able to down bosses, but must also be able to possibly outpace healers in PvP. The way that healers, DPS and tanks scale in PvE actually all rely on each other to some degree.
Edited by Tomaj on 11/11/2011 12:18 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
7005
Gromahk, you keep on saying how blizz is changeing our (healers) role and how you wont stand for it. My question is, do you even know what a role is? And what our role is?
If blizz is changing our role, does that mean that healers are going to no longer heal?

Youve said those exact words on 3 threads now: blizz is changing our role.

But blizz isnt changing our role. So I have no clue what your talking about.
From everything youve said pretty much what I am getting is that you dont want healing to be any more challenging than it is right now and that you dont like change.

I know myself, and a lot of other healers, like change and want to be challenged. Healing has once again become too easy at end game level. This happens every expansion because of the gear scaling reasons listed above. And this change blizz has mentioned will moderate that scaling issue.

And why would you not want change? Do you never get bored with the way things are. Would you have liked the game to stay the same as it was in vanilla for ever?
A couple of times youve said how if it isnt broken, dont fix it.
Things can always be improved, and just because things may work now, doesnt mean they dont get boring and shouldnt change. I currently like the healing the way it is now also, I just wish it was more challenging. But I am still looking forward to change because it will be something new and refreshing.

And yes, dps scaling being too powerful is irrelevent to our discussion of healers scaling being too powerful because, imagin this, this thread is about healers not dps.
88 Orc Death Knight
5960
Madspriest if you think you need more challenge you can always try the heroic modes. Instead of basing your argument of "this is too easy" on a nerfed regular content.

Heck even heroic is nerfed right now.

Let's see your "game is not challenging" remarks when 4.3 hits and you have to heal that.

85 Blood Elf Priest
2535

And yes, dps scaling being too powerful is irrelevent to our discussion of healers scaling being too powerful because, imagin this, this thread is about healers not dps.


Yes lets ignore logic so your argument may have some pertinence.

If you are saying healers are too powerfull that must mean you are talking about boss fights right? Boss fights are easy because of several reasons.

Pick majordomo for example. Go with a group pulling average 15k dps. Than go with a group pulling 25k average.

i can see myself beeing balanced on the first group and pretty overpowered on the second.

Deny all you want the correlation is obvious. Everyone scalling makes EVERYONE overpowered. You ever heard of the term "carried"? Thats overgeared (or overscalled) people making up for other peoples gear.

it's everyones problem but somehow you think ONLY healers should pay the bill. As we did in the start of this expansion.

I don't want to see that again, thank you.
Edited by Hoylshadow on 11/11/2011 12:55 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
7005
Madspriest if you think you need more challenge you can always try the heroic modes. Instead of basing your argument of "this is too easy" on a nerfed regular content.

Heck even heroic is nerfed right now.

Let's see your "game is not challenging" remarks when 4.3 hits and you have to heal that.


I would love to get into heroics, but unfortunatly my guild just cant do it.
But my point is that at the gear lvl for the content, we (healers) are OP because our gear scales too powerfully.

I am geared from reg FL, so I should be still being challenged by reg FL, and able to get into heroic but have that be very challenging.
Instead, the way it is now, I was able to come into reg FL with IL 358 and do just fine and not feel really challenged, and now at lvl 377 it is really easy.

And Holyshadow:
you still have no point. The point of this thread is about HEALERS gear scaling and the potential changes in MoP. Not how dps' gear scales even worse than ours.
Gromahk keeps bringing up how dps' gear scales even more powerfully than healers. So the !@#$ what.
Basically he is saying that just because dps gear scales worse that healer gear shouldnt be nerfed. How does that make sense. Healing gear scales OP, so irregardless of how dps gear scales, healing gear needs a nerf, that is my point.

I can heal Domo easily with a group of average dps of 15k. Yes it becomes even easier if the groups dps is 25k, but Im still OP and the content is still easy no matter what the dps is. (ok, if the dps really sucks, then yest this becomes harder)
But my point is that this thread is about HEALERS, not dps. So for Gromahk keep using the scaling of dps gear as an excuse to not nerf healers is just dumb.

This thread is not about dps, dps gear, dps scaling, dps being stupid and sitting on their thumb in the fire, its is about healers.
Edited by Madspriest on 11/11/2011 1:56 PM PST
90 Human Priest
16170
I know myself, and a lot of other healers, like change and want to be challenged. Healing has once again become too easy at end game level.


This is working as intended in the content you are participating in. Nerfed normal modes are meant to be easy for tanks, dps, AND healers. They were purposely made very easy overall because Blizzard felt not enough people were able to kill normal modes. For whatever reason you are not participating in the harder content. But you waaaaay overgear the nerfed normal content you are clearing. Of course it's easy!

I am geared from reg FL, so I should be still being challenged by reg FL, and able to get into heroic but have that be very challenging.


That's incorrect. If you have all gear from the bosses you are killing you now overgear it and are geared for the next level of content whether that's hard mode Firelands or normal Dragon Soul. It's no longer progression, you have your gear from there, it's not meant to be challenging any longer.

You also seem to not understand that DPS getting higher makes a healer's job way easier because the fight lasts a shorter time. So you don't have to heal for as long and can afford to use more of your expensive heals since the fight is so much shorter.

11/11/2011 03:36 AMPosted by Kaels
I was excited about MoP. Genuinely excited. I loved the new talent trees. I loved that they were thinking "outside the box" and was hoping that they'd be going a different direction with healing as well. But this announcement, to me, is saying "you're getting more of the same, but worse." How many more scaling nerfs are they going to shove down our throats? I'm getting fed up.


Well I was the opposite. Not excited for MoP at all. The theme and announced features do not appeal to me. But, I was still hoping that healing would be fun again, that would be enough to make me keep playing. Instead it sounds like it's just going to get worse. Why can't healers feel strong and powerful too? It's kind of depressing to know I'll probably be quitting after all this time but honestly I only put up with Cata healing because I'd really like to kill Deathwing. I have no such motivation for MoP, especially if they further weaken healers.
90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
11/11/2011 01:55 PMPosted by Madspriest
But my point is that at the gear lvl for the content, we (healers) are OP because our gear scales too powerfully.

You are not AT the gear level for the content. You are OVERGEARED for the content. If you needed FL gear to down normal FL, then nobody would ever down normal FL and get FL gear. See how that works?

Pre-nerf normal FL was tuned for item level 353-359. As in, you were supposed to be able to go in there, before every f'ing thing was nerfed by twenty f'ing percent, and have a fair chance of downing it with an entire raid in ilvl 353 gear out of the Zuls plus whatever 378s you picked up along the way. That was the intent. It may have been slightly overtuned, or the mechanics might have been slightly too hard, for most people to actually accomplish that - but it was numerically doable and I'm sure Paragon could have done it with ease.

And you're somehow shocked - shocked! - that when you and all of your DPS have gear 25 item levels higher than what the content was tuned for, when you're at the gear level for the next tier of content, and every mechanic and boss health pool in the raid has been nerfed by 20%, for an overall effective nerf of substantially more than 20%, that you're having an easy time and can heal through certain forms of stupid.

This is your problem? Seriously?
Community Manager
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.
90 Undead Priest
8345
11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


That seems a bit problematic for resto druids... they tend to have more overhealing done than other specs since they have such a large reliance on HoTs... unless they're getting some sort of mechanic to get a bit of mana back for each HoT on the target when they hit full health.

I mean, I don't know how you guys are doing this, but the meters always show druids having more overhealing than other specs, it seems. Just my observation.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


How will this affect Spell DPS? Especially Arcane Mage? Because I think it'll hurt pretty bad.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/11/2011 6:43 PM PST
85 Tauren Priest
11575
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.


From a player's standpoint, mana management affects different specs to varying degrees, and at extreme ends (say, resto druids vs. resto shaman). Given your statement here, however, I have to wonder; is this going to see future raid encounters in MoP seeing more "triage" style healing as was so touted at the beginning of this expansion? The encounters of today see so much AoE damage to sigh a high degree that you cannot keep people in a "wounded" state for any length of time - it needs to be healed up immediately, and people still need to stay topped off. Intellect not affecting mana pool (directly or indirectly) will lend to this a little bit, but only if the encounter design supports the idea.
86 Troll Priest
11670
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.




You're missing a key problem with your idea.



Are dps scaled so they have to work in heroics if they do them fully epiced out? Do tanks? No? So you want to make sure that healers are the only role in the game that they have to have 100% attention in all facets of the game they play in? How does that seem like both a smart idea, and a way to keep the healers you have going?



This expansion has already felt a little "meh" to me in that my heals aren't exactly hitting harder at 85 as they were at 80, which was also a balancing decision. An unsatisfying one, but you still made it. Int gives you bigger heals? Since when? The buff that they've given heals has been so historically miniscule from tier to tier that they might as well not at all. Is this something that's going to be addressed in the expansion? If my tank has a +20k health pool from tier to tier, will my greater heal hit for +5k more at least from tier to tier? Cause right now, that's simply not how the game is working.



I understand the panic you guys are expressing about how out of control item levels have gotten, and in accordance with this stats themselves, but simmer down folks. Healing is already a low % of the player population(not as bad as tanks, but still). It can be a thankless job.



I don't do heroics right now for two reasons:


1) Way too easy/boring with gear.

2) They provide NOTHING for me.



This change will fix problem 1, so good job with that. Problem 2 they won't do a thing for me. You know the only times I've actually queued as a healer this expansion since I'm always valor capped as a raider? When the little dungeon finder lfg popped up, cause hey, I get a little something extra for bothering. Until you do that, you making things less mindless for us isn't going to encourage us.


Right now, the only significant character growth any healer can see is our mana pool. You're removing that in the next expansion. Ok, fine, what is the point of our gear then? Regen is an important thing, but it's not noticeable unless we're spending mana. We'll have no real visible character growth, which kind of stinks.
85 Orc Hunter
4660
At least the good resto shaman are ready for the change, since resto shaman are the only healing spec who has make healing choices in regards to mana.
85 Dwarf Warrior
5700
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.


Sounds as though 3 stats are needed. Spirit, which increases regen. Int which increases how much you heal / damage for, and SpellPowerManaPool which increases how much mana you have. Or... maybe switch those last two? Maybe backup 2 expansions and separate +heal and +damage on gear again?

Either way, it's moot. Either an appropriately geared character has the mana & tools to heal or they don't. If it's the latter then the game is broken. If gaining in gear and power doesn't make things feel easier, then there's something wrong.

I do mourn having real (and possibly wrong) choices in this game. Feeling good about a talent build was largely because there were a lot of bad ones possible. Feeling good about gear choices because there were other choices which would have been wrong.
70 Night Elf Rogue
2065
11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted


Really? I see nothing at all of the goals that were outright stated as the mana change purpose. I've never seen a restoration druid use Nourish, priests don't use heal at all. Paladins can spam just about anything they want with no regard for mana (nerf incoming). Mana cooldowns being rotated essentially removes the need for sustaining mana at any level above 346.

Heroic damage is (was) so high that if you aren't spamming heals your players die instantly. Mana is not an issue. Everything is about throughput. I thought these were the reasons stated for changing the way healing worked and the direct reasons for scaling health up to 200,000 for tanks.

But you accomplished exactly what you wanted? It seems something is wrong with this statement, based on previous reasoning and announcements. If gear scaling (in the game that you designed) completely nullifies the entire purpose of the Expansion's changes, don't you think that means it didn't work out the way you wanted?
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]