I don't get why the MoP int change is needed

100 Blood Elf Paladin
17650
11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


In other words you're wanting healers to go back to the model that failed horribly where all we're doing is casting once people take damage and not premptively be casting heals when dmg could be taken any time be it a large amount or even a small amount?

People tend to die alot with the only casting when people take dmg model is in place due to random dmg spikes or tank evasion rng, if i cast a heal it could be all for overhealing or it could be all pure hps because a hit was taken that brought someones health down thats whats needed when you have so much rng in place that you can't have a reactive healing model.

Take the rng of tanks/boss hits out the game gets really boring for healers as they sit there for half the fight waiting to heal someone when the health bar drops, leave the rng in and if you aren't proactively healing people die and it adds to the whole healing job by giving healers something to do instead of being pretty much a support class that could possibly be doing poor dps while they wait for someone to get hit before they cast any kind of heal.

the game may not be fun for healers when they have infinite mana either but it just seems like no thought it being put into it with constantly nerfing healer mana regen/spell costs/mana when i thought the whole point of the cata changes were to make everyone have to watch their resources when as it is now caster dps have infinite mana, melee/hunter dps have little resource issues and yet healers are taking the hit by being the only ones that need to focus on resources when the model was supposedly everyone had to.
85 Draenei Shaman
10485
11/11/2011 06:52 PMPosted by Gardar
At least the good resto shaman are ready for the change, since resto shaman are the only healing spec who has make healing choices in regards to mana.


With TC you don't have to worry about mana at all as a shaman.

even without it you can waste a ton of mana.

My problem with the idea is that there will still be a problem if they give us regen increases. Limiting my pool of mana really only does something if I can't regen it. lets say now that I can cast 12 heals before going oom with zero regen, if they stick me with a 30k mana pool, I'd assume I'd still have to be able to cast 10-12 heals before going oom, all they've done is scaled the numbers back and instead of having multiple sources of regen (from both % of max mana returns and from passive spirit mechanics) we'll only have one... it will still have to be approximately the same rate, or healers will have to sit around watching the monks do all the healing while also contributing dps.

So basically, it'll end up being change for changes sake while possibly making it easier to balance as they can make all spirit scaling completely linear... but they could do that anyway without nerfing mana pools, just remove any % of max mana returns.

It just doesn't make sense at all.
89 Human Priest
7625
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.

Perhaps a possible solution is to create a new secondary stat, similar to expertise, that increases mana pools. Currently casters have 4 secondary stats, whereas melee have 5, causing there to be a larger amount of number tweaking in melee. The way I see it is that it could offer more meaningful choice in healers. For example a healer could focus more on intellect and spirit, being able to focus on casting relatively powerful cheap heals without running out of mana, and as such would be most suited for tank healing. Or someone could focus on spirit and the mana stat and be able to put out a cheap, weak spells on the entire raid (think Discipline raid healing during ICC). Or one can even go for the burst healer, which focuses more on intellect and mana stat so they can put out massively powerful and expensive heals when needed. And that to me seems like a very rewarding and fairly easy to balance paradigm.

In order for it to work caster DPS would need to convert to 8% hit, or the balance will shift quite heavily.
5 Human Warlock
0
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


Too easy for raiders? Is that why you had to nerf FL raid encounters so much? And healing H Rag is not exactly trivial even when healers are near BiS geared.

Massive OH is not caused so much by healers having infinite mana as it is by the damage model and healing mechanics. What you are asking raid healers to do is, for example, to be able to choose who to heal so as to avoid OH caused by multiple healers healing the same player. This could be done by assigning specific individuals to each healer I suppose but then what, are we going back to the group based healing paradigm? I thought GC wanted to get away from that but it would definitely weed out the weaker healers if that is your intent. Can't keep your group up? Benched.

Are there going to be significant improvements in information available to healers via UI upgrades in order to facilitate this more selective healing model? I mean what you are demanding is that healers now be expected to not only cover normal damage and mistakes but also have complete awareness of who's healing whom and of course be subjected to the normal move when the flame is coming requirement, which incidentally is more of a burden on healers given that we have to stare at 10 or 25 squares for the entire fight. What QoL improvements are being given to healers in order to support this exceedingly tedious new requirement?
85 Draenei Shaman
10680
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


Will max mana returns still exist? I feel that was a major concern in the balance of healing itself.
Edited by Sensations on 11/11/2011 7:23 PM PST
90 Worgen Mage
13875
If this happens it also has implications for dps. I know if i had the mana pool i had doing lvl 85 dungeons on a 15 minute heroic rag fight, my dps would be much lower in arcane and would have drastic implications for damage scaling throughout the expansion. If my damage is higher with the higher percentage of mana i have and each AB is costing the same percentage throughout the expansion, then I won't be gaining the damage increase through scaling gear that normally would be applied : IE shorter burn phases, and more 3 ab am or 4 ab am rotations then 5 or 6 ab am, which greatly reduces my damage done. Even as fire i remember mana being an issues at several points for the 2-3 months it was king. So when we start the expansion with 5 minute fights and expand to 15 minute fights by the end, your not only shortchanging healers, but very possibly shortchanging your dps too. Either way I think doing this is going to either greatly limit the parameters possible to create boss fights. Imagine doing H Rag with only 86k mana loooolz. Now imagine how H Rag would have to be designed to be doable with only 86k mana. And this is the same mana that heroic grim batol is intended to be completed with. It just seems to me like your making your job harder. I don't think many people care if by the time they see raids they are blowing through dungeons, because honestly how many top end raiders are doing dungeons on their mains? I havent touched one on my Mage in ages.
14 Gnome Mage
0
11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders.
How is this a fair statement to make at all? It is true for tanks (especially) and dps as well, and is intentional.

Tanks starting out dungeons need to be very careful: carefully geared, careful use of cooldowns, and starting tank/dps groups will have to carefully coordinate each pull with crowd control, interrupts, and burning priority targets to limit incoming damage, as well as avoiding the avoidable things.

Tanks get better geared--even just from heroic drops--and they can now ignore all of that, as can dps. And believe me, they do. Flamecasters are probably the only thing that gets regularly crowd controlled.

Raid-geared tanks and healers have easier times in dungeons, exactly as you're describing healers. The experiences are night and day.

This post seems to confirm exactly what most of us feared: you think healers scaled too much, and want to make sure they scale less, so that the difference between freshly leveled and fully raid geared is less apparent. Well, between potentially an Item Squish, the lack of mana/int scaling intentionally designed to slow down healer scaling, and some content scaling your stats back to match specific item level, I think you're going to create serious problems with players feeling like they're not character progressing (even when they are).
1 Tauren Druid
0
When you make a class less gear-dependent getting upgrades isn't as fun, scale factors are lower which means relative to other players you don't see your player getting stronger over time, in fact it can seem that you are getting weaker over time since *relative to everyone else* you actually are weaker. This should be particularly noticeable in PvP, where healer vs. DPS balance is important otherwise you run the risk of making healing in PvP not viable.

I don't see any problem with int as it is now, the only problem with current mechanics are int-based talents that scale too well. Those could just as easily be addressed and balanced without changing the base mechanics of int.

85 Goblin Priest
3420
Quite excited for the changes! Thank you Kaivax. =]

Perhaps this will bring healers down to the same level. It seemed quite unfair that some specs got to reforge out of almost all of their mana regen to gain thoroughput and still have plenty of mana left over. As Disc, I could go into a raid fight with sub 1400 spirit and do extremely well because I'd have 150k mana (and getting large amounts back with shadowfiend, hymn of hope, power torrent and rapture) as disc versus my 135k as holy who's best regen came from a stat that I couldn't really afford to reforge too much out of to gain the same haste/mastery that I could get as disc.
14 Gnome Mage
0
I wonder how many players would agree that fully raid geared healers have a "too easy" job in dungeons today. Dungeons are three full tiers below my item level, and I don't think the run should be any harder than it is for me. I can't afk through it, but it shouldn't exactly be a challenge at this point.

Really a mind boggling stance to take, I feel.

Another problem: if pvp gear still has resilience (I know we're getting it as a baseline stat), that often means sacrificing a large percentage of possible spirit, and pvp healers will be very short lived.
Edited by Mouthwash on 11/11/2011 7:37 PM PST
100 Orc Rogue
15810
11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts.


I don't get it, why not just make all heal spells unsustainably expensive, then get mana refunded to them for all actual healing, but not overhealing? I know you'd probably have to tweak some numbers for different classes and/or spells, but wouldn't that model allow you to get closer to this goal you have for healers?
100 Human Priest
19865
11/11/2011 07:27 PMPosted by Mouthwash
Well, between potentially an Item Squish, the lack of mana/int scaling intentionally designed to slow down healer scaling, and some content scaling your stats back to match specific item level, I think you're going to create serious problems with players feeling like they're not character progressing (even when they are).


This. Cata felt like severe regression and even after a year I still feel extremely weak, my heals went up a bit but health scaled just as much. So I can cast more since my regen went up but the heals I cast still feel very weak. This was just not a fun expac for me to heal and I mainly stayed to finish out the story since I suck at dpsing while moving (i gave it a try on heroic Rag it was not pretty lol, I can do Baleroc fine though).

Honestly I see no reason to buy MoP. I so hoped for a change in the healing model to make me excited about WoW again but this will not be it. I think the changes in spell costs/regen were fine in Cata the heal size nerf was way, way too big and this was not fun for me. MoP does not have a story that interests me due to Alliance/Horde focus and lack of a main villain and now it looks like healers are once again being made weaker. No thanks. After Blizz lost almost 2m customers during the first year of Cata I do not understand how they can once again justify severely nerfing healer scaling/improvement.
85 Tauren Druid
7665
Using Bashiok's overall premise as a guide and known mechanics in the game as it is, I'd probably suggest a system similar to this:

Intellect: Increases the power (healing) done of a heal. Pretty straight forward. The more Int you have, the more powerful that heal is. Which also means once you get enough Int, you can start using what are normally smaller, cheaper heals because they'll be more efficient. More thoughts on this in a moment.

Spirit: The regen stat. However, in my opinion, it should be somewhat like how Mastery is in the current game. Every healer has a "base" Regen value for being in the Heal spec; let's say 1% of their mana pool over 5 seconds for example's sake, and then like Mastery, more points of Spirit would increase that. One major benefit of this type of system, is that everyone, regardless of their Mana Pool itself, will know that they will get at least a certain percentage of mana back. I think the important thing here though is to have diminishing returns. If every healer knows that by the end of a tier they'll have 20% manage regen without even needing to think about it, that is an issue. If healers can get say 7-8% regen , but then if they want more it starts taking real and purposeful choices to get to a higher value.

Secondary stats: Mostly fine as are. Mastery may need some tweaking, but proper balance and making it worthwhile shouldn't be that hard.

Intellect Part 2: A concern of healers is the feeling or in truth lack of feeling of being more powerful as they get new and better gear. So why not have Int have the effect of slightly lowering mana costs. It basically would give it the same effect as today, though more manageable on your end. That being said, a healer that stacks Int may be able to push out a few powerful spells at a relatively cheap cost; but since they neglected Regen in order to do that; they'll still go OOM - so Int as an end-all/be-all won't work. Whereas, someone that stacks Spirit, may be able to cast ad nauseum, but their heals are going to be lackluster and won't be able to do the job all the time. So finding the balance matters.

It also makes a distinction for PvP healers vs PvE healers. PvP healers want to be heal quickly and powerfuly right then; PvE need to be able to manage many people over a long duration. So PvPers will focus more toward Int, while PvErs will focus more toward Regen (ideally).

Which brings me to my last point:

Healer focused gear:

Healing gear should NOT have both Int and Spirit on it. Weapons and Off Hands are fine if they have both because of their nature; but it really should be a CHOICE when it comes to your other pieces. Or, if you must have both; then it should be High Int/Low Spirit, or Low Int/High Spirit. It really should be throughput or regen ability. That makes for those "interesting choices" you're always clamoring for. :)
Edited by Matthian on 11/11/2011 7:50 PM PST
85 Draenei Death Knight
3780
Intellect does way too much. Why not just limit the bonuses that you get from intellect and reduce how much mana it gives per point. Honestly, you could give intellect diminishing returns that are applied every 1/2 or 1 new tier of content. They would still gain the healing throughput from +spell power. They would still gain a bit more mana allowing them more breathing room in taxing situations. However, it wouldn't get out of control. By lowering how much benefit you get from intellect, you indirectly increase the value of other stats at different thresholds.

It seems foolish for nothing to ever increase your mana pool. If you look at encounters from every WoW expansion, you couldn't heal the fights without having increased mana pools. If you think about it, this is why people deranked spells. They didn't have the mana pool to support casting their max rank heals, so they found a more mana efficient way to do it, even if they had to cast more. Single target healing takes far less mana than raid healing. Without the larger mana pools, constantly having to cast aoe healing spells, which will still comparitively cost a decent chunk of mana, will never be sustinable unless you completely buff mana regen to a far higher rate than it is currently. You'll also have to lower the cost of all aoe, and big heal, spells to be sustinable. You can't have spells costing the same percentage of base mana with lower mana pools that could already drain your mana at higher levels with continued use in REQUIRED aoe situations.

It looks like we are going to be in for another expansion where healers have to completely relearn how to gear/heal again to be successful. It was sad how many people thought they were underepowered, could not heal, and that healing was completely broken, at the stat of cataclsym because of all the healing changes. Now, even if you are a very mana efficient healer, you'll have to figure out how to be even more efficient with a smaller mana pool.
85 Night Elf Druid
10895
After reading the posts in this thread thoroughly, I think I have some grasp of what might be the underlying issue.

I don't think Intellect increasing the mana pool is that issue.

As other people have said before, not only does the boost to the mana pool give a clear and easily measured number to gauge character progression and power (making the players feel good about the drops they acquire: always a plus), but it gives more flexibility to relax in easier content, not in top-tier content.

Just as an example, when I started healing in Cata 5-mans, casting a Regrowth outside of Omen of Clarity procs was a huge decision. I could save that person, but it ate up a significant chunk of mana in the process; therein lies the drawback. I know this was the intent for the Cata triage healing model and I love it. However, the blue post above implies that this mode of thinking disappears from raiding content with the larger mana pools, which I don't think is an accurate statement. Bad spell choice still leads to ruinous consequences for healers and their groups.

A better case could be made though, that the stats have disproportionately unbalanced values to healers. As many have stated previously in the thread, Intellect is a "super-stat", by increasing spell power, size of the mana pool, and mana regen. But which one of those is really the culprit of healers getting away with bad spell choice?

I would argue that Mana Regen is by FAR the biggest contributor, and for several reasons.

The first and foremost is Replenishment, which no one has talked about yet directly. This major source of mana influx scales off the max mana pool, and contributes easily twice as much mana to the healer as the MP5 buff from Mana Spring/Blessing of Wisdom. Over the course of a raid night, this could end up being responsible for 30% of the mana regeneration! By having this buff in the game, it dramatically augments the incentive to maximize Intellect stacking without a drawback.

Secondly, while Mana Pool is a finite value, Mana Regen increases in value as the fight gets longer. Just use the recent Arena matches at Blizzcon as an example: The matches had to include a contrived healing debuff at the 15 minute mark because healers couldn't go out of mana when properly managing spell choices and cooldowns. At some point, even well-played healers should run out gas. Some of you might be thinking, "it could be throughput is too high as well; look at the MS buff coming in 4.3!" That may be a factor in the PvP-side of the equation, but if that were the case, shouldn't raw healing be debuffed across the board instead to affect PvE as well?

If you're looking to make Intellect have a smaller effect on the mana available, hit the right source- remove Replenishment from the game. If that's not enough, you can reduce the amount that Intellect contributes to the regeneration formula. After those choices are made, other stats such as Spirit and even Crit (see: Resto Shaman design) become much more competitive for a balanced healing model.
Edited by Dalmascan on 11/11/2011 8:05 PM PST
85 Draenei Shaman
11965
Title says it all. Warning, long read ahead.
It's a true point, and it would be valid too if mobs and players NEVER SCALED IN HEALTH AND DAMAGE.

I mean, sure, the freshly 85 healer in Cata might not be able to heal very much, but that's why she starts with the normal heroics, then moves on... I have no doubt that the fully epiced out 378/391 healer with the 150k mana bar is having just as tough a time healing H Rag as the 333 healer making her way through Grim Batol.


The problem is just that... You progress and the job gets that much easier. A healer at 378 has 3 advantages over a fresh 85 healer. 1) Mana Pool, 2) Healing Power and 3) Mana Regen. The problem is, as you gear up and all 3 of these numbers go up, they effect each other in unintended ways. When a statistic effects multiple aspects of a class it makes for a difficult time balancing.

11/10/2011 04:19 PMPosted by Aevera
I really think this "infinite mana" problem, if it is indeed a problem, is more of a balancing problem than a mechanic problem. If healers have infinite mana, it's because encounters aren't challenging enough to tax healer mana. The solution, then, is to go tweak the encounter, not change the functioning of a stat that's worked that way since vanilla.


Incorrect, when healers feel they have infinite mana its not simply because the encounter design is lacking. They are up against the point where due to the nature of the current healing design that it has become the norm for the geared and skilled groups to actually underheal encounters. In the past, encounter design was so random from encounter to encounter you had to bring certain roles in larger or smaller numbers in order to survive. Think back to Black Temple and Serpentshrine, where you often needed 3 tanks for trash and then anywhere from 1 to 4 for bosses. Think about the first time you killed Illidari Council, how many healers did you have? How many did you use for MotherS and Illidan in comparison?

This change allows Blizzard to put more hard and steady role requirements across the board. If everyone is stuck with "base mana", then it is easier to design encounters that stress a certain number of healers without creating more and more opportunities for groups to sit healers in favor of dps.

I will say, this problem can be partially fixed with mechanics, but not in any real way. You speak of "a stat that has worked fine since Vanilla." Well the problem is, this is not the same stat from back then. It was modified with 4.0 to work 2 separate functions for casters, and quite frankly it was an experiment that both succeeded and failed. By combining Spell Power and Mana Pool into a single stat it created huge mechanical issues that can not easily be solved. Where the +spell power stat needed to become a "base" stat, it would have been better off if it had been simply changed into a new base stat such as Wisdom.

11/10/2011 04:19 PMPosted by Aevera
It really is just a pointless and time-comsuming change, and I say reverse it Blizz. Don't let it go live.


It is not pointless. It may be be a time consuming change, but it has a very specific point. To keep healing mechanics to be what they need to be. To force guilds into not sitting that 4th and 5th healer for a 19th and 20th dps. When healer mana matters, the game improves and is much more about strategy and player performance, rather than brute forcing fights. Because you can not honestly tell me that Blizzard ever consciously intended for 25mHRag to be 3healed. If they did, that designer serious needs to be fired.
85 Night Elf Druid
10895
Also forgot to mention the problem with the solution some players have suggested of adding another secondary stat to increase the mana pool.

The clever threorycrafting community will always figure out whether that stat or mana regen will allow you to cast more spells in a given period of time with some simple assumptions. That recommendation might not be correct 100% of the time, but it would still relegate the stat to reforge-land (see: Resto Druids/Unholy DKs and Critical Strike).

If anything another secondary stat simply adds to the problem by diluting the item budget and taking away value from the currently existing stats.
85 Tauren Priest
9580
Title says it all. Warning, long read ahead.

*rest omitted due to long to post*

It really is just a pointless and time-comsuming change, and I say reverse it Blizz. Don't let it go live.


Well your main argument is "if it isn't broke don't fix it" but as a species and as a game I think it is better to go ahead and make a new model that fits players and the game better. I would rather improve something that works perfectly fine than leave it as is just because it is acceptably functioning(if technology worked on that logic we would not have HD and now 3D TVs, and holograms, virtual reality devices etc). Currently as a Disiciplne priest I have no problem not having a single point of spirit on my gear in one of my alternate specs, with a large enough mana pool(as well high enough spell power as I sit at over 12K spell power raid buffed (without warlocks)) you can simply rely on A/A and your own Cooldowns, Resto Druids and Holy Paladins can work on a similar model with no mana issues(and should we ever fall to 0 mana it takes about 6.74 secs(less with more haste/during lustwarpism) to reach 40-60% total mana pool). GRANTED this is a fun really unique way to approach healing but the reward is quite nice(100K+ crit heals etc) vs heroic content and the like....Ultimately this is a poor model the fact I can do this by abusing profession bonuses and procs to greatly out heal other healers with little effort WHILE doing a amicable 10K+ dps and healing simultaniously is grossly overpowered....the situation was similar in full blues as well(but healing for greatly less) mana wise.... This is bad, because since over healing for me and certain other specific types of specs generates shields/hots/etc making healing issues a non issue(this will never compensate for tanks that can't hold threat/get their targets or dps that don't know how to use their defensive cds, mind you.). While by no means does it mean we can carry a raid(though can solo heal many heroic bosses)or group it makes....the enjoyment of healing vastly less, infinte mana was also extremely boring at 80 as well, it just isn't possible to go oom once geared enough in the current model, so I look forward to this change though it means I will have to completely change my chosen healing style. But with the overhaul to talents and abilities in 5.0 I have to re-learn how to play so it is a very exciting proposition.

AND FOR THE RECORDED the 391 healer has JUST AS MUCH TROUBLE with Grim Batol as the fresh 85 healer, if not possibly more due to over confidence(with over confidence comes a marked decrease in skill...quite rapidly).

EDIT: I personally would like to see the healer model move away from the mana bar completely, a rapidly replenishing(based on specific stats) energy like bar would work much better perhaps even with a combo point system. I personally would like to see more instant but long cool down heals for more "movement" game play(in the 2-5 min range), the cast time bubble for disc being a welcome design change coming in mists(hopefully), A certain other War based game used this energy/combo model to fantastic effect and it was easy to stay balanced with it(with your heavy healing spells consuming the most energy to cast and casting it too many times but healing the group/individual for most if not all of their health(fast to cast as well), and your weaker or more subjective heals consuming less(to a point where you could toss out quite a few quickly while allowing the energy model to regen), this is the kind of system I am hoping for with the monk which is why I am so excited for Blizzard to decide on some concrete changes! Easily the mana bar could also work on this(it being a very "small amount" but regening MUCH quicker with spirit, limiting you on the number of spells you can cast per say 30 secs/15sec/5 secs)
Edited by Busterbeam on 11/11/2011 8:07 PM PST
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