I don't get why the MoP int change is needed

90 Tauren Shaman
11215
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Max mana regen mechanics are BAD and have to go. They scale entirely too well. INT should NOT be a regen stat, it never should have been. Make spirit the only regen stat. That's how it should have been to begin with.

Max mana increases in general are perfectly fine, and good, and need to stay just as they are. My Healing Wave does not scale tier to tier with boss damage. I have to use GHW more in Firelands than I did in BWD, because bosses hit harder.

You cannot use "small heals when small damage is taken" when none of the raid encounters use small damage. Small damage in raids is generally AOE damage, which is healed with AOE heals, not small heals.

The three heal model was a spectacular failure, none of the classes uses their three heals in the manner that was described. Clinging to it now just sets us up for an even worse starting experience in MOP than we had in Cata.
Edited by Mistiya on 11/11/2011 8:02 PM PST
90 Human Paladin
13195
To be honest, Kaivax, and with all due respect, I think you guys are getting two things mixed up here. In my experience in my own healing and with the viewpoints of hardcore and casual healers alike, the experience doesn't get boring until you've completed content and geared up, not when the "healing becomes too easy." Even with large mana pools and amazing regen, healers as of 4.2 can still very well oom if they aren't healing correctly and/or doing heroic mode raids. The "skill" in healing comes from knowing when damage is coming and reacting to those situations immediately and appropriately. There isn't, in my opinion, skill in being knowledgeable of "this ability is less mana efficient than this ability." Every averge joe player can tell right off the bat that spamming Divine Light is going to oom you quicker than holy light.

What IS fun, is the feeling of getting more and more powerful and being able to run oom less quickly while being able to dish out more throughput. With this supposed new 5.0 change, I will have to choose between having a larger mana pool and larger throughput, and having higher regen, which I should never really have to make. That is a poor design that really shopuld be re-examined before you put it in the game. Constructively, I can tell you that, at least for myself, this is going to make me feel nerfed, and as it happens, you are most likely going to do the item squish as well. So you're going to make me feel nerfed twice over and expect me to just be okay with that and say "Well it's in the spirit of healing!" If that's the case, and I feel healing is just going down a road it shouldn't ever go down, then WoW just won't be my choice of MMO considering what I find fun to do in these types of rpg's, is heal.

I truly hope this doesn't go into effect. We don't need to feel more nerfed than we already will.
85 Tauren Priest
9580
I.e. the new mana bar could work like this (based soley off of base mana) with spells consuming a solid % of it. and spirit would directly(based on a level algorithm which would be simple(for me at least) to make) regen a % of your mana per sec so you would see healer mana behave more like the rogue/hunter energy/focus bar. with certain abilities granting you a FREE spell/instant and reduced cost % spell. It would be MUCH easier to work the game mechanics into this and wipe out all the useless fluff around mana and make healing much more demanding/concise and quite a bit more fun(do you stack spirit for faster regen of your limited % bar, or other stats so the heals you do cast hit harder/for more etc) then mastery could play a much more exciting role in heals and become a more equal stat with crit and haste.

I.E. Healer <manaenergyfocus @ 100%) Strongest heal consumes 35-50% of the whole bar (healing at base level 95 in heroics gear the TANK for 85% of his health and most dps and other healers for 100% of their health)reasonably slow cast(2.5-3 secs with haste), the natural regen rate is say 5% per tick, a good starter but discourages casting to many strong heals and heavily discourages over healing, assortment of smart/instant/quick/medium to weak heals 5-15% of the mana pool, lets you heal many people taking light damage swiftly and quickly(heals like swiftmend with efforlesence, prayer of healing, etc). Smart Heals (a/a disc healing bonuses, prayer of mending,chain heal, lifebloom, etc) would heal smartly(lowest health target,jumping, etc) requiring 15-25% but offering some sort of bonus buff(say your next heal after casting the smart heal will heal for 25% more etc). Suddenly base class healing abilities(a rogue's recouperate, fury warrior bloodthirst etc) suddenly become important to ensure your own surviability and taxing on healers, forcing dps to play smart, not stand in fire(instead of the standard instant 80-90% of their health punishment) etc. Suddenly the raid as a whole starts working more in sync. Player skill in general would ramp up as the need arises, bosses of course would still require tunning but in general the amount of mechanics at play in health regen vs mana bars and mana regen become much much much more effecient and less(system) resource consuming.

That is my two cents, no one seems to be offering actual logical revamps of the mana system.
85 Night Elf Druid
10895
Along the same vein of suggesting the removal of Replenishment, the other mana return mechanics that scale off of % max mana shouldn't be removed, but simply re-tuned to scale off of Spirit. After all, the goal is to make Spirit the primary regeneration stat again, and reward those players that stack it with a significant difference.

It's possible that this would again lead to the possibility of too much regeneration, but at least in this design it would have the cost of lower throughput and smaller mana pool to start. Only certain styles of healing could accommodate that.
100 Blood Elf Priest
13730
11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders.

I'm willing to begrudgingly agree with this, even though it completely goes against your statements that the healing model was 'working as intended' when I was struggling through the entry heroics on day 2-3 in ilvl 329 gear as a priest before you buffed the everloving snot out of both specs.

11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
and a little too easy for raiders.

This, on the other hand...not so much.

11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once.

If this is the goal, the entire healing model is broken, at least for priests.

- Casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient: For Disc, this has zero benefit. Actually, it has negative benefit. This is true at all gear levels.

I assume you've done the math on this, because we certainly have, and Heal is our second-least-efficient way of actually generating/protecting hitpoints. When our goal is to actually heal someone, even a single target, appropriate use of any of our 4 mainstay spells - Penance, PoH, GHeal, or PWS - is going to provide more bang for our mana buck than the "keep casting Heal to keep up with the damage" strategy.

We will use Heal on a target at/near full health to trigger certain secondary effects because it's our most efficient way of reducing WS duration, refreshing Grace with Penance on CD, or proccing Inspiration, provided a target isn't damaged enough to get some value out of GHeal. But again, we'll cast it on a full-health target and not care if the whole thing goes to overheal. We would use it the same way even if it generated no healing at all; its niche is not "when a smaller heal is sufficient" but instead "when the target doesn't actually need to be healed at all," which is a much smaller niche.

For Disc, Heal is simply not efficient enough or big enough or fast enough to bother with for actual healing purposes, especially on non-Grace (non-tank) targets, who are the primary targets for whom smaller single-target heals might be of some value. And since it's our only "smaller" heal, we kind of have a problem here.

- Casting a slower heal when death isn't imminent: In a sense, this one's kind of broken for everyone. All of our instants are better in every way than all of our cast-time single-target heals.

But even if we're talking strictly cast-time single-target heals, Holy's got a problem here. You see, the closer a target is to full health, the more likely it is that Flash Heal is going to be a better choice than Greater Heal in an environment where you can't take the HPS-loss of spending 2 seconds on Heal. Flash Heal's not going to get sniped, it's less likely that someone's going to apply a HoT before it goes off, it costs the same amount, and it generates Serendipity. And for a mid-health target you can actually do Renew -> Flash Heal in almost the same amount of time as it takes to cast Greater Heal, making a far more efficient use of those ~2.2 seconds.

As death becomes more imminent, Greater Heal actually starts to be a better choice than Flash Heal, because it's big enough to counter a solid hit. Flash Heal only outscales it again when the target is practically dead and you're making a last-ditch effort to save them.
100 Blood Elf Priest
13730
(continued)
- Casting a single-target heal when the group isn't all taking damage at once:

This is just plain a bad idea for everyone, especially priests. I have a hard time believing you didn't intentionally make this a bad strategy, considering that you have to know that all of our single-target heals are at best about half as efficient and provide 2/3 of the throughput of our AoE options, and that (for Disc) you severely penalize single-target healing off our primary target.

In Cata, it's only a good idea (for healers with viable non-stack-dependent AoE heals) to cast a single-target heal on a single target who's taking sustained damage that's dramatically greater than the damage intake of the rest of the group averaged out over a fairly long time span. If there's scattered multi-target damage, even if it's not technically AoE or even simultaneous, the AoEs are simply better. Even if they overheal.

The epitome of ridiculousness is reached by Disc, who will happily cast PoH as long as it will hit the equivalent of about 1.5 targets without overhealing and we can expect the DAs to be consumed or rollable - and who, in lieu of single-target healing, will simply stand and wait until we can reach that pathetically-minimal PoH threshold. But even holy priests will PoH on 3 targets in Sanc.

This isn't a product of us having too much mana or scaling too well with mana. I'd really like to emphasize that point. This has very little to do with our available mana; these spell priorities, which go directly against your intent, have been in place ever since I was healing the entry heroics in 329 gear. The difference is simply in the amount of flexibility we have. At that time I could easily hard OOM if I tried to spot heal instead of waiting to PoH, and I actually kind of needed to push PoH efficiency by holding it until I had 4+ targets hurt. Now, I can operate at a substantially lower level of efficiency and have the freedom to spot heal when I feel it's best for the raid, even if it's worse for my mana.

The ironic thing is that now that I supposedly "don't have to worry about mana," I'm actually coming a lot closer to what you claim is the design intent than I was at the beginning when I was mana-starved. Healers aren't dumb - we know what spells are appropriately designed for a given situation. But when the spell efficiencies are so heavily imbalanced in favour of AoEs, when we don't even have an efficient single-target option, much less one that can remotely keep up on throughput...we lean on the AoEs.
Edited by Kaels on 11/11/2011 8:24 PM PST
85 Tauren Warrior
3415
Yeah, hearing about this really bummed me out. I'd raided as a holy pally since I started playing WoW, and I quit in Cataclysm. They completely changed the healer model so that as you leveled up, you got weaker. My warrior was getting crazy health and mitigation, my dps classes were doing INSANE amounts of damage, but my healer was running oom on just about every fight, and her heals felt gimp.

It just wasn't a fun, satisfying feeling at all. I raided on that pally for about a month, and then stopped. : /

It stinks to hear that Blizz is going to be giving anybody who's stuck with their healer the same treatment in MoP. Now it's gonna be even worse, because there won't even be a light at the end of the tunnel. At least with Cataclysm, the intention was that eventually you'd get to a comfortable level again. I guess their goal now is for that to never happen.

The unfortunate truth is that healers are the role via which every fight is tuned. It's all about incoming damage vs. outgoing heals, and the rate of mana spent vs. mana regenned. The dps timers? Those are just to make sure the dps are geared/competent enough to earn a spot. If you can pass the ilevel test and the rotational test, you're good - it's healers that get the brunt of the work in every raiding encounter.

I honestly don't know how people still play that role. I did it and loved it for years, and it peaked during Wrath - since Cataclysm, it's truly become a thankless job, since it isn't even gratifying or fun anymore.

I really hope Blizz reconsiders this change. It sounds needlessly destructive, and people that love their healers are going to be bummed when they yet again head into a new expansion with a heavy nerf.
100 Tauren Shaman
11960
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.

The other part of the problem is that, for some healers, they get mana back based on the size of their mana pool. So the more mana they have, the more they regen?

Meanwhile, other healers do not have such scaling, which creates imbalance.

This change is much needed.
Edited by Matuk on 11/11/2011 8:29 PM PST
85 Tauren Priest
9580


I agree with this 100%, as harsh as it may sound. A lot of this is cause of "mistakes" you made from WotLK to Cata, which you, as a developement team, never seem to admit until it's not a hot topic anymore. Healing has NEVER been more fun than it is now in Cata, and I think if this change makes it through, that won't be much the case anymore. You raised the mana cost of paladin heals three times this expansion alone, and we were just supposed to be okay with that. Why are we always getting nerfed time and time again. People like feeling more powerful, not less. When is that going to be apparent to the developement team?


Feeling more powerful should come from DRAMATICALLY stronger heals rather than infinte mana though people like BIG NUMBERS not infinte health/mana pools(otherwise we would all just be Namco players). Over Gearing IS a factor It is FUN to over gear and go smash old content, but I would prefer over gearing offer a more DIRECT reward(fantastic and unique procs, dramatically increased heals, i want to personally heal for 4x as much as a fresh a 85 346 geared healer not for 2x as much), YES this may mean too much focus on one type of class mechanic(the class of healers that is, the 4 classes being Healer, Tank, Dps and Utility(aka druids in mists/druidsshamanspaladins in vanilla).

Another alternative is really have a "bar" based healing system like rage/runic power, have spirit effect its rengernation and have our weak spells GENERATE energy on the bar to be able to cast our big heals, this would add a dynamic and complex (and VERY FUN) system to healing, gear would feel more powerful as it would mean stronger weak heals and greatly stronger strong heals/instant heals/special cooldown abilities(i.e. you could make power word shield cost 100 manicrage shield for an incredible amount(i.e. 400% of the targets maximum health or perhaps current health remaining for pvp balancing) and have a medium length cooldown). there is PLENTY of genius and unique or ground breaking options for healers than just "mana bar" = so many heals per minute with spirit = increasing number of heals per minute....I'd much rather have my heals achieve something more than just "heals per second." ....aka more cooldown abilities ;D!

Intelect should never have effected mana as it does now...folding spell power into it is a good choice but spirit should be much more important.
85 Troll Mage
12470
I suspect this has as much to do with Arcane Mages as with healers. I have two mages; one is in new 85 gear, and there's still some gameplay in mana management for him. But on Morsk here, I can all but spam the AB button for entire fights, with the occasional Evocation. (Shard of Woe doesn't help; I wish Blizzard has listened and not let DPS benefit from it. Although I suppose it's just as bad for healers, and DPS are no worse; the thing just shouldn't exist.)

The gameplay of Arcane is mocked constantly, but Arcane actually played decently in the weaker gear, and only turned into outright nonsense with huge mana pools.
Edited by Morsk on 11/11/2011 8:36 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
15420
For Cata, I have been playing a disc/holy priest for the benefit of my raid group, and I initially did not like the way mana regen worked for the priests at the beginning of cata. It was not til things became so bad that forums had posts where people were saying "priest healer in randoms? omfg kick" that blizz buffed our mana regen up. However I dont dispute the fact that with practice and gear, we do come to a stage where our regen is good enough not to tax our mana. This however is taking into account of our gear which is higher than the current instances. In terms of difficulty for a new level 85 entering dungeons, I believe that you are taking into account the wrong set of factors. If you actually enter a random 346 heroic nowadays, you will find that most players are not prepared/dont really care about the mechanics of the fights they're encountering. Even after the nerf to the dungeon bosses damages it is still not a trifle when people get stomped on, or ccs arnt employed, or people stand in fire.

Please for the love of god, do not penalise your healers for the random pugs failures to recognise boss mechanics and avoid them. You will forever be trying to nerf encounters because "fights are too hard" and then nerfing your healers healing capabilities because "healers are too untaxed".

It is my firm belief that healing at 346 levels are adequate if people actually knew what they were doing instead of expecting fights to be a steamrolled encounter.
85 Tauren Priest
9580
I suspect this has as much to do with Arcane Mages as with healers. I have two mages; one is in new 85 gear, and there's still some gameplay in mana management for him. But on Morsk here, I can all but spam the AB button for entire fights, with the occasional Evocation. (Shard of Woe doesn't help; I wish Blizzard has listened and not let DPS benefit from it.)

The gameplay of Arcane is mocked constantly, but Arcane actually played decently in the weaker gear, and only turned into outright nonsense with huge mana pools.


Which is a personal problem of mine since it outshines fire(which can greatly exceed or greatly underpreformed since it is the exciting RNG base), and destroys frost on most fights(not to mention slightly better utility because of slow's benefit in caster boss fights), I still play a pve frost mage because it is fun, the nerf to frost for pvp reasons I heartedly agreed with but it hurt them in pve too much(mana is also an issue for frost pve as it currently stands), again I agree with the point that "max mana in max gear is grossly overpowered" because of it's near infinte nature because of % scaling and returns( you can easily reach ~240K mana when proced right and easily return 60-140% of your bar once they fall off), my suggested model again would work far more smoothly for most dps casters as well(having long cooldown nukes return say 50-80% of the bar(5 min cd type abilities) or shorter ones like Deep freeze(30 sec cd) returning say 25% of the bar, and dps caster mana in general consuming much lower %s of total mana).
100 Night Elf Priest
17940
I really don't want to be mana starved through the first tier of MoP as a holy priest, again. God, until the recent 2pc, I still had mana problems :(
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5930
11/11/2011 07:08 PMPosted by Zxillius
While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted


Really? I see nothing at all of the goals that were outright stated as the mana change purpose. I've never seen a restoration druid use Nourish, priests don't use heal at all. Paladins can spam just about anything they want with no regard for mana (nerf incoming). Mana cooldowns being rotated essentially removes the need for sustaining mana at any level above 346.

Heroic damage is (was) so high that if you aren't spamming heals your players die instantly. Mana is not an issue. Everything is about throughput. I thought these were the reasons stated for changing the way healing worked and the direct reasons for scaling health up to 200,000 for tanks.

But you accomplished exactly what you wanted? It seems something is wrong with this statement, based on previous reasoning and announcements. If gear scaling (in the game that you designed) completely nullifies the entire purpose of the Expansion's changes, don't you think that means it didn't work out the way you wanted?


You amuse me...
100 Human Priest
23610
11/11/2011 08:23 PMPosted by Chiz
I honestly don't know how people still play that role. I did it and loved it for years, and it peaked during Wrath - since Cataclysm, it's truly become a thankless job, since it isn't even gratifying or fun anymore.


I suck worse at DPS. I enjoy it more, but I suck at it on any mobility fight. And I wanted to finish Cata after all the time I invested into it. That's pretty much it. :-/
Edited by Elliora on 11/11/2011 8:51 PM PST
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