I don't get why the MoP int change is needed

85 Troll Shaman
5520
The way we see it... we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted... When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


But this new healing model is boring and frustrating.

Green bars go down? Green bars go up! I stay out of the fire, everyone is happy!

What is so hard to understand about that? I liked keeping the group at full, playing whack-a-mole with healbot in wotlk. I liked healing quickly and effectively with only riptide, chain heal, healing wave and lesser healing wave (and earth shield). I loved bosses like Stinky, where I was furiously filling green bars asap, to make sure I was ready for the next round of green bar filling.

What I don't like (enough to not even bother with doing it it / subscribing to the game for 10 months of this xpac) is this whole "healers should let people be half dead all the time, because it's about managing your mana pool, not actually healing people" mentality you folks dreamed up. Sorry, but that crap is psychologically unsatisfying, hence, as you put it, boring and frustrating.

Simply put, Blizzard:

Green bars go down? Green bars go up! Else, I'll hate healing in WoW and keep playing EQ2 instead, where it's psychologically satisfying and fun...

Disagree? Good for you. I'm entitled to my own outlook on life and what I feel is fun, thanks.
5 Human Warlock
0

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


What you are saying is that the less skilled raids, which generally take more damage, will require the more skilled healers to be successful. Interesting!
90 Pandaren Shaman
18495
I'm interested to see how this change is going to be implemented.

As an aside...

I loved bosses like Stinky


You're either joking or you're just plain bad.com
25 Draenei Priest
290
i really hope this doesn't go live and i'm not even a healer.. as a caster dps it sounds really stupid to me. as a fresh 85 i really can't AoE til i scale my mana up, so if it never scales up, how am i supposed to be able to spam aoe when its required?
and having the EXACT same amount of mana as everyone else sounds lame and boring ;\
91 Tauren Shaman
8890
What I'm failing to understand is this. Blizz is obviously making healing harder with this int change and yet tanking(the other core of the group) has gotten so easy its stupid with the threat buff that came in a while ago. Explain it to me Blizz where is your logic here. Tanking should take at least if not more attention and skill than you want to make healing out to be.
100 Human Priest
19865
I'm interested to see how this change is going to be implemented.

As an aside...

I loved bosses like Stinky



You're either joking or you're just plain bad.com


Awww, Stinky was kinda fun to get pretty numbers on Recount!!! But maybe he's thinking of Festergut? They were both pretty smelly.
5 Human Warlock
0
11/11/2011 11:09 PMPosted by Brimann
What I'm failing to understand is this. Blizz is obviously making healing harder with this int change and yet tanking(the other core of the group) has gotten so easy its stupid with the threat buff that came in a while ago. Explain it to me Blizz where is your logic here. Tanking should take at least if not more attention and skill than you want to make healing out to be.


Even worse, they are making it harder for average raid teams to be successful. I guess their plan is to use this as a mechanism to challenge the top progression guilds and then allow the lesser guilds to be successful later on in the expansion through encounter nerfs. What a heck of a way to design an xpac.
85 Troll Shaman
5520
I'm interested to see how this change is going to be implemented.

As an aside...

I loved bosses like Stinky



You're either joking or you're just plain bad.com


Awww, Stinky was kinda fun to get pretty numbers on Recount!!! But maybe he's thinking of Festergut? They were both pretty smelly.


The one where the whole group was taken down to a sliver of health every X seconds. Pretty sure it was stinky or the other hound. Either way, I like casting healing spells that heal (at least can) for big jumps in the green bars and I like my green bars to be full. Not full? You will be... you will be!

Kara/ZA/ZG/Hyjal were fun in BC too. I miss the +heal / +damage / int / spirit model of back then. It was more interesting to putter with. This all int all the time thing is too simple, so in that regard I do hope they'll spread out the important healing stats a bit. Really, you can stack int and forget about mastery and spirit and do fine, because int accomplishes too many things all at once. Though, they could just rename Int as Win and call it a day...
90 Orc Shaman
16280
11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
Skillful healers should prosper.


I forgot to touch on this in my last post:

I agree. Skillful healers should prosper, but at what cost? A change like this to the healing model is only going to drive more and more people away from this role. I know this isn't what you want, but its going to happen.


11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


This is true, yet skill isn't the only thing leading to that success.
We were told with the implementation of the new healer model that, as we progressed through the raids, healers would feel more powerful because the mana issue would lessen and we would also be able to use our more powerful spells more often. Tanks get massive health pools and avoidance percentages as they progress, and DPS gets bigger and bigger numbers (and in the case of casters, some limited mana pool interaction aswell).

This change means healers at higher gear levels will not feel any more powerful. We will be healing the same percentages of raid health with the same spells throughout an expansion. To me, that is boring.
90 Draenei Priest
16820
Haven't read through the entire thread (yet - I plan to once I get a moment) but I'd like to say I am personally not at all enthusiastic of getting nerfed more on my healers. I enjoy healing the most in WoW, and have an 85 of each healer. My main is a healing priest.

I honestly don't know how thrilled I'm going to be over MoP if it's just going to be the Cata healing model 2.0. In the eyes of most healers, it was a failure. No thank you.
90 Undead Priest
16495

I mean, sure, the freshly 85 healer in Cata might not be able to heal very much, but that's why she starts with the normal heroics, then moves on to ZA/ZG and 4.0 raids, and then finally to 4.2 FL raids as her gearing permits. I have no doubt that the fully epiced out 378/391 healer with the 150k mana bar is having just as tough a time healing H Rag as the 333 healer making her way through Grim Batol.

This is completely wrong. I geared up through healing heroics. I started off in 312 greens and a couple 333 blues and until I reached ilvl 339 my guildies and I would walk into the zone line to do heroics instead of queue up for them. It was rough but I healed them and we pushed through. I had to use every ability on my bar to heal while that undergeared, with undergeared DPS and tanks, but we still succeeded. I healed off and on throughout T11 as needed, but as we recruited some more healers, eventually by the time we started doing heroics I never had to heal. Until about a week or two ago. The entire time I had been collecting offset healing gear, so it's not that far behind. At first I tried healing like I had been, using my whole toolbox and trying to conserve mana, but I noticed my HPS was awful compared to the other healers.

Then I looked at what spells they were actually using, and then I looked at my mana during the fights. My mana was never dropping below 90% and they were all using their most powerful, most inefficient heals, and nearly spamming them. And as long as I used shadowfiend on time and made sure I took advantage of rapture, I could basically just spam shields and flash heal and PoH and ignore my other abilities. Healing was no longer a fun mental game of mana conservation and using the right spell. It was back to just spamming my most inefficient spells. There was no cleverness. There was no nuance.

I realize some players like playing this way, but I think it's bad for the game. If I had to main spec heal all the time in a game where healing requires no thought or effort, I would probably just quit out of boredom.
100 Undead Priest
16980

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted,


You did huh? When have I had to think this entire tier. I don't even have heal on my bars... and I think I've only cast it a small handful of times this entire expansion.

11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun.


Then you failed. We were horribly starved at the beginning (except for resto druids). Holy priests still have some issues (lol @ spirit gear in Firelands).

11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


How about creating a raid healing model that supports your goal then?
Cata raiding has been a spamfest since most T11 Heroics and even a couple normals (Even Chim normal you HAD to use flash heal to get to your targets in time, and P1 Al'Akir was insane).

In the end healing as a whole has been a complete failure this tier. Not only have you failed to make healing about Triage, but you have also failed in that you have ruined healing by removing a healers power. In every other raid before Cata, a healer had the power to outheal mistakes... now we don't... our heals just are strong enough relative to the damage (if the damage isn't an instant 1 shot).

Honestly, seeing quotes like the above really leave me a bit hopeless for MoP healing. Monks won't have to think like a healer to heal, and you are going to punish healers even more by forcing us away from throughput stats and into more and more regen stats... which will result in miserable game play for those without gear (now you'll need Int to heal for decent amounts, SPI to regen and Have enough mana to cast more than a couple of heals, Crit/Haste/Mastery to have enough output to actually heal anything)...

MoP looks like it will be an even bigger failure than Cata was for healers... but that's ok, you can roll with a raid of all monk healers who can DPS TO HEAL... rawr!!!
100 Human Priest
19865
11/12/2011 12:23 AMPosted by Poena
In the end healing as a whole has been a complete failure this tier. Not only have you failed to make healing about Triage, but you have also failed in that you have ruined healing by removing a healers power. In every other raid before Cata, a healer had the power to outheal mistakes... now we don't... our heals just are strong enough relative to the damage (if the damage isn't an instant 1 shot).


So I'm not the only one who feels like Cata healing is WotLK healing with smaller heals?

I did have fun with WotLK healing because I felt powerful and it was fast paced.... it wasn't thoughtful as much as BC healing was (which I also loved). Cata I just spam heals but they are sucky tiny heals and I feel like I am bailing the Titanic out with a bucket.
90 Tauren Druid
16210
Do people in this thread not realize that Heroic(391ilvl) geared players OUTGEAR this nerfed firelands raid??

If healing and mana conservation are non-issues for your healers, then how bout you start 1 or 2 healing these fights(10 man) 3-4 (25 man) so that you enjoy using all the tools in your arsenal.

This game is supposed to be what the player makes it.
Edited by Redxiìi on 11/12/2011 12:30 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
8020
11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


It sounds like you are planning to make spell selection and mana management even more of an issue with these changes. You're claiming healers are getting "bored or frustrated" because "skill" isn't a big factor with healing. The implication is that they quitting healing or even the game because it was just too easy.

I don't really know if this is really the case with the general player population. If it is, why the big unprecedented early nerfs to the current tier of raiding? Why do I get near instant queues as a healer with the looking for dungeon tool? Why are PuGs always asking for healers on trade chat?

I'd say most healers just want to have fun and be challenged a bit but don't have a desire to prove their "skills" non-stop in every engagement due to cumbersome mechanics and restrictions. When you're running a dungeon for the 15th time, you're more likely to just want to get it done with a good margin of error available rather than use it as a test to prove your status as an elite healer. You can always test your skills on the more advanced content if you want.

Finally, there is no problem with the goal of making spirit more useful and taking intellect down a notch from "super stat" status. If done correctly, it could be helpful. However, I do challenge the assumption driving these changes that healing has become too easy for the general population and we need to weed out the unskilled so the skilled can shine once more.
90 Tauren Druid
16210
IMO if they nerf intellect, they should let us reforge it.
90 Worgen Druid
6550
11/11/2011 07:45 PMPosted by Elliora
Well, between potentially an Item Squish, the lack of mana/int scaling intentionally designed to slow down healer scaling, and some content scaling your stats back to match specific item level, I think you're going to create serious problems with players feeling like they're not character progressing (even when they are).


This. Cata felt like severe regression and even after a year I still feel extremely weak, my heals went up a bit but health scaled just as much. So I can cast more since my regen went up but the heals I cast still feel very weak. This was just not a fun expac for me to heal and I mainly stayed to finish out the story since I suck at dpsing while moving (i gave it a try on heroic Rag it was not pretty lol, I can do Baleroc fine though).

Honestly I see no reason to buy MoP. I so hoped for a change in the healing model to make me excited about WoW again but this will not be it. I think the changes in spell costs/regen were fine in Cata the heal size nerf was way, way too big and this was not fun for me. MoP does not have a story that interests me due to Alliance/Horde focus and lack of a main villain and now it looks like healers are once again being made weaker. No thanks. After Blizz lost almost 2m customers during the first year of Cata I do not understand how they can once again justify severely nerfing healer scaling/improvement.


I much prefer these weaker feeling heals. In wrath and prior content all healers powerful direct heals would restore about half if not more of the tanks health and it was rather pathetic how spiky a tanks health had to get to make keeping them alive an actual challenge. This way it feels like I'm actually working together with other healers in the raid and making a noticable impact instead of alternating spiking the tank from 40-50% health to full every cast. Raid healing also seems a bit more steady with more time to heal up between damage and less change of dps getting gibbed at every turn.
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