I don't get why the MoP int change is needed

100 Human Priest
It sounds like you are planning to make spell selection and mana management even more of an issue with these changes. You're claiming healers are getting "bored or frustrated" because "skill" isn't a big factor with healing. The implication is that they quitting healing or even the game because it was just too easy.

Exactly. I'm not bored and frustrated because healing isn't "hard" enough. I'm bored and frustrated because I dislike the current healing style and I feel like I've spent the past year trying to bail out the Titanic with a bucket.
Edited by Elliora on 11/12/2011 12:55 AM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
11/12/2011 12:27 AMPosted by Elliora
So I'm not the only one who feels like Cata healing is WotLK healing with smaller heals?

That's exactly what it is.
85 Tauren Paladin
If this change goes ahead. holy paladins will require judgement to give the mana it does now & not have it removed in 5.0.
100 Blood Elf Priest
Then I looked at what spells they were actually using, and then I looked at my mana during the fights. My mana was never dropping below 90% and they were all using their most powerful, most inefficient heals, and nearly spamming them. And as long as I used shadowfiend on time and made sure I took advantage of rapture, I could basically just spam shields and flash heal and PoH and ignore my other abilities. Healing was no longer a fun mental game of mana conservation and using the right spell. It was back to just spamming my most inefficient spells. There was no cleverness. There was no nuance.

You are aware that PoH and PWS are your two most efficient non-CD spells, right?

People need to look at the numbers. Seriously. Heal is hideously inefficient. Don't believe it's efficient just because Blizzard tells you it is. It barely beats GHeal for Holy, and it's worse than GHeal for Disc; as Disc, the only spell less efficient than Heal is Flash Heal.

Now, as for why you'd be spamming any significant amount of Flash Heal as Disc, I really have no idea. It frankly sucks in 98% of the circumstances you encounter.
85 Human Priest
TBC healing was the best state healing has ever been.
70 Night Elf Rogue
11/12/2011 01:58 AMPosted by Udenlo
TBC healing was the best state healing has ever been.

When you had to stack 5 rshams to succeed?
85 Blood Elf Warlock
11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted

Im going to have to call bs on that comment. Originally there was a healing model based on triage. That is gone. There was a system of use your fast heal and oom. That is not true anymore. I can flash heal in disc as much as I please and I never oom.

While I am glad you said that the gap between new 85 healers going into dungeons and raiders in terms of difficulty is not correct, I think it is because of the cataclysm healing model, which you so boldly defended.

The healing model was broken from the start. It was not thought through to the gear levels healers would eventually reach, and that in itself is a failure on the devs part.

The thing that gets me is that there have even been statements about the healing model not working out how you envisioned it, and yet you still come here and say that it acomplished what you wanted.
Edited by Osaze on 11/12/2011 2:03 AM PST
85 Human Priest
11/12/2011 01:58 AMPosted by Zxillius
TBC healing was the best state healing has ever been.

When you had to stack 5 rshams to succeed?

I played a resto druid, I was in love. Healing in raids was kinda meh (I kinda liked managing lifebloom... and I liked solo burn healing on brutallus), but healing heroics was a blast. Give paladins their new raid/party healing abilities and revert to TBC and we are golden.

resto shaman stacking was mostly needed because of lust on specific dps groups and because of the stack mechanics of fights. Current day fights that rely on NOT stacking would not be too great for shamans.
100 Dwarf Paladin
this clearer shows the developers have fallen off the bus.

No offense, but I like the fact that I could have a large mana pool. I hate the fact that we're all going to have 50k mana straight across the board. It's retarded.

The more and more Blizzard tries to cater to the stupid people that play this game the worse and worse they make.

Hey Blizzard wake up and smell the beans, people have played this game for 7 years and enjoyed the stats, now you are taking them all way, cause the majority of your playerbase are bumbling idiots, maybe its time you dropped them and started catering to the players that brought the game this far so far.

And how is balancing our mana make things complicated seriously? You guys had everything nailed down in Vanilla and TBC, than screwed everything up in WOTLK and you can think your 15 mintue ADD players for that.

Stop catering to casual players and starting making the game you released 7 years ago. Stupid pointless meaningless changes from a development team that no longer obviously has any sense of direction and is so far out of touch with what the player base really wants.

We don't care what YOU think is good for the game. Start listening to the people that PLAY your game. You might be developers, but that doesn't mean you know what WE want.

85 Blood Elf Priest
Gromahk, you keep on saying how blizz is changeing our (healers) role and how you wont stand for it. My question is, do you even know what a role is? And what our role is?
If blizz is changing our role, does that mean that healers are going to no longer heal?

Youve said those exact words on 3 threads now: blizz is changing our role.

But blizz isnt changing our role. So I have no clue what your talking about.
From everything youve said pretty much what I am getting is that you dont want healing to be any more challenging than it is right now and that you dont like change.

I know myself, and a lot of other healers, like change and want to be challenged. Healing has once again become too easy at end game level. This happens every expansion because of the gear scaling reasons listed above. And this change blizz has mentioned will moderate that scaling issue.

And why would you not want change? Do you never get bored with the way things are. Would you have liked the game to stay the same as it was in vanilla for ever?
A couple of times youve said how if it isnt broken, dont fix it.
Things can always be improved, and just because things may work now, doesnt mean they dont get boring and shouldnt change. I currently like the healing the way it is now also, I just wish it was more challenging. But I am still looking forward to change because it will be something new and refreshing.

And yes, dps scaling being too powerful is irrelevent to our discussion of healers scaling being too powerful because, imagin this, this thread is about healers not dps.

I'm fairly certain that when Gromahk says "Blizzard is changing our role" he means that blizzard is changing healing. Again. for the fourth expansion in a row. Which is every single one. we went from vanilla, where healing was HARD. to BC where all the healers used 3-4 ranks of a single spell. then to BC where they eliminated each spell rank having a specific mana cost thus making downranking inferior, but then, healing was stupid easy that all the healers pretty much spammed their fastest heals and stacked haste because mana didn't matter all that much. and then to cata, where every healer got a wake up call, and healers realized that they actually had to pay attention while healing, and learn how to manage their mana once again. and then to MoP, where once again, healers are going to have to relearn what to do all over again
90 Blood Elf Rogue
11/11/2011 06:23 PMPosted by Kaivax
The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.

/scratch head.
Blizzard: "Downranking isn't fun design, we're removing it."
"Some" players: But now our mana pool won't reflect our good decision making skills...
Some time later..
Blizzard: /Rename spells so that using them in rotation is 99% identical to the practice of downranking.
(Think about it - you have the "fun" fast-cast heals that cost lots of mana, and the "not so fun" mana efficient spells that are slow..)
Blizzard: "Ignoring those spells exist isn't good design, we're going to make you use them now. We want your mana pool to reflect your good decision making."
Players: ...Wut.

I have no idea what's going on with the overall design process here, but I'll just have faith that it wasn't a giant loop. Good thing all my main does these days is stab things. No being confused, just stabbing. Ahhh.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
The thing that annoys me is that as soon as you get used to something, Blizz up and changes it drastically, especially if you're a paladin. I get that they are trying to make the game fun/best/interesting and for that I am incredibly grateful, but just once could they accidentally find the proper buff/spec/model and stick there?
100 Night Elf Druid
Funny how all people are talking about is healers here, while this effects all casters as well. The way I see it is that they are making it an energy bar with a higher number. The fun thing about mana is it kept getting bigger as opposed to energy/rage/focus/chi/runic power. Those all have a limit, and reaching that limit is usually a bad thing, while if your full mana(as either a healer or dps) its a sign of overgearing, easy content, or skill.

Now it will be no different than the other resources(energy/rage/focus/chi/runic power), just a higher number. And healers dont use effects(Evocation) they use spirit, while energy regens by haste, focus regens by steady shot/haste, rage/runic power regens by hitting things. This will feel like a nerf, and takes away something that made the mana users feel special compared to the others.
100 Human Priest
You created the healing environment of Wrath. You are the ones who made our gear. You are the ones who designed the encounters in such a way that we had to adapt. And then we were punished - with nerf after nerf, and finally the complete and utter !@#$ that was and is trying to gear up at 85 - for the problem you created.

You have created the healing environment in Cataclysm. You are the ones who made our gear. You are the ones who promised "triage" and delivered encounters with absolutely no margin for error, where "triage" had no place. And once again, you are going to punish us for bad design decisions you made.

Honestly I think the only real problem with Wrath was spell costs too low/regen too high although I personally feel it was not as bad as most people think it was, I think too many people got impressions from facerolling heroics designed for what, 180 ilevel in ICC gear, and facerolling normal mode ICC with the 30% buff. I was mana starved on our first HLK kill and it wasn't even at 30% it was like 25 or 20. I don't think the strength of the heals was the problem it was being able to spam the best heals a bit too much. I think just raising costs/lowering regen and having to save your mana by using cheaper heals so you could use the big heals during periods of big damage.... would be a lot more fun compared to no longer even having ANY big heals.
90 Draenei Shaman
I really think this "infinite mana" problem, if it is indeed a problem, is more of a balancing problem than a mechanic problem. If healers have infinite mana, it's because encounters aren't challenging enough to tax healer mana. The solution, then, is to go tweak the encounter, not change the functioning of a stat that's worked that way since vanilla.

The problem here is that healers scale up too well. It's obvious in PvP, for example, where for the first 2 months or so of Cataclysm, healers across the board were terrible, and only became competitive with gear, and are now borderline unkillable and too strong. Basically, they are getting "too much" from somewhere, while starting too weak. Mana from intellect seems like a great place to cut back.

The fact of the matter is, encounters already are balanced around what players are capable of, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND and in the current game the only way to challenge good healers is to make huge aoe damage phases on every boss fight in existence. Beth P2, Rhyo P2, Alys re-ignite, Ragnaros transitions, Majordomo cleaves (not that anyone soaks them anymore) etc. It's getting old for every fight to have this. Healers need to scale up more slowly, so the mana game isn't so punishing for those starting out, but isn't so simple for those who are geared, and so encounter designers don't have to include a phase like this in every fight.

Intellect not providing mana is a good proposed change.

Now, remove raid cooldowns and we'll finally see a triage style healing model that rewards playing well.
Edited by Ashunera on 11/12/2011 3:34 AM PST
90 Tauren Druid
I dont completely understand all of this but to me it sounds like they r trying to back to the beginning of cata when the heals were stressful which is pretty much the time i quit wow for close to a year cuz well, when i play the game i play to have fun and not get stressed out. The day that I have to start drinking after EACH fight like in the beginning of cata cuz i went oom is the day, I quit wow again :p
Edited by Undoer on 11/12/2011 3:47 AM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
There is so much I would love to say about this. Even though I love this game, at the same time I despise it. Every expansion healers have to completely relearn how they heal.

Keeping it real, IMO early Cata style of healing was the most fun for me. That was back when Holy Light use to generate holy power. It is almost like every time healers start to get really efficient at their style of healing you decide to somehow screw us over and tell us it is not okay for us to be getting that good with our healing style.

I do not like this change because the size of our mana pool has always been the only consistent thing that healers could flex their muscles with. Our HPS have barely increase any since the end of WotLK. Heck, most healers really don't care about big numbers as long as we are keeping the group alive; however, outside of the rare opportunities that we do get to show off our healing numbers our mana pool has always been the top indicator of how good our gear is.

Maybe others do not see it the same way I do, but for me these constant changes just makes this game frustrating and less enjoyable. The community is constantly giving idea's to what they would love to see in the game, and many times we get a "we just dont have the resource for that right now" type answer. Well I say to you...stop wasting your resources on things that are not broken, and put them to work actually adding content that the fan base wants.
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