Glyph of Inquisition feedback

100 Blood Elf Paladin
15580
"Decreased dps output for increased duration." I don't think this elegantly solves the issue of a short Inquisition time--with a clunky rotation--because you're asking us to sacrifice dps (which we likely won't be balanced around), and this would have the effect of pushing us further down in the dps rankings.

Why not have a talent (Sanctity of Battle!) that would extend Inquisition automatically, similar to how rogue's extend their Slice and Dice? It could either extend the duration by a certain # based on the Holy Power used, or, more likely, refresh the duration of Inquisition back its original duration when using Templar's Verdict. E.g., if you started with a 1 Holy Power Inquisition, it would refresh it back to 11 sec, etc.

I think having a glyph that asks us to be weaker for a smoother rotation is a step backward.

Thoughts?
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85 Undead Death Knight
6460
11/10/2011 07:35 PMPosted by Elidra
I think having a glyph that asks us to be weaker for a smoother rotation is a step backward.

It wouldn't necessarily be a DPS loss. Above a certain duration increase:damage loss ratio, it'd be a damage boost due to using more Templar's Verdicts.


what they would most likely do is try to make it damage neutral. I just don't think that is probably going to happen and it would end up a DPS loss or gain. Honestly in MoP with a more consistent Holy Power intake the duration of Inquisition wouldn't be terrible.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15580
11/10/2011 08:34 PMPosted by Snitzngiggle
Honestly in MoP with a more consistent Holy Power intake the duration of Inquisition wouldn't be terrible.


Well, this is an excellent point. I picked up the 2pc set bonus on the PTR and just having judgement give Holy Power makes the spec so much more fun to play, and I always have a free HoPo to use on Inquisition.

But still, I'd rather the luxury of extending the buff via talents or abilities and make it a baseline 30%. If prot wants to generate more threat, he can hit Inq for +30% damage, and honestly, it's not likely holy is going to use it, anyway, since the healing loss is too great in pvp.
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62 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
The issue with making it last longer is how much damage Inquisition actually bestows someone who uses it properly. Inquisition in it's current iteration is one of, if not the best, ability for damage Retribution has.

Instead of the ability being changed in some way, I'd rather see more of an indicator of it falling off/not being up available through the standard UI. Using the standard UI without any modifications for Retribution Paladins these days is a hassle, you have a lot to keep track of with it being really unintuitive to do so.
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85 Human Paladin
13740
Already voiced some thoughts here:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3566007251

TL,DR version is this: the glyph either becomes mandatory which is not the stated intent of the 5.0 glyph system or it is a choice that might buff, say, AE damage but nerf single target damage which would require frequent switching, or it is damage neutral but a playstyle choice (i.e. I don't care about less Holy damage because I deliver more Templar's Verdicts / Divine Storms), but that might change stat priorities (i.e. the glyph makes me favor crit over mastery) which might require re-speccing, gemming, glyphing (other spells), forging, etc.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13980
From just a gut reaction based on zero numbers, I wouldn't take that glyph at all for pve. I don't find Inquisition upkeep so tedious that I would trade off bigger numbers floating on my screen for less work.

I do hope they can make it damage neutral, or at least very close. It's nice to actually have a choice.
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Community Manager
The intent is that it is not damage neutral. Yes, managing Inquisition should mean higher DPS, if you are exceptional at managing it. However, a lot of players find that they can’t operate their class at full effectiveness when they are actually in an encounter with all of the running around, target switching and other encounter mechanics that aren’t present when blasting away at a target dummy. One of the biggest differences we see between good guilds and best-in-the-world guilds is that the latter can maintain maximum DPS in almost any situation.

The hope by implementing a glyph like this (and we aren’t sure we will, which is why we want feedback) is that your empirical DPS with the glyph may be higher than your theoretical DPS without it. Players who ignored the glyph might do lower DPS (because they are mortal and sometimes fumble with Inquisition) than if they just used the glyph.

This is the kind of idea that, if it works, would be something we could do it for most classes and specs: trade off higher theoretical damage / tanking / healing for an easier rotation that might just mean higher effectiveness for some players.
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100 Draenei Paladin
17310
11/11/2011 08:09 PMPosted by Kaivax
Yes, managing Inquisition should mean higher DPS, if you are exceptional at managing it.


I'm sure I'll get hell for this, but I'm glad to hear that.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13435
The intent is that it is not damage neutral. Yes, managing Inquisition should mean higher DPS, if you are exceptional at managing it. However, a lot of players find that they can’t operate their class at full effectiveness when they are actually in an encounter with all of the running around, target switching and other encounter mechanics that aren’t present when blasting away at a target dummy. One of the biggest differences we see between good guilds and best-in-the-world guilds is that the latter can maintain maximum DPS in almost any situation.

The hope by implementing a glyph like this (and we aren’t sure we will, which is why we want feedback) is that your empirical DPS with the glyph may be higher than your theoretical DPS without it. Players who ignored the glyph might do lower DPS (because they are mortal and sometimes fumble with Inquisition) than if they just used the glyph.

This is the kind of idea that, if it works, would be something we could do it for most classes and specs: trade off higher theoretical damage / tanking / healing for an easier rotation that might just mean higher effectiveness for some players.

But that doesn't sound very fun. =\

Part of the reason I prefer Mut spec over Combat spec on my Rogue is because I *don't* have to manage Slice and Dice so much. However, if I notice that SnD is, for some reason, about to fall off, I can use a finishing move at a lower number of combo points to both put out some damage with those points AND refresh that buff.

That's fun to me, because it causes interesting interactions, rather than just going "Oh, my buff is about to fall off, I need to refresh it now." The same principle applies to Holy Power and Inquisition.
Edited by Matuk on 11/11/2011 8:38 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
14000
I hate to be the one to say it, but Inquisition is not difficult to manage, nor is it a fun mechanic. All it does is provide a passive damage increase at the cost of using an ability that actually changes how you play/actively does something visibly.

I am someone who does not enjoy Slice and Dice, Savage Roar, or Inquisition. I was never happy that they dumped such an un-interesting skill onto our class. That it neither gives access to new abilities while active nor plays an interesting role for maintenance is truly a negative.

All told, I'd prefer if I never had to hit Inquisition. I'd much prefer to have an alternative to Templar's Verdict that did something more engaging, interesting, or temporary-playstyle changing.

Please, I ask that developers try to make these tired and boring mechanics more fun. Building up resources only to spend them on a passive buff is -really- a buzz kill.
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87 Night Elf Death Knight
5360
What feels bad to me about Inq is that CPs for Ret come in at a very rigid pace. You hit CS every ~4 seconds (with inevitable Haste on gear). If you fail to do this, you're losing out on CP generation "forever".

This means you can't pace it. Rogue CP generation feels much smoother and more intuitive because you can bank the timing — if you need 5 CPs right now, you can dump all your Energy. If you see an SnD refresh coming up, you can hold off on further CP generation temporarily.

The rigid pace of Ret's CP generation forces you to feel helpless sometimes (when you want to quickly burn off some HP then redo Inq) and overloaded at others (when you've got a collision going on between CP-spending and Inq dropping "soon" but not soon enough to be efficient).

That's my only annoyance with Inq, really. I mean yes, it's a very contrived pacing mechanism for Ret and doesn't feel anywhere CLOSE to how cool SnD sending you into a flurry of attacks does — but it's fine, it works. (Savage Roar has the same problem — god, these abilities are bland.)

It's just the pacing of Ret's CP generation. That's what makes things feel "clunky". If Ret had more control over the ebb and flow of Holy Power, it would feel a lot better. I don't really see a glyph making Inq longer as really solving any of the things that make it annoying.

On that note — it's amazing how much nicer things feel during Bloodlust, when CS hits 2.89s cooldown and I can follow a happy cycle of CS / filler / CS. This is how the spec should be baseline, imo.
Edited by Notbonfleur on 11/11/2011 8:42 PM PST
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90 Worgen Death Knight
16905
I don't think adding glyphs to change from standard to automatic is the answer. Many people will avoid the glyph for fear of being judged if found out on the armory, and it also, for lack of a better term, 'feels bad' to think of giving up on trying harder at one's class. Just my thoughts on this.

I do like the idea of TV refreshing the duration of inquisition, or something along those lines.

edit: just read Ruiizu's post 2 above me, and it's true, inquisition, slice and dice and savage roar are all abilities that I would not consider fun. I'm sure others think they are, but I think it would be more interesting if other attacks had some percent chance to proc these effects, so that if you are performing your rotation well, they should just be up most of the time.
Edited by Lamprey on 11/11/2011 8:58 PM PST
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85 Gnome Death Knight
5585
I see this as more of a pvp glyph than anything else. Increased sustained dps as well. I think more people will use it than are gonna admit.
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85 Undead Death Knight
6460
The intent is that it is not damage neutral. Yes, managing Inquisition should mean higher DPS, if you are exceptional at managing it. However, a lot of players find that they can’t operate their class at full effectiveness when they are actually in an encounter with all of the running around, target switching and other encounter mechanics that aren’t present when blasting away at a target dummy. One of the biggest differences we see between good guilds and best-in-the-world guilds is that the latter can maintain maximum DPS in almost any situation.

The hope by implementing a glyph like this (and we aren’t sure we will, which is why we want feedback) is that your empirical DPS with the glyph may be higher than your theoretical DPS without it. Players who ignored the glyph might do lower DPS (because they are mortal and sometimes fumble with Inquisition) than if they just used the glyph.

This is the kind of idea that, if it works, would be something we could do it for most classes and specs: trade off higher theoretical damage / tanking / healing for an easier rotation that might just mean higher effectiveness for some players.


The problem with Inquisition(at least imo) is not that it is hard to manage, it is that Holy Power generation is so damn random that you are sometimes having to refresh early because you don't know if it will last till you get 3 HP again. Sometimes you will be at 3HP with less then 10 sec on the buff. Your then oleft with a choice to refresh at 8 or so seconds, and effectively loose out on 8sec, or wait to see if you get a DP proc so you can refresh on time. However, if you don't get that proc, you end up having inquisition drop off. A glyph that increases its duration but decreases its damage doesn't solve that fundamental problem.

This is the reason why a glyph will most likely not be needed in MoP, and if it did, and comes at a theoretical DPS loss, it will not be taken. In MoP it wil be much easier to manage Inquisition because HP will not be so reliant on a terrible RNG chance.

In fact managing Inquisition probably wont be so bad when you have the T13 two piece. Now the glyph may still have some purpose for very weak players. If the rotation is really that tough that you take a large decrease in theoretical DPS because your terrible, then A, the rotation is to hard to begin with, or B, the player is just that bad and should probably a different class.

Again i don't think the problem with managing inquisition is one of exceptional/bad players, the problem is in the horrible RNG nature of Holy Power. Too much of Rets Holy Power is derived from RNG! The changes you have proposed for MoP, and the latest 2 piece , seem to show that you are aware of how terrible the Ret model is atm. Honestly i wish you guys would of experimented with upcoming Ret two piece in Firelands or as a talent in the 4.2 PTR, so that maybe it would be part of a talent in 4.3. It would of also given you a better look at whether something like this proposed glyph is needed.

EDIT: another Problem with Inquisition is the fact that CS does not get refreshed on a Dodge or Parry, like energy is refreshed on a dodge or parry of Sinister Strike. This makes HP generation even more random on those encounters where you have to attack from in front at parts or for the whole duration of the encounter. It is fat to punishing a mechanic compared to all other melee DPS and this is something that you should pass on to the rest of the Devs.
Edited by Snitzngiggle on 11/11/2011 8:56 PM PST
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87 Night Elf Death Knight
5360
11/11/2011 08:40 PMPosted by Lamprey
I do like the idea of other TV refreshing the duration of inquisition.
That defeats the whole point of even having Inq. If you're going to passively maintain your 30% damage buff, they can just roll it into your abilities directly.

The point of Inq is to give you choices to make about your HP spending. That in and of itself is great. The problem is, the pacing of CPs is rigid and frustrating and the "reward" for remembering Inq is passive and mostly invisible outside Recount. I suspect that makes it feel like a chore for many people.

edit: just read Ruiizu's post 2 above me, and it's true, inquisition, slice and dice and savage roar are all abilities that I would not consider fun.
I don't understand the hate on SnD — I love SnD. You pop it on and suddenly your character starts swinging faster than the speed of light and number spam starts scrolling by even faster. It's visceral and satisfying, you can SEE it doing something.

I sort-of understand the frustration with Inq, although I don't personally mind it THAT much — it does make numbers way bigger, and eveyone likes numbers, right?

I definitely understand the hate on Savage Roar though. It is quite possibly the most boring and unsatisfying player ability in the game.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
3585
Bad idea because it completely ignores the social side of the equation.

Think about this from a PUG/snobbism perspective.

You are now giving Paladins a red flag that says "I don't know how to play my class to its maximum effectiveness." Now when people are joining Looking for Raid, someone can point out "oh look, Glyph of Icantplay, votekick! lrn2pally noob"

In fact, I would guess that some pallys would be calling for people to kick the other pallys to ensure they have a better chance at gear. It wouldn't even matter if the pally with this glyph DOES do empirically better DPS than a bad pally without it: by having this glyph you are advertising "I'm not as good as I could be"

Find me one person on WoW willing to say that in a PUG or non-friendship situation. It's tantamount to asking for a carry.

As a death knight, I already deal with the fact that if I genuinely make a mistake as a tank, I suffer for it because I'm the manual-transmission tank and I might screw up sometimes and cause a wipe. I might get blamed for bad Death Strike timing, even if it was actually a healer asleep at the wheel. Unlike the automatic-trasmission block-capped warrior who just stands there and gets 30% less damage off the top and when they die, it's assumed they did their job by showing up geared.

So no, this is a bad idea. From a nerd number crunching developer perspective, it makes sense. From a social, I'm just trying to PUG/new to the game perspective, it's a bulls-eye target for people to look down on someone.

If you really want to do this, add some token utilty, however slight. Then it would also be worth having for that utility that could serve a need.
Edited by Deq on 11/11/2011 9:00 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10580
11/11/2011 08:09 PMPosted by Kaivax
The hope by implementing a glyph like this (and we aren’t sure we will, which is why we want feedback) is that your empirical DPS with the glyph may be higher than your theoretical DPS without it. Players who ignored the glyph might do lower DPS (because they are mortal and sometimes fumble with Inquisition) than if they just used the glyph.


Don't bother implementing it then because no one is going to use it. You are asking players to disregard target-dummy damage AND admit that they are mortal and fumble during an encounter? Do you know your player-base at all?

Anyone who uses this glyph will be called a noob.
Edited by Wasselin on 11/11/2011 8:58 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
13180
Just make it 1 min like the cat one, no glyph.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13435
I don't understand the hate on SnD — I love SnD. You pop it on and suddenly your character starts swinging faster than the speed of light and number spam starts scrolling by even faster. It's visceral and satisfying, you can SEE it doing something.

I sort-of understand the frustration with Inq, although I don't personally mind it THAT much — it does make numbers way bigger, and eveyone likes numbers, right?

I definitely understand the hate on Savage Roar though. It is quite possibly the most boring and unsatisfying player ability in the game.

Do you remember totem twisting for Shaman?

That was not fun, either, for much the same reason that managing these buffs isn't. Except these buffs require resources to manage.
Edited by Matuk on 11/11/2011 9:02 PM PST
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