MoP Int Change

100 Orc Shaman
18155
The way we see it, Intellect increases the power of your heals. Spirit (and other regeneration mechanics) replenishes your mana. Having Intellect also increase the size of your mana pool complicates things. It's harder to balance, and feels worse for players trying to balance their character.

While we think the healer mana model for Cataclysm is sound and ultimately accomplished what we wanted, it was still a little too difficult for a on fresh level 85 just going into dungeons, and a little too easy for raiders. Part of that comes from what improved stats do for healers: they get bigger heals (from Intellect), the ability to cast more heals (larger mana pool), and the ability to cast those heals for a longer period of time without running out of mana (as a result of regen). Along the way, the tank and the group are take more damage from tougher bosses, but also have higher damage and higher survivability from improvements to their own gear.

Please remember, the goal isn’t to make healers so resource-starved that they can’t heal. That isn’t fun. The goal is to reward healers who limit how much overhealing they do (in other words, play smarter) for their efforts. You limit your overhealing by doing things like casting a smaller heal when a smaller heal is sufficient, or casting a slower heal when death isn’t imminent, or casting a single-target heal when the group isn’t all taking damage at once. Skillful healers should prosper. When players feel like increasing their skill doesn’t increase their success, they tend to get bored or frustrated.


Other thread is like 2 posts away from cap, figured I'd make another one for more discussion.

This change feels like it would bring healer mana closer to something like an energy bar, imo. Very large energy bar, but still, an energy bar. Int is Agi for bigger heals, Spirit is haste for faster energy regen, and haste is a good way to deplete your energy. I think it would be fun to play with, but in practice, would make healing even more difficult than it currently is when you first hit 85. This is Blizzard though, so hopefully they'll surprise me. :D
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85 Tauren Priest
11575
As a side note, the first part of this thread is here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3566337805
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90 Tauren Druid
15170
11/14/2011 04:47 AMPosted by Shixa
Ugh..this thread started with so much promise. It was really thought provoking until a blue stepped in. Not that it's their fault, but it turned into a !@#$ storm of complaints since.


Valid complaints . .we have been through this every damn expansion now .. with cata ushering in the most painful healing model yet.

This new fad of theirs is worse than what we have now.

So yea we dont trust the devs .. they have given us zero reason to as yet.


The posts turned from discussion to complaining... whether a complaint is valid or not, reiterating it over and over again isn't at all constructive. And devs shouldn't get nearly as much flack as they do. Everyone makes mistakes, and when you think about the scope of this game, theirs has honestly been pretty minimal.

Regarding the MoP change, I completely see where they are coming from! However, I feel that instead of directly impacting the healer, its going to force us to be more group dependent. Correcting dps / tank mistakes with an influx of heals will now be much more difficult. We'll just have to see how it plays out...
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93 Tauren Paladin
18155
I must admit, it's a bit annoying learning a new healing model every expansion. Overall though, I have a lot of fun healing right now, and I've always had fun healing. I trust that however Blizz models healing for MoP, it will be something that will turn out to be enjoyable, once all the kinks are worked out. Try to keep an open mind. :)
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10430
I've tried to keep an open mind, but when guilds like Paragon can 4-heal Heroic Ragnaros the rest of us are punished. I'm just about done with being crippled every patch or upgrade because the same elite few beat an encounter too easily. The majority of guilds don't have the "perfect" raid composition with 4-5 Frost DKs to destroy seeds quickly enough so that healing isn't an issue. And to those who say we don't run out of mana, what encounters have you attempted lately?
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85 Worgen Druid
5650
11/14/2011 05:23 AMPosted by Einnar
I've tried to keep an open mind, but when guilds like Paragon can 4-heal Heroic Ragnaros the rest of us are punished. I'm just about done with being crippled every patch or upgrade because the same elite few beat an encounter too easily. The majority of guilds don't have the "perfect" raid composition with 4-5 Frost DKs to destroy seeds quickly enough so that healing isn't an issue. And to those who say we don't run out of mana, what encounters have you attempted lately?


I run out of mana occasionally, but when I do it's usually because the people in the raid that are responsible for drinking my mana aren't being careful.

Healing is really the only role we have where the level of enjoyment had is directly related to the skill of the other players. Too often game and balance changes are made based on the top 2 or 3% of raiding groups.

I'm one of the weird ones that actually preferred healing in wrath. In fact, I liked it so much that I had a character of every class that could heal - and raided ICC with all of them. It was faster and twitchy. I stayed awake. I used to queue for dungeons just for fun because I knew I was amazing at it. Groups were happy to have me because I could pull them through just about any clusterf--- they could come up with. What, the tank DC'd? It's fine, keep pulling till we get another one.

Now, I just heal with my left hand under my chin and run using both mouse buttons. I can heal the whole night of raiding and clear 6/7 FL heroic using nothing but Rejuvination, Wild Growth and Healing Touch, with the exception of Baelroc, where I use fast-expensive as a means to gain stacks. I did the same thing I did in ICC, but I'm doing it in slow-motion.

I only heal on my druid now, and the only reason I still heal is because we have a tight-knit 10 man group and that's just what my position is. Given half the opportunity, I'd switch to my Rogue in a gnat's heartbeat and ditch this cata healing business for the same reason I don't like playing my mage. It's too slow. I don't like cast bars that last longer than 0.5 seconds or so.

The whole expansion from my healing perspective is that it's gotten terribly drab and boring, and there's really no opportunity anymore for healers to be awesome. The most fun I've had healing since the expansion came out was the other day when I got bored and grabbed my resto shaman (who is level 81 and still has stats / gear from ICC) and healed a few regular dungeons.

It was nice to hear "hey, awesome heals!" again at the end of a dungeon.

Here's to hoping it gets fun again.
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85 Orc Shaman
5985
I would like to quote a post of the other thread to answer it (i was away in the weekend and couldnt post so im re-reading the thread).

11/12/2011 03:19 AMPosted by Ashunera
I really think this "infinite mana" problem, if it is indeed a problem, is more of a balancing problem than a mechanic problem. If healers have infinite mana, it's because encounters aren't challenging enough to tax healer mana. The solution, then, is to go tweak the encounter, not change the functioning of a stat that's worked that way since vanilla.


The problem here is that healers scale up too well. It's obvious in PvP, for example, where for the first 2 months or so of Cataclysm, healers across the board were terrible, and only became competitive with gear, and are now borderline unkillable and too strong. Basically, they are getting "too much" from somewhere, while starting too weak. Mana from intellect seems like a great place to cut back.

The fact of the matter is, encounters already are balanced around what players are capable of, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND and in the current game the only way to challenge good healers is to make huge aoe damage phases on every boss fight in existence. Beth P2, Rhyo P2, Alys re-ignite, Ragnaros transitions, Majordomo cleaves (not that anyone soaks them anymore) etc. It's getting old for every fight to have this. Healers need to scale up more slowly, so the mana game isn't so punishing for those starting out, but isn't so simple for those who are geared, and so encounter designers don't have to include a phase like this in every fight.

Intellect not providing mana is a good proposed change.

Now, remove raid cooldowns and we'll finally see a triage style healing model that rewards playing well.


NO, DPS scale too well, in PVP healers are strong only because you can stack resilience so that the DPS scaling doesnt hurt you so badly. Take out resilience (so that nothing stops DPS sacaling to show up in their full glory) and the healer wont last 3 seconds. Also, healers might be hard to kill, but healers cant kill anything higher than a creep alone. There is a reason why tanks and dps can solo old content and healers cant.

The problem is not intellect giving mana. We ARE NOT SCALING TOO WELL. WE ARE THE ROLE THAT SCALES WORSE OF THE 3.

Intellect not giving mana will make me and many other healers leave.
Edited by Gromahk on 11/14/2011 7:21 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10580
11/14/2011 05:21 AMPosted by Shixa
Then we got the abomination that is cata and the forced triage healing that didn't work because the encounter design boys were still in wrath mode.


They are in wrath mode because healing is still in wrath mode. Because we have too many sources of regen. Because we get regen automatically since intellect provides just as much regen as spirit. The only way they can challenge healers with too much regen is wrath-mode.

11/14/2011 05:21 AMPosted by Shixa
Being forced into spam healing due to poor encounter design is not fun ...Blizzard needs to seriously consider if they need to change the healing model again or if all they need to do is tweak how the current one works.


That's what they are doing. They like the direction they were going and need to tweak it a little bit to make it work. By making intellect increase the size of our heals and spirit increase our regen.
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85 Night Elf Druid
12655
In Wrath (current content) if people stood in bad they died. Right away. In Cata, they often might not die. But then 20 seconds later, an AoE pulse kills them. (WTF healer), or we use a lot of mana to get them back up to survive the pulse, then 2 minutes later we run out of mana (WTF healer)

Tanks who don't properly use their cooldowns will force healers to use more mana, eventually running them OoM (WTF healer). DPS who don't put out enough output will drag fights on too long, running healers OoM (WTF healer).
^QFT, continues below
11/14/2011 03:03 AMPosted by Karmaze
But if you want us to eat this, we need to be reassured that the encounter design and systems are going to work together in such a way as NOT to make pretty much everything look and feel like healer fail. We need to know, in advance, how tanks and DPS are going to be punished..directly and obviously.. for failure.
^this
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11910
11/14/2011 05:21 AMPosted by Shixa
Making all healing specs run off spirit regen and removing all regen based on int would be far better than static mana pools and spirit stacking.


So if they do that, we'll be forced to stack spirit anyways.

If they want us to care about Spirit again, they can start by fixing the !@#$ty loot table in FL and put some actual healing gear there, especially for priests.
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85 Orc Shaman
5985
Then we got the abomination that is cata and the forced triage healing that didn't work because the encounter design boys were still in wrath mode.


They are in wrath mode because healing is still in wrath mode. Because we have too many sources of regen. Because we get regen automatically since intellect provides just as much regen as spirit. The only way they can challenge healers with too much regen is wrath-mode.

Being forced into spam healing due to poor encounter design is not fun ...Blizzard needs to seriously consider if they need to change the healing model again or if all they need to do is tweak how the current one works.


That's what they are doing. They like the direction they were going and need to tweak it a little bit to make it work. By making intellect increase the size of our heals and spirit increase our regen.


I disagree.

They said spike damage and heavy aoe were gone.

Then i go to raid and face Halfus. When the fight is explained is: Ok guys, heavy spike damage on the tanks with healing reduction (really Blizzard...), small avoidable aoe come from the dragon flying and an aoe must be interrupted (ok, avoidable and interruptable, they didnt break what they said with this) and after 50% he starts stunning while doing raid wide aoe that must be healed and fast because you will be stuned and we will get another aoe soon (seriously blizzard?).

No, they didnt design the fight like Wrath because of the healing done, they desing them like this first and then we got the ability to spam a little more, apparently they can't desing fights without spike damage and heavy aoe.

Healing is in "wrath mode" (we arent in wrath mode, paladins cant spam flash heal, shamans cant spam HS, etc not matter how much you like to exxagerate) because its needed for the desing of the fights, even when they promised it wouldn't be like it.

I'm ok with it, we are used to. I'm not ok with yet another change in healing, i wont put up with it.
Edited by Gromahk on 11/14/2011 8:54 AM PST
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90 Gnome Priest
9950
Did I read this right? Are they balancing us around 5 man heroics, and thinking that because we're overpowered compared to a fresh 85 in blues, there's a problem? If that's the case raiding in MOP sounds boring. No increase in difficulty as you progress through tiers is the only way to make it so a healer in blues is essentially on the same level as a healer in highest tier gear. Kinda makes it sound like they should just release the entire xpac in one go and we have the years to choose what to raid and when if that's the case because progression wouldn't come into play. If there's no progression we shouldn't have to wait to be able to see the whole storyline. I hope I'm wrong about their intention
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85 Night Elf Priest
14935
11/14/2011 09:09 AMPosted by Cazmilla
Did I read this right? Are they balancing us around 5 man heroics, and thinking that because we're overpowered compared to a fresh 85 in blues, there's a problem? If that's the case raiding in MOP sounds boring.


It doesn't sound boring per se, it just sounds like it's potentially not going to turn out the way Blizzard hopes it will.

Cata healing model early launch: stressful healing scenarios due to the triage healing model and healers being unable to cover dps/tank errors in early heroics. Healing improves over the course of the expansion with healer buffs and improved gear.

MoP suggested healing model: potentially stress-free healing at the beginning of the expansion due to intellect and mana pool being independent of one another; potentially very stressful healing scenarios in raids/as the expansion progresses due to mana pools staying the same over the course of an expansion (while raid bosses hit harder).


Ugh..this thread started with so much promise. It was really thought provoking until a blue stepped in. Not that it's their fault, but it turned into a !@#$ storm of complaints since.


I feel bad because I was a part of the qq train, and I hardly ever qq. I know Blizz employees get enough of that on the forums. That being said, this new suggested healing model seems at best no better than our current model and at worst a very bad idea.

After thinking about it, I'm willing to give Blizzard a chance on this one despite my skepticism. But I am indeed skeptical.
Edited by Aenwyn on 11/14/2011 9:46 AM PST
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8 Dwarf Priest
0
the reason the frequency of complaints increases after a blue post is because players have the hope (however faint) they might actually get listened to.

a "discussion" can appear to be more positive before a blue post occurs largely due to the CJF (circle jerk factor)
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85 Gnome Priest
12230

This change feels like it would bring healer mana closer to something like an energy bar, imo. Very large energy bar, but still, an energy bar. Int is Agi for bigger heals, Spirit is haste for faster energy regen, and haste is a good way to deplete your energy. I think it would be fun to play with, but in practice, would make healing even more difficult than it currently is when you first hit 85. This is Blizzard though, so hopefully they'll surprise me. :D


That's sorta what I said in the original thread. We'll be working with something that looks like a blue energy bar.

Energy bar. Really? -.-

Theoretically, it'll work, I really don't like it. It's another overhaul of healing which we have to relearn (again), for one, when we already did for cata. And at the end of MoP we'll prolly be looking at a massively fluctuating 'blue energy bar' because of the high output needed and higher spirit. I don't like the idea of that.

Really if we are going to go to this change, why doesn't blizz just recolor the bar from blue to yellow and leave it at that? It's exactly the same mechanics.

Compared to that, I'd prefer to have the 'massive mana pool, relatively slow regen' system so I can heal, look at what I have left, and just work from there.
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100 Night Elf Druid
15920
the reason the frequency of complaints increases after a blue post is because players have the hope (however faint) they might actually get listened to.

a "discussion" can appear to be more positive before a blue post occurs largely due to the CJF (circle jerk factor)


Blizzard actually listens to a lot of the forum qq and adjusts things accordingly. A good deal of their recent changes are due to player qq or player request (MMR reset next patch is the most recent example).

I don't necessarily agree w/some or even most of Blizzard's decisions but they do listen to the playerbase, which is often very fickle.
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