Raid healing is more stressful now.

85 Blood Elf Paladin
6535

This healing change has nothing to do with "the stat squish". "The stat squish" is an imaginary problem that could be solved with decimals, number truncation or just proportionately nerfing everyone.


Correct. The squish is just one proposed solution to the problem of unwieldy large numbers. If they choose to use that solution, the developers will have to re-balance a whole lot of encounters and character power at different levels. Having a fixed resource (mana pool) just makes this simpler.

On the other hand, if healer spirit is required to survive dungeon encounters, there will have to be sufficient gear with that stat on it starting at around level 10. Given how squirrelly the low-level itemization is on boss drops and quest rewards, there's some work to do there.

The healing change is based on the perception that...actually, I'm not sure why this change is supposedly taking place. Because healing is too easy? If that's true (which I don't think it is), that's more a function of encounter design, not having "too much" mana.


The healing change is proposed to separate the functionality of two stats which are supposed to be different. Right now, because regeneration mechanics work better on larger mana pools, intellect is the most valuable stat for both healing throughput and endurance (via regen and starting reserve).

Having a fixed size mana pool makes spirit the sole way to improve mana regeneration, and therefore a much more interesting stat. Interesting is good.

I'm not sure why people are worried about this.
Edited by Sithra on 11/15/2011 3:31 PM PST
100 Draenei Shaman
12425
I'm a bit confused about a lot of peoples reactions here. People keep talking about how various healing models and how one expansion was better than another (as far as it relates to changes coming in 5.0).

GC isn't talking about healing models. Fixing mana size will have no effect on whatever healing model they choose to go with. They can fix the mana size and change or keep the healing model however they choose.

GC's comments have to do with properly separating int and spi. All he's saying is that, if done right, the separation will allow them to properly model character growth in the next exp and future exp's to create a more linear growth as opposed to the exponential growth we see now. This allows more predictive modeling and better raid/dungeon designs. Read his comments, seriously, that's all he's talking about.

Fact of the matter is that if any role shows exponential growth during an expansion then all other classes must be modeled the same or you have balance issues. A lot of what has been discussed about 5.0 by the dev's makes me think they are trying to move to a linear growth model (which makes a lot of sense). This is simply something they have to do to make it happen. It has nothing to do with healing "models" as people seem to think
Edited by Leobenn on 11/15/2011 3:31 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
5745
I don't feel anyone here can make a meaningful post about this topic. The problem is the change to how Intelligence works is being made in conjunction with the overhaul in talents, the redefinition of specs, and the possible implementation of "The Great Squish."

We are trying to offer input into something for which we have no reference points. Let's not complain about the meal before the menu has been printed.


Actually, I play another MMO where the caster/healer class has a resource called 'stamina.' All the classes abilities are expensive and that bar is set at 110 stamina. Combat plays out exactly like a rogue in wow. Healing/dmg spells are expensive enough to completely drain the stam bar every few casts, yet the bar regens fast enough so that there is always enough resources to keep people out of danger of dying, or to put the nail in the coffin on the bad guys.

The other aspec of the class was that they also relied on melee attacks (which didn't cost any resources) as a primary source of damage. Magic abilities only supplemented that.

I don't think the concept would work nearly as well in wow seeing as how casters/healers do not melee at all. In all honesty, it doesn't matter what they decide to do. The only way people are going to be happy with it is if they aren't forced to pay attention to their resource bar.

As soon as you guys assume that a good healing model requires 'intelligent use of resources' you are taking all the fun out of the role.
85 Blood Elf Priest
9495



Who are these people you speak of?I'm sorry did you know all those people that quit and why they quit? The game has changed no one is denying that but its not going back to what it was and if you want it back to what it was well then i dont know what to tell you. If their weren't changes to the game then we would all still be in Vanilla pulling our hair out in 40 mans. WoW is ever changing and it wont stop changing til Blizzard lets it die and who knows when that is. When you have had a game going for how long now? And if you have never taken time off you what have been playing for almost 6-7 years. That is a long time and just imagine if the game never changed then how many people would have quit years ago because it just got old and repetitive. So like always people making comments like this calling for someone to quit becuase they more than likely dont agree with a small aspect of the game. That makes sense.


A: I didn't ask him to quit.
B: I understand that some change is needed during the life of a game.
C: A lot of people have flat out left, there's no denying this.
D: If something isn't fun then people will leave it alone and not do it. Of all the feedback given this is the one thing that GC seems to listen to the least. Or at best his idea of fun is wildly different from those who have already left. Let's see what happens with the subs numbers next quarter and if the pick up dramatically then i will gladly take back all my words.


Fun is subjective. this game is subjective. And even if the numbers fall further down it still does not prove your point. All it does is say that people left the game, it dosent mean that GC is unattached to the community. He has to look at the whole picture and not just the little things that everyone focus' in on and forgets that it all goes to a larger picture that people have already talked about in this thread. Who are all these people that arent having fun, if your not having fun then quit i dont get it. Its just that simple. Coming on here and talking like you know why people quit and you know the Dev teams thoughts dosent make sense to me.
Community Manager
Hey all, as always we greatly appreciate the questions, concerns, and constructive feedback. We are paying attention to the discussion here and I have a bit more from Ghostcrawler to channel for you. We really do want to make sure we're communicating our plans clearly and in a way that will help everyone understand the ultimate goals and decisions being made. We also want to make it clear that none of these proposed changes are being done to cause anyone distress or make anyone miserable. So, to that end, here's some additional follow-up. As always, we welcome constructive feedback. Please refrain from forum code of conduct violations or derailing the thread.

A change like this would be huge and would require a massive reworking of a lot of classes. Things like innervate and divine plea would be significantly devalued since they wouldn't scale not to mention the mastery of Arcane Mages (to use a non-healer example).


It’s actually not that massive a reworking. Innervate and Divine Plea for example already use a % of max mana, so they would stay exactly the same. Innervate is 5 or 15% of max mana and Divine Plea is 12% of max mana. Arcane would actually benefit from the change, because currently the spec is harder to play when mana pools are low and has too easy a time cranking out huge numbers when mana pools are high, which makes it hard for other mage specs to keep up in later tiers without constant tweaking.

Honestly, we don’t think a lot of players will even notice the change unless they are really in tune with how much mana their character has. A lot of players learn that say Greater Heal takes up a chunk of their bar of X length and they have an idea on how many more heals they can cast before they run OOM. In other words, they already think in terms of bar length and percentage, not absolute number. The biggest differences will be that your mana bar won’t grow from 100,000 in 4.0 to 120,000 in 4.2 and mana-pool-based regen mechanics won’t grow more and more dominant over Spirit-based regen mechanics as your gear improves (and we can certainly boost Spirit-based regeneration if needed so that healers don’t feel nerfed).

I would point out the shaman's talent Telluric Currents. This talent scales mana regen with damage done. Since Int increases damage done, this talent allows more regen for better stats. With low end gear the mana regen can be negative since the cost of the spell outweighs the mana regenerated. With high end gear the opp set can be true.


Yes, good catch. That is an example of an Intellect-scaling regen mechanic. It would be easy to convert it to something like the paladin mechanic of Judgement granting X% of your total mana.

Complex for you to balance or complex for players to understand? I don't I can believe any player has a hard time getting what intellect or what spirit does now.


Well, both ultimately, but we meant the latter. Players probably understand generally that Intellect increases spell power, mana pool and crit. What is harder to understand is that Spirit is a good regen stat up to a point and depending on your class, but that Intellect “double dips” because it makes your heals larger and increases the benefit of non-Spirit based regen, such as Divine Plea, and at a certain point, Intellect as a regen stat is more powerful than Spirit as a regen stat. It’s not exactly rocket surgery, but we’re not sure we get a lot of interesting design space out of it. Several players have pointed out that we could make all regeneration mechanics work off of Spirit, and that would be another way to go, but we thought that required even more change. Consider for example that non-healers often have no Spirit but still need to benefit from Divine Plea.

And what makes it such that your large pool can do that? It's not the pool itself, as its size increase only cover a few more casts. No, it's the regeneration that you get from that huge pool. As long as Blizzard increases the Spirit based regen to compensate for the loss (or major nerfing) of Replenishment and other percentage-based regen mechanics the effect will be exactly the same as the current system, though probably not as pronounced (as reducing the extent of the longevity scaling was one thing mentioned as being behind this change).


Well said.

Community Manager
My main concern is that while addressing their goals... they completely let the idea of what is fun for a healer fly right over their heads.


Not at all. “What is fun” is our primary concern. As I pointed out above however, players rarely agree on what is fun and are often on completely opposite sides. If everyone agreed, our jobs would be easy. (And don’t mistake a few dozen or even hundred passionate posts as consensus on anything.)

We don’t think ignoring a resource is fun. For healers, it would just mean using your most powerful spell in every situation, because there is no reason not to do so. Once you aren’t making decisions on the fly, you’re just going through encounter robotically, which doesn’t sound too engaging. On the flip side, content being brutally difficult might not be fun either (though we know it is for at least a small percentage of our players) so we want to make sure you aren’t overly punished for mistakes and make sure mana isn’t so precious that you are spending lots of time idle. As I also said above, we think this change will be smaller than some of you appear to be thinking, which is why I am spending so much effort to try and assuage your concerns.
90 Human Warrior
10380
Having a fixed size mana pool makes spirit the sole way to improve mana regeneration, and therefore a much more interesting stat. Interesting is good.

I'm not sure why people are worried about this.

If abilities and talents are scaling off of a different stat than spirit, then those abilities need to be adjusted to scale off of spirit.

Notice, maximum mana and intellect has absolutely nothing to do with the problem. It's the talents and abilities.

This is why people are so up in arms about this change. It's us not understanding why this change is being made and most importantly the reasons why it's being made.
Edited by Duese on 11/15/2011 3:40 PM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
13090
This healing change has nothing to do with "the stat squish". "The stat squish" is an imaginary problem that could be solved with decimals, number truncation or just proportionately nerfing everyone. The healing change is based on the perception that...actually, I'm not sure why this change is supposedly taking place. Because healing is too easy? If that's true (which I don't think it is), that's more a function of encounter design, not having "too much" mana.



First, play a Resto Shaman in a raid, especially a 10 man heroic raid (though any Firelands raid will suffice). Play it well. Play it borderline perfectly.

Second, play a Holy Paladin in a Firelands raid, any setting will suffice. Play it well. No need to play it borderline perfectly though.

Unless your powers of observation are completely nonexistent, you will notice a very huge disparity in the abilities of each healer, tied primarily to their mana bar. Both are limited in their AoE healing ability, so what really sets the two apart when it comes to overall effectiveness is their mana bar. You should notice that a fight where a Resto Shaman goes completely out of mana is a fight where a Holy Paladin sees the boss die with 50-60% left after having done very comparable amounts of healing. Their regeneration tools (Divine Plea and Judgement of Insight vs. Mana Tide Totem, Telluric Currents and Resurgence) are probably reasonably close in value in blue gear. As time passes, though, and both gain more maximum mana from intellect, a Paladin's mana regeneration will eventually far outweigh that of a Resto Shaman. Because Divine Plea is based on your maximum mana pool, while Resurgence and Mana Tide are based on Crit and Spirit respectively.



The answer is one of two things:

1 - Change Divine Plea (and all other max mana regeneration) to scale from spirit (or some other secondary stat) instead of total mana.

2 - Change Intellect to no longer increase your mana pool.


So what are the pros and cons of each?

1 - While this seems like the more obvious solution, it's also homogenization. Different healing specs should work differently. They are already probably a little too close in the 3-heal system. Normalizing mana regen is harder to do with non fixed mana pools than it would be with fixed mana pools. It also makes Divine Plea useles for Protection and Retribution and will require compensation there.

2 - While this seems like a silly solution considering Intellect has always increased max mana, and characters feel stronger when their max mana increases, it has a lot of positive side effects. One, it allows different healing specs to be different in how their mana regeneration works, but prevents one spec from completely out scaling the other. 2 - for an Arcane Mage for example, increasing intellect in a non static/secure way is problematic as the higher their mana is as a percentage of their maximum, the more benefit they gain from their mastery. When you gain a ton of max mana due to a proc, it just interacts strangely with it. Static intellect, however, is so extremely valuable for them that nothing else matters at all compared to it. Removing max mana increases from intellect solves this problem as well.


While seeing your mana bar increase as you gain intellect, and better gear, seems interesting, it's really just a number and nothing more. A number that causes a lot of problems and its only benefit is "that number is bigger than it was before, I feel stronger!"
When your Heal spell heals for 10,000 instead of 9,500, you'll still feel stronger even if your mana number isn't higher. Static mana not increasing really doesn't take away from that.
Edited by Ashunera on 11/15/2011 3:44 PM PST
90 Human Warrior
10380
Why are talents and abilities that provide regen still scaling off intellect if spirit is supposed to be our regen stat?

I just don't understand.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12550
11/15/2011 03:31 PMPosted by Baeloro
As soon as you guys assume that a good healing model requires 'intelligent use of resources' you are taking all the fun out of the role.


Pray tell, what is this fun that you are referring to? Leaving a paperweight on your Wild Growth key, while posting on Failbook?

The paradigm of challenging healers with damage models is stale, old, and quite frankly, no longer effective.

I don't find it to be either challenging, or fun, to heal up damage that I know is coming, and when. I don't find it to be either challenging, or fun, to provide a stream of efficient heals. I don't find damage/regen cycles to be either challenging, or fun.

Perhaps you do? To each their own.

Riôt
Edited by Riôt on 11/15/2011 3:50 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
11195
My biggest problem, and it has been mentioned by several other posters, is that I am tired of overhauls. I healed on my pally in BC and Wrath and liked it a lot. I had a niche and I was good with that. I prefer to heal.

Cata changed the pally healing model into something I can't stand. Some people like it, some don't. I hated it and could not play him anymore. I went to DPS because healing was in such turmoil at the time. Constant changes and oh the outcry from the healing community. After a some changes came down the pike I tried it again and still hate it.

I did however like the druid healing model. I never healed on him before so I didn't know any better. I like it a lot but here we go again.

I do not play hunters, rogues, DKs and other classes, except cat dps on occasion when I have to, that use the 100 energy, focus etc. bar because I do not like that resource. That is a personal preference and I am not knocking the classes that do. What you are proposing is the same thing as the energy/focus system for healers. You can name it what you want, make the numbers as big as you want, dress it up any way you want but it is still the same system.

As I said I do not care for that resource style so what do I play now? Why are you trying to smash us all into one resource system? Can we not keep some things unique in this game or must we continue to be homogenized into faceless, classless blobs where the only that separates us from everyone else is our name?
90 Draenei Shaman
13090
I think a lot of the negative feeling healers have toward Cataclysm has been a result of the proliferation of raid cooldowns, even though many don't realize it. It marginalizes what you're doing outside of those cooldowns and really doesn't add anything to the game. "I feel strong when tranquility is going" is ultimately the same as saying "I feel weak the rest of the time."

Raid cooldowns NEED TO GO. Then healing will feel good. A change to intellect and mana in this proposed way honestly won't change much outside of improving class balance.
Edited by Ashunera on 11/15/2011 3:54 PM PST
100 Pandaren Priest
17445
If you do go down this road please make our efficient heal (Heal/Nourish etc) actually worthwild to cast. At the beginning of Cataclysm I used it now and then cause my gear sucked and I had mana issues but now it's actually a bad choice to use it as it barely heals anything.

Make it heal for the same amount as flash heal but take a lot longer to cast, or maybe faster then that but heal for slightly less then flash. In it's current state although efficient it's also a giant hps loss.
Edited by Trinko on 11/15/2011 3:55 PM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
13090
If you do go down this road please make our efficient heal (Heal/Nourish etc) actually worthwild to cast. At the beginning of Cataclysm I used it now and then cause my gear sucked and I mana issues but now it's actually a bad choice to use it as it bearly heals anything.

Make it heal for the same amount as flash heal but take a lot longer to cast, or maybe faster then that but heal for slightly less then flash. In it's current state although efficient it's also a giant hps loss.


Look at it this way. Your raid cooldowns are actually your "strong heals" and what people refer to as your strong heals are actually your weak heals, and your weak heals don't really have a place unless you're a Shaman (because you have to due to mana problems). The problem is raid cooldowns. If they cease to exist, the weak heals will have more of a role because raid damage will have to be lower overall to compensate for the fact that you can't press god mode - Tranquility - anymore.

People keep referring to the Burning Crusade golden age of raiding and healing - there were no raid cooldowns then. That's why it felt good.
90 Dwarf Shaman
13645
I can tell you right now that there will be 6 less healers come Mists of Pandaria.

Just from me.

This isn't a type of change you do when you're changing class mechanics as well.

So, I'm level 85 on a class, won't have any actual idea how to play it once MoP hits, and now I have to figure out the best way to gear again?

No. Change classes, leave stats alone. Don't do both. Wait til 5.1 or something for the intellect changes. Give us time to adjust to our new spells and rotations before you throw another thing for us to relearn.
85 Night Elf Priest
9090
11/15/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Nethaera
My main concern is that while addressing their goals... they completely let the idea of what is fun for a healer fly right over their heads.


Not at all. “What is fun” is our primary concern. As I pointed out above however, players rarely agree on what is fun and are often on completely opposite sides. If everyone agreed, our jobs would be easy. (And don’t mistake a few dozen or even hundred passionate posts as consensus on anything.)

We don’t think ignoring a resource is fun. For healers, it would just mean using your most powerful spell in every situation, because there is no reason not to do so. Once you aren’t making decisions on the fly, you’re just going through encounter robotically, which doesn’t sound too engaging. On the flip side, content being brutally difficult might not be fun either (though we know it is for at least a small percentage of our players) so we want to make sure you aren’t overly punished for mistakes and make sure mana isn’t so precious that you are spending lots of time idle. As I also said above, we think this change will be smaller than some of you appear to be thinking, which is why I am spending so much effort to try and assuage your concerns.


I read very well, but also realize the importance of what is said being backed up with what is actually done.

So I read how you hear us about change. Yet here you go again with change.

So I read about how if you need to buff spirit regen you will. But what has history in this game taught us about how long it takes Blizzard to admit a mistake and how it takes even longer to fix it in fact.

So I read how this is not about what your goals are and not about making things easier for you, and how you are not wanting to drain the fun out of the game. But here we are, healers singled out again.

An earlier poster wrote about how tanking was being made easier. But here we go again with nerfing healing.

A Blue post took pains to point out ONLY healers would hurt for mana, but NOT dps. Why are healers your whipping boys.

Now I am not intending to be confrontational, and I am sure I could phrase it more artfully, but in the end, why is it yet again so terribly important to change healing, and why again does it seem that healing is as usual being singled out for second rate gameplay treatment?
Edited by Shyleana on 11/15/2011 4:04 PM PST
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