Raid healing is more stressful now.

85 Draenei Shaman
10680
@Nethaera

If you're still here, will horrible mechanics like Telluric Currents still exist under this new model or will clunky active regeneration models be improved on or forgotten?
85 Blood Elf Priest
10480
It looks like the blues totally missed the most important part of this post.

The main issue here is ending the tier with a fight that requires only 3-4 healers.

Most guilds started the tier with 7 or 8 on the roster so now half of the healers get to sit out on progression.

The problem is that most of the raid damage is avoidable and the dps requirement is so high. We need more fights with damage models like Blood Queen Lanathel or Sindragosa where the raid is taking x amount of damage every second unavoidable so that you cant just bring 3 healers and stack up maximum dps to burn the boss down as fast as possible.
So in short (heh), Blizzard is instituting this change because intelligence is doing too much and they wish the decision between power vs regeneration to be more straight forward. Additionally, Blizzard is concerned that healers are not being efficient enough in their healing.

I believe I understand. However, I feel there is truth in the post below too.

It's a false argument to claim that healers are ignoring their resources right now. Healing's probably the most difficult role in the game atm, with DPS and tanking showing no signs of being brought up to a similar standard of responsibility. There's also a false argument that healers used to care about resources "back in the good ol' days". BC healing consisted of spamming downranked spells ad nauseum - where was this "resource management" during WoW's golden days?
8 Dwarf Priest
0
It's actually not that massive a reworking.


yeah ghostcrawler, we know. we know because people have pointed out already that healers do not scale so well in cata, certainly not as well as dps do, and dps are at least as much a factor on the overall picture of a healer's influence in a dungeon or raid encounter as the healer herself (to use your preferred gender pronoun. higher dps = shorter fights = room for more aggressive healing). basically, that the amount of mana pool a healer gains over the course of an expansion is, by itself, allegedly not a "big deal."

we also know that you guys like the easy way out. changing intellect is just one change to one stat, instead of converting every single max mana ability across mana using classes to function off of spirit.

but here's the thing. you've taken 5 second rule away from us. you've taken away spellpower as a discrete stat (to say nothing of the frustration caused by your announcement that you are now basically bringing it back but only because you are - yet again - taking something else away). you've taken away downranking. you've taken away multiple potions in combat. you've basically taken away crit as a consideration, its hands down the worst stat for every single healer (and off topic, most dps as well). you've taken away so much healing power relative to total health many healers (myself for example) feel very weak compared to how i used to feel pre-cata, and also how i feel compared to the other roles of dps or tank. you're about to take most of a player's influence over their talent selection away.

honestly, even if we agree that the total mana pool increase over an expansion is trivial in some "big picture," that makes it all the more confusing why it becomes the focus of company time and money in a class overhaul. the same argument that says we shouldn't miss such a trivial amount can be applied to say no amount of dev resources should go into taking it away from players, considering all the other fun things that might be added that could only increase customer satisfaction.

does removing another sign of character progression, one players are accustomed to and, i'd wager, at least several hundred thousand out of the millions who play enjoy seeing that number go up stand to improve the game more than if you just leave it alone and fix regen which is the real problem?

has removing a sign of character progression from your players been test demo'ed as providing reasonable and measurable benefits to the game outweighing the negative psychological impacts? or is it being made just because "devs know best" despite devs having been almost entirely recreating this game from scratch the last couple of expansions? are we respected customers or guinea pigs for your sandbox?

are you guys always dead set on taking the easy route even if players don't like it, or do you have some kind of crystal ball that tells you most people will be ok with what you're about to do?
Edited by Kolas on 11/15/2011 4:26 PM PST
85 Goblin Priest
12495
11/15/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Nethaera
We don’t think ignoring a resource is fun. For healers, it would just mean using your most powerful spell in every situation, because there is no reason not to do so.


I've healed on every class in every iteration of WoW and I heavily support the direction that Blizzard would like to move for Intellect. However, I am concerned about this quoted part.

I find that even when ignoring my resource, I can have quite a lot of fun playing the GCD-juggle via triage. It's a bit distressful that - from what I've read - Blizzard's Devs seem to think I, as a healer, only want to care about my mana pool (and therefore spell selection) and that targeting or timing are not only unnecessary but also not fun. I couldn't disagree more, and I'm very hopeful that those elements can be focused on quite a bit more than they have in Cataclysm which has been an extremely disappointing single-faceted stint in popularizing healing.
Edited by Lebedot on 11/15/2011 4:22 PM PST
85 Night Elf Priest
9090
Considering how healing already suffers from the numbers taken to raids being reduced so yet more dps can get in, and how while all the other roles are being made easier if anything, but healing is again the bullseye target, why would healers see any future as a healer in this game?
85 Draenei Shaman
5030
I will confess to not having read the entire thread, however I have been following Neth's posts with interest today. I can't profess to be an elite healer, I've only recently completed T11 ( on my horde shaman), and that was normal mode, even. I did, however, not see one thing mentioned that I was hoping might be addressed today- the concept of power increasing as gear increases. One of my favorite things in this game is seeing my mana pool go up.

Odd, no?

It's a sense of satisfaction. I can compare to myself when i first started at say 73k - 78k mana, and think "Wow, i've gotten waaaay more powerful since then"

Though i understand Int will go up, and your numbers will too, as a shaman this is mostly meaningless. My mastery and double crits already make the numbers ridiculous, even at low gear levels.


I know I'm just one person amidst a sea of many, but I greatly enjoy the perceived increase in power from having my mana pool increase. I won't quit the game, I'll still play and enjoy regardless of what happens. I think it'll just be a bit less fun.

90 Pandaren Rogue
10475
11/15/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Nethaera
As I also said above, we think this change will be smaller than some of you appear to be thinking, which is why I am spending so much effort to try and assuage your concerns.


It's not going to be a small change. In and of itself, there's a lot more complexity that players are picking up on and telling you isn't trivial. Having a fixed mana pool is effectively another rage/energy/focus/runic power bar. Whether this is fixed by level or by some arbitrary number decided (100 or 1000000), the end result is the same.

While the spells have been changed for a long time to use % of base mana, the amount of 'resource' a spell takes now diminishes as a person's mana increases (due to int). Obviously, this is a good reason you want to change it. For the moment, I'll buy that argument.

But, to say it is a small or a smaller change than the player base is perceiving suggests an omnipresence you cannot obtain. The player base understands that a spell will always take % of of their mana - regardless of gear level with the proposed changes - and that is fundamentally a different game than the one they're playing now. I understand the need to downplay changes, but the playerbase is correct to be concerned - and even more so that it isn't the same game they have been playing for a while now. As a result, some will ignore this change, others will accept and move on, and you'll also lose people who don't like how you're making such a radical departure from the way things have worked since release. You always run that risk.

That said, I understand completely the necessity for the changes. I also disagree with them. Thankfully, I switched to a class unaffected by it long before I heard of the proposed changes. Not everyone will be so gracious. It might be in your best interests to revisit this idea especially as much of the feedback is centering around the idea that few support it and most detest it. Feedback, as you say, is always welcome.
100 Night Elf Hunter
8965
With an even easier mode of raiding, and dungeons/questing that will likely still be mostly perfunctory for most players, will it really even matter what they do in regards to Spirit?

Spirit only matters if regenerating mana matters. With how ridiculous content at this lowest difficulty level will be, how much can it possibly matter to have strong spirit? Forget it's correlation to Int. People will get enough spirit just randomly. Int will be the only stat that matters for 'effective enough' gameplay for healers.

You've kinda chopped up your game so much that unless you're secretly trying to find some super-fun healing stat management meta game for people who are going to bother with the 3rd mode (hard difficulty, i guess it would be called), this is mostly much ado about nothing.

A better focus might be actually getting people to see how efficiency actually works in the healing game, so that the driving nature of positive feedback known as "getting better" were still inherent in the gameplay itself, and not all this concern over numbers, metrics and players 'feelings'. For many of the people in your modern playerbase, they are closer to slot machine players than anything. And what do you think that mentality will say when you ask them what they want? "WE WANT THE MACHINE TO MAKE US WIN MORE!!!"

85 Tauren Paladin
6325
After thinking about it a lot, and reading this forum, Raid Cds need to go. This is what causes healers to be so godly. We can afford to just let the raid get really low and then just pop a tranq and all is well in the world again. Aura mastery is also insanely overpowered, coupled with wings and a divine plea I would argue that it does even more "healing" then a single tranq. This also get brought further into light when dps can help out with raid cds. AMZ, Boomy Tranq, etc.

To make matters worse look at the tank set bonuses in 4.3. Listen to the top guilds. When they say these encounters are most likely impossible with out tanks having their 4 set, doesn't something seem broken?

90 Blood Elf Priest
13445
11/15/2011 04:24 PMPosted by Tigrian
It's a sense of satisfaction. I can compare to myself when i first started at say 73k - 78k mana, and think "Wow, i've gotten waaaay more powerful since then"


I agree with you Tigrian, but there will always be good ways to measure how much more powerful you have gotten through gear upgrades. For instance, with the proposed changes, one should be able to look at the scaling of his regen to see how much more powerful he has gotten. Back when I used to play a fire mage in the MC days, I used to stack Crit and use that to judge how powerful I was.

As far as the healing changes go, I am completely fine with a static mana pool as long as the spirit will cover the difference. However, I do NOT want Cata's healing strategy to change (ie long, efficient heals vs short, inefficient heals vs large heals).

I also don't get the arguments that tie the difficulty of healing with the raid leader dropping a healer in favor of a dps. I feel that if healing were to get more difficult, the opposite would be true - a healer could not be dropped if the raid were to hope to succeed. Sure over time, a healer could possibly be dropped, but I'm not sure there are great ways to combat this. I would be more than happy to accept an increased difficulty in healing to keep me from losing my raid spot.
Edited by Velyx on 11/15/2011 4:48 PM PST
100 Gnome Priest
18580
It looks like the blues totally missed the most important part of this post.

The main issue here is ending the tier with a fight that requires only 3-4 healers.

Most guilds started the tier with 7 or 8 on the roster so now half of the healers get to sit out on progression.

The problem is that most of the raid damage is avoidable and the dps requirement is so high. We need more fights with damage models like Blood Queen Lanathel or Sindragosa where the raid is taking x amount of damage every second unavoidable so that you cant just bring 3 healers and stack up maximum dps to burn the boss down as fast as possible.


This is a huge issue, I dislike telling one of my healers to sit or switch to dps (his dps isn't that great because all his gear is healing). Yet more and more fights have high dps requirements and low to medium healing requirements.

In 10m, Baleroc (before the nerf) was impossible with 3 healers to beat the enrage timer which was also the same with Rhyolith, and Alys is just so much easier with 2 healers. Heroic rag also impossible to beat the enrage timer with 3 healers. Telling tanks to go dps is one thing and is annoying as it is but asking a healer to go dps not because there is no tank swap mechanic but because the enrage timers (or amount of adds to kill) requires extra dps is getting annoying. I feel real sorry for 25m who have ask more then 1 person to dps (or bench for another dps). All fights should require 6 healers min (or 3 in 10m).

A possible reason to this as others have mentioned is raid CD's. Although they are very nice to have they can be used during spikey periods to drop a healer and bring another dps.

The other obvious reason is insane dps requirements without high healing requirements.
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