Raid healing is more stressful now.

85 Worgen Druid
4435
This change is completely unnecessary, Blizzard I have healed on every class in this game and this move on intellect is not a smart one. The general community is vastly opposed to your proposition, so why would you make more people unhappy? One of the things that has been going south with WoW is the fact that the healing model and game in general gets drastically changed very often. There is virtually no one that is complaining about the healing model at the moment, and it is definitely not hard for fresh 85s. At the begining of this expansion there was loads of QQ about how hard the new heroics were, and how hard healing was, but in reality it was very easy if you made the correct choices. It might be hard for fresh 85s at the moment, but only if they are doing something very wrong. Players that do the right things get rewarded, and ones that dont struggle with mana. As far as gearing up during an expansion, at the moment you still very much have to manage your spell usage, you cant spam the entire encounter and it end very well.

There is barely anyone that is excited about this change, and I beg you blizzard to not go through with it, at least give spirit the ability to increase your mana pool slightly (Possibly less and intellect does today) and still give you mana regeneration.

*Healing is at a very good state at the moment, probably the best it ever has been*

You should start listening to the community, instead of making so many unnecessary changes. There is a vast amount of players that are excited about MoP, and I am as well, but plenty that are quitting because of it. Listen to this and heed the warning the players are giving about everything.

Thanks

Visuh

90 Pandaren Warrior
5685
I'm really, really skeptical about this.

Blizzard is planning to do a similar "reboot" of healers in mists that they did in cata, the only difference being that they're hoping you'll never reach a point where you can just spam whatever spell you want.

I'm predicting a similar situation as the beginning of t11, where a healer in all blues walks into his first raid expecting to do "triage healing" and then sees their raid's health plummet in a matter of seconds to mechanics like magma spew. So said blue-geared healer throws triage out the window and starts spamming prayer of healing hoping that his mana pool lasts longer than the boss's.

If you guys are going to change healing mechanics around once again, you better make sure to actually design the encounters around this concept as well. Healers were buffed numerous times after the release of cata because encounter design still felt like it was on the wrath model for raid damage.
Edited by Octahedron on 11/15/2011 4:47 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
12225
This is my wish for healing:Stop changing stuff.Just leave it alone. Back away from the design board.Go work on a new non-combat pet questing system or something. Or come up with someway for people to get raid gear from farming herbs.I absolutely loved my Mage prior to Cata. The constant yo-yo's of which spec is better in Cata drove me crazy and I got tired of it, so I swapped to a paladin so I wouldn't be asked to respec every week depending on which Dev got his way in the nerfs/buffs department that week.Leave well enough alone. It's fine now. It was fine before. Just stop messing with it.


How many times can I hit the "Like" button? If agreement was gearscore, you'd be a God!

It isn't that I care how hard or how easy; just let me learn it, us it, and deal with it. No... there will be the change, then the gap while the raid leaders (and PuG groups) learn I'm not broken. About the time I can establish myself again, along comes the nerf bat or a buff and relearning my own limitations again, then everybody thinking I'm broken or can heal everything solo, then we all get settled into some realistic expectaions and here comes Blizzard with their "better idea" to balance healing again... and for what? The next expansion I change gear, instance mechanics, and raid grouping--and another round of balancing...

As long as there is a dedicated healer class virtually everyone will always search the forums to find the most efficient way to do what needs to be done--or quit playing a healer until it's fixed--either way one spell (or 3) will be better than another and comprise the majority of our healing, because players are creatures of habit. If spells are closely balanced, we will pick one and use it because switching requires thought--and we won't*. If there is a clear benefit to picking one over another, then again, there will be one spell (or 3) that comprise the bulk of the HPS going out.

*Science tell us that the purpose of thinking is to breakdown a complex action into a series of simpler actions that no longer requires thought. Who could--would--type, ski, or drive if it was always as difficult as it was the first time?
Edited by Amoque on 11/15/2011 4:51 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
12390
I read very well, but also realize the importance of what is said being backed up with what is actually done.

So I read how you hear us about change. Yet here you go again with change.

So I read about how if you need to buff spirit regen you will. But what has history in this game taught us about how long it takes Blizzard to admit a mistake and how it takes even longer to fix it in fact.

So I read how this is not about what your goals are and not about making things easier for you, and how you are not wanting to drain the fun out of the game. But here we are, healers singled out again.

An earlier poster wrote about how tanking was being made easier. But here we go again with nerfing healing.

A Blue post took pains to point out ONLY healers would hurt for mana, but NOT dps. Why are healers your whipping boys.

Now I am not intending to be confrontational, and I am sure I could phrase it more artfully, but in the end, why is it yet again so terribly important to change healing, and why again does it seem that healing is as usual being singled out for second rate gameplay treatment?


I agree. I've been healing since shortly after I started playing this game in BC when I was told by my guild master "we need healers you should try one out". Ever since then I've been mainly a healer, and I enjoyed it. In BC I was a priest, then in wrath I switched to Shaman, then cata came out and I switched to druid. Each expansion you guys change my favorite class so I have to switch to another one to continue thinking the game is fun.

Now I'm in love with my druid and you're yet again changing healing, and as others have pointed out, it seems like druids will get the short end of this stick since most of our hots overheal (and as a raid healer I can't afford to use nourish very often at all as it is slow and someone will die while waiting for it--I've tried).

As for this "healers aren't watching their resources" comment...what healers is blizzard talking about? Every healer I've ran with in Cata has been concerned about their mana and actively watching it and adjusting things to make sure they don't go oom every boss fight. When raiding I'm watching all the healers mana pools since I'm also the raid leader and I'm making sure the dps are avoiding extra dmg, everyone's using a lock cookie, etc.

It's hard enough learning new boss fights, especially with the upcoming changes to our classes that you guys have planned, but now you want to add in healer mana changes? That seems to be overkill and will lead to alot of frustration and people quitting the game...again.

I also agree with Shyleana about why is it healers keep getting these changes to make their jobs more difficult while tanks get theirs made easier? Tanks get the shortest queue times, they can bail on a dungeon and immediately get a new one, and if they die during a dungeon they blame the healer.

Healing is stressful enough, and can be fun at times right now. Why would you want to mess that up? Don't you guys want to keep players? Don't you want MORE people healing, not less?

Intellect and spirit aren't confusing to anyone who has half a mind and can read their talents. So really, what's the point in this change other than to nerf us at a time when we're not needing nerfed? Or are you guys basing this on people in heroics gear who aren't struggling over anything anymore at this point? Because being in normal modes and not being completely hardcore (you know, where people make tiny mistakes), we're watching our mana and not tabbed out looking at facebook.
Edited by Andalya on 11/15/2011 4:50 PM PST
18 Worgen Hunter
50
I have two concerns with the proposed mana changes.

Part of the fun of getting better gear as a caster is watching your maximum mana go up. Taking that away kind of takes away from one aspect of your character growth.

The other is that if mana just becomes a static "You have X mana at level Y.", it makes it not too much different from something like a hunter's focus or a rogue's energy, except that instead of a max of 100, you'll have a max of, let's say, 100,000. Or 10,000. Or even 100 like the others if you wanted, as casters already operate under mana costs of a % of base mana.
90 Draenei Shaman
13090
Aura Mastery used well does more effective healing than pretty much anything, because damage you don't take is the best kind of healing.


Bad for the game healer or raid cooldowns:

Tranquility
Aura Mastery
Divine Hymn
Divine Guardian
All 4.3 4-set tank bonuses
Rallying Cry
Anti-Magic Zone
Power Word: Barrier

Mindless raid damage reduction or healing throughput. No player skill involved, they only serve to make you feel weak the 90% of the time you aren't able to cast them.


Good for the game healer or raid cooldowns:

Avenging Wrath
Tree of Life
Divine Favor
Guardian of Ancient Kings
Power Infusion
Shaman 4.3 set bonuses

All of these bring player skill into account. You still have to choose heals and play well to maximize their effect, and none of them are "I win buttons".


On the fence about:

Spirit Link Totem

The health evening effect is a unique form of utility that can be situationally useful (healing unhealable targets, resurrecting with a non glyphed rebirth combat res) and occasionally a double edged sword (bringing a tank's health low enough to get him killed by the next hit). Without the damage reduction, it's a cool ability. With it, it's just another raid cooldown that's weaker than the rest 90% of the time.
85 Night Elf Druid
5745
11/15/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Nethaera
We don’t think ignoring a resource is fun. For healers, it would just mean using your most powerful spell in every situation, because there is no reason not to do so. Once you aren’t making decisions on the fly, you’re just going through encounter robotically, which doesn’t sound too engaging. On the flip side, content being brutally difficult might not be fun either (though we know it is for at least a small percentage of our players) so we want to make sure you aren’t overly punished for mistakes and make sure mana isn’t so precious that you are spending lots of time idle. As I also said above, we think this change will be smaller than some of you appear to be thinking, which is why I am spending so much effort to try and assuage your concerns.


Except for the fact that when you are limited to which spells you can use (because you will go OOM and not be able to heal anymore) it takes away the choice of having spells in the first place.

I don't like Nourish. I am 100% sure there isn't a single resto druid that does. Spamming Nourish to 'conserve mana' is a chore and it sucks that we have to do so. It takes the choices out of healing.

As a resto druid, I expect to be able to use my entire spell book liberally, because for me it's not about just spamming my biggest heal. It's about being able to use the right heal at the right time effectively. If I can't use the right heal because I am too busy conserving mana as I spam Nourish, there's something fundamentally wrong with that healing model.

When is it supposed to be okay to use my big heals? When is it supposed to be okay to use my quick heals?

Additionally, there are fewer healers than there are other raid/party members. There will never be a situation where a healer can heal everyone constantly with one powerful spell. That's where choice is important. Making it so that healer can spend a few seconds or a global cool down using the appropriate spell where it's needed.

How is it rewarding if a healer has to stick to their cheap low throughput heal the majority of the time? To me that's monotonous and removes proper choices.
90 Draenei Shaman
13090
11/15/2011 04:52 PMPosted by Marathel
Its the boss mechanics that drive it.


No, it's player power that drives boss tuning. Remove raid cooldowns and bosses will be tuned to have less raid damage, making your heal choice matter, rather than leaving efficient heals as useless heals.
Edited by Ashunera on 11/15/2011 4:55 PM PST
85 Goblin Shaman
4875
Does the developers hope this will help with healers being almost immortal in PVP right now?
- World of Warcraft
85 Blood Elf Paladin
9730
11/15/2011 03:36 PMPosted by Nethaera
What is harder to understand is that Spirit is a good regen stat up to a point and depending on your class, but that Intellect “double dips” because it makes your heals larger and increases the benefit of non-Spirit based regen, such as Divine Plea, and at a certain point, Intellect as a regen stat is more powerful than Spirit as a regen stat.


Fair enough.

11/15/2011 03:36 PMPosted by Nethaera
It’s not exactly rocket surgery, but we’re not sure we get a lot of interesting design space out of it. Several players have pointed out that we could make all regeneration mechanics work off of Spirit, and that would be another way to go, but we thought that required even more change. Consider for example that non-healers often have no Spirit but still need to benefit from Divine Plea.


I'm a little confused with that though. You say that it wouldn't give you design space, but how is simplifying it going to give you more options on what to work with? Lately I've been getting the feeling that the developer's paradigm for things have been "Keep it simple," not only for themselves, but for players as well.

Perhaps, in the long run, it's better because when you're having discussions like these it's better for a whole bunch of players to understand what's going on when everyone is on the same page (i.e. "We all know Intellect increses the potency of your spells and Spirit increases regen and we did X,Y,Z for A,B,C Reason.").

I think though that it's important to remember that it's fun having certain things to understand about your class. Saying simply "Intellect increases your spell's power" doesn't seem as engaging as "Intellect increases your spell's power and also gives you a little crit."

Another thing I'd like to throw out there is that if say you're going to remove intellect being part of mana-regen, to compensate for that loss elsewhere - perhaps, something like an Active Mana Regen Model (i.e. Judging, TC, Even something for Smiting for Priests?) so that it's not just a give-away type of thing. Make it something that we have to actually use.

If you want to separate the jobs of intellect and spirit, alright. I'm down with that. But try to make it so that they both aren't just simply dull stats that do "This" or "that." What I'm thinking is more along the lines of:

Intellect:
Now increases the potency of your spells by X%
Still increases your crit chance on spells by X%

Spirit:
Mana regen is now mainly done through spirit. A, B, C spells benefit X% more from spirit.
Each class has an active regen model so that we can control the spirit we gain as a bonus (Enlightened Judgments for everyone perhaps, in some small way?).

11/15/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Nethaera
We don’t think ignoring a resource is fun. For healers, it would just mean using your most powerful spell in every situation, because there is no reason not to do so.


Agreed!

11/15/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Nethaera
Once you aren’t making decisions on the fly, you’re just going through encounter robotically, which doesn’t sound too engaging.


Agreed!

11/15/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Nethaera
On the flip side, content being brutally difficult might not be fun either (though we know it is for at least a small percentage of our players) so we want to make sure you aren’t overly punished for mistakes and make sure mana isn’t so precious that you are spending lots of time idle.


Isn't that the really difficult part to balance though? If content isn't so easy you're idling it's so difficult you're sweating bullets?

I'm not saying I don't think you can guys do it. In my honest opinion Firelands was a good difficulty all around when it comes to choosing your spells. Even when I first started in normals I can't think of one time I was just standing around doing nothing, unless I was OOM.

That said, I really want to say that I strongly suggest you keep healing the way it is (with the changes you're proposing), but have dungeons/instances shorter so that people get that 'get-in-and-get-out' feeling. That way you still have the challenge of healing, but not dragged out for so long. It's a win-win for both sides, in my opinion.
90 Troll Druid
8355


If healing continues to have its complexity increased and its fun factor reduced, why would anyone want to continue doing it?


That makes no sense.

For me, the more complex healing is, the more fun it is.

Bring on the ONLY role of WoW that still requires some thought. I plan to have every healing class at max level for MoP, just like I do in Cata. Because it's the only role I don't fall asleep in.

And if we get less healers for it, then that's a plus! Maybe some of them will go tank and healers will get Call to Arms (severe wishful thinking there haha)
Edited by Rujaa on 11/15/2011 5:01 PM PST
85 Tauren Priest
11575
11/15/2011 03:36 PMPosted by Nethaera
It’s actually not that massive a reworking. Innervate and Divine Plea for example already use a % of max mana, so they would stay exactly the same. Innervate is 5 or 15% of max mana and Divine Plea is 12% of max mana. Arcane would actually benefit from the change, because currently the spec is harder to play when mana pools are low and has too easy a time cranking out huge numbers when mana pools are high, which makes it hard for other mage specs to keep up in later tiers without constant tweaking.


The problem is that resto shaman, and to a lesser degree holy priests, don't have max-mana regen. What holy priests do have, disc priests also have, so it becomes kind of a wash in that regard - and Hymn of Hope still isn't guaranteed to hit the casting priest, which means it is entirely possible the from one of two max-mana regen abilities, holy priests will not see the benefit. None of the other mana regen cooldowns have this issue. Never mind the fact that it's the only one that has to be not only channeled, but also can be interrupted, and is on the same school as healing spells. None of the other mana regen cooldowns have this issue, either. Yes, I get there's supposed to be some sort of drawback to mana cooldwons, but there is also no other healing class that is forced to not cast heals while using their cooldown. Yes, I know, Divine Plea, healing reduction, blah blah - that doesn't mean they can't cast heals. Oh, and this isn't even mentioning Shadowfiend pathing.

It is my belief that all healer regen mechanics on major (2+ minute) cooldowns should be either spirit-based, or non-spirit based (with the possible exception of the class-unique regen mechanics), otherwise you're going to have some healers still trading throughput for regen (again, holy priests and resto shaman). Should Telluric Currents be changed to a max mana model, then holy priests get HoH, Sfiend and... Holy Concentration. There's usually no room to afford Archangel, and it's supposed to be optional besides. Moreover, it still wouldn't address the many, many issues with Water Shield.
Edited by Tomaj on 11/15/2011 5:06 PM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
13090
In ICC the only real raid cooldowns were Aura Mastery and Divine Guardian, with Divine Hymn on an 8 minute cooldown. Nearly every encounter was designed to make healing less powerful or had a constant damage aura to counter the power of HoTs.

Marrowgar - heavy raid damage phases.
Lady Deathwhisper - curses that caused spells to have long cooldowns
Festergut, Rotface, Putricide, Blood Queen Lana'thel, Sindragosa - constant raid-wide ticking damage
Valithria, Sindragosa - mechanics force half your healers to do something other than heal the raid.

HEALING at the time was too powerful. The only things raid cooldowns were needed for were Infest and Deafening Roar. Strangely enough, there weren't very many raid cooldowns, so there weren't many uses for them. See how that works?

In Burning Crusade, there were no raid cooldowns at all, and, strangely enough, no encounters called for them.


They don't make players stronger to be able to deal with boss mechanics - they make boss mechanics the way they are knowing what players are capable of doing. Doing it the other way around would be 10 times more complicated. The addition of Power Word: Barrier made the raid-wide damage bursts that you were supposed to heal through triage style easy to deal with (alongside Aura Mastery), causing other healers without those tools to beg for them to be on even footing. Now all healers have raid cooldowns and, amazingly enough, all Firelands encounters (except Baleroc and Ragnaros) were implemented with severe raid damage meant to challenge you with those cooldowns in mind. That's how encounter tuning works.
Edited by Ashunera on 11/15/2011 5:10 PM PST
85 Orc Shaman
5985
Here are a few more responses for you all (the Ghostcrawler is watching.)

This is my wish for healing:

Stop changing stuff.

Just leave it alone.

Back away from the design board.

Go work on a new non-combat pet questing system or something. Or come up with someway for people to get raid gear from farming herbs. I absolutely loved my Mage prior to Cata. The constant yo-yo's of which spec is better in Cata drove me crazy and I got tired of it, so I swapped to a paladin so I wouldn't be asked to respec every week depending on which Dev got his way in the nerfs/buffs department that week.


We hear you. Believe me. As we have said a few times lately, we understand that change (even change for the better) isn’t always desired by every player. We also don’t think it’s fair to make players live with problems and these forums are a testament to the number of things players would still like for us to change (which run the gamut from buffs or nerfs to mechanical changes or quality of life problems). The strategy that we are trying lately is to make both sides happy as much as we can and limit mechanical changes during an expansion (unless we think they really, really can’t wait) but use new expansions to fix problems.

The complexity isn't in the size of the mana pool though, the complexity is in the amount of different regen talents and abilities that work off of either intellect or spirit. If you remove any linking of regen to intellect, then only thing left by way of "regen" would be how much mana you start with at the beginning of the fight which is a drop in the pan when it comes to regen.


There shouldn't be any mana regen mechanics that work based strictly on Intellect. There are several that work based on max mana pool, but that is one of the reasons we want max mana to be fixed. If there are any Intellect-based mechanics I’m not remembering at the moment, we will convert those as well.

No one liked it, its a flawed system, and the longer they keep propping it up, the more healers that will quit or reroll Dps and Tanks.

I enjoyed this expansion's approach to healing a great deal. I guess that makes me no-one. [Quoting above.]


Yes, designs like this are subjective. There are players who preferred healing in Lich King and players, like some of the game developers, who prefer it in Cataclysm. Our goal is to try to make the game as fun as possible, and we use player feedback to influence those decisions, but as you can see, feedback is often contradictory. We ask you to keep in mind that it’s difficult for anyone on the forums to be able to speak on behalf of the community. It’s fine to state your opinion, but don’t muddy the issue by asserting that “everyone” agrees with you.


Yes, many people asks for several changes, NONE asked for Int not maxing mana change. So no, you are not making this change in response to our pleas for changes.

About the using expansions to change, just stop it, we cant have our role changing in every single expansion, none of the other roles changed like ours. This is getting a little like the behaviour of an hiperactive person.
Those who like changing all the time already had their time, when will be the time for those that dont like to change all the time? and this is coming from a healer that basically DON'T neccesarily like Cataclysm way of healing, but like Wrath way more. Even then, even when i like Wrath healing more and the changes into Cataclysm were a HUGE deception, i'm telling you, STOP CHANGING ALL THE TIME.

Remove the regen based on max mana if you like, make it based on something else, but don't remove our mana increasing. be realistic, the problem is not our mana increasing, the increased mana allows us to cast what, 9? 10? more heals in 7+ minute fights? The problem is the regen, it has always been the regen, it was the regen when healers had to stop casting and wait for their mana to regen, and its the regen now.

The ones who like changing had their time, 3 times already, stop changing our role for some time now. You are practically forcing a lot of us to leave with this attitude.
90 Human Priest
16170
11/15/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Nethaera
We don’t think ignoring a resource is fun. For healers, it would just mean using your most powerful spell in every situation, because there is no reason not to do so. Once you aren’t making decisions on the fly, you’re just going through encounter robotically, which doesn’t sound too engaging.


Mana can matter without the biggest heals being so small compared to max health. Remember BC?

Cata healing is absolutely the least fun I have ever had in WoW. I feel weak, crappy, and useless. It's not the mana costs that are the problem. It's the heal size. Why can't heal size be larger, just make the most powerful heal too expensive to spam, but have it actually be huge if we decide it's worth the mana at that moment... like in BC.
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