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Complex for you to balance or complex for players to understand? I don't I can believe any player has a hard time getting what intellect or what spirit does now.
A healer I know took an intellect downgrade to get more mastery because "his mana regen was fine." He looks at intellect as a regen stat. So, no not all players have an easy time getting what intellect or spirit does now.
The only complaint I have is that Spirit should not be called spirit. That makes it sound like a primary stat (Strength, Stamina, Intellect) when it isn't. It's a rating, like haste or critical strike. If we are going for clarity the name "spirit" just doesn't cut it. Rename it.
85 Night Elf Priest
I misunderstood. My apologies.
I am frustrated. And now to beat all with 100% attendance I am sitting out so new guys can get in.
So much I cannot understand about this game.
My point of view on a fixed mana pool is related to spike damage.
I do not play in a world-first guild, so our raid has mistakes. We are generally good with raid mechanics but sometimes someone will err and avoidable damage will happen.
This is when I need a deep mana pool. The ability to spike heals in a short time is the only way to recover from some mistakes.
These spikes can leave me dangerously low on mana, but then I manage my mana usage/regen and work with the other healers to recover.
Today, mana pool size grows as the encounters get tougher, intro normal bosses -> normal bosses -> heroic bosses. The need for spikes grows as the difficulty grows. Therefore, mana pool growth allows me to keep up with the growth of the raid.
Since I don't see you providing a massive growth in regen such that I could regen a Divine light worth of mana over say 12 seconds, I see this as a problem and my effectiveness as a healer in a emergency will decline as the encounters get more difficult. And more difficult is when I need to spike heal an emergency the most.
Unless it is your intent that these encounters are all meant to be accomplished error-free.
And here we go again, lets change everything so 1 class out of 5 can heal effectively, instead of fixing the 1 class, fix them all because the designers what to try to implement something that is too hard to balance and will not work.
Mana pools can still be large (we are thinking 100,000 mana at level 85) so that it doesn’t feel too bizarre to existing casters and doesn’t feel too much like rage or energy.
Yep, they say it all the time, the rogue energy bar is the best resource in the game. Well so just give everyone energy, including tanks and healers. While you're at it, just remove the all the different classes and make 4 classes, 1 tank 1 healer 1 melee dps and 1 ranged, Its what you're trying to do anyways, all the classes are pretty much the same now, so why bother, all it does is make 1 person made that the persons class is slightly better. So I say make them all the same, let us choose what we want to be after we choose our role.
Edit: Is it too late to change my yearly subscription because I really dont want it and I sure as hell dont wanna pay for this expansion
Edited by Darrek on 11/15/2011 6:49 PM PST
Except that you are not assuaging our concerns, I my opinion, or this thread would not be so long.
That being said, I think that if you get the functionalaity right, on release you will be appluaded for your efforts. However, I think it will work like mastery did, a patch and several updates later it will be close to what you want. All the changes to the current model we can deal with as we have no choice in the mater if we want to play wow. It is the changes that will inevitably come because things are not what you want, that are the most aggrivating. We get to be guinee pigs and never know when you might fix what is wrong. Take resto shaman, we had to wait to the last patch of Cata to get fixed, and I am still not confident that we will be placed on a level playing field with other healing classes.
I am also still concerned that you are just making it more confusing, as far as stats go.
With the nerfs to our mana regen in 4.2, why should I believe that you will get the regen right. With limited mana pools, we will suffer and be frustrated becasue we can't do what we want, heal players.
This whole has me worried and I beleive that I will be leaving healing behind, the way I did tanking on my Warrior in cata. Why do it if it is frustrating and too complicated to get right without spending hours and hours in research and comparing one build vs another, while your raid suffers if you get one wrong and can't do the helaing required. This is never fun. I hate when i fell like I am unsure about what spec/build is right and then my friends die in a raid cause I can't heal enough. That is where I think this is going.
A VERY FRUSTRATING CHANGE!
Edited by Parius on 11/15/2011 6:55 PM PST
So Cata works but the whole wheel needs to be reinvented anyway? Please don't. Some changes are needed because nothing is ever perfect but you guys keep rewriting the book every time! This new idea may fix some things but mark my words, it will cause a whole new set of problems down the road.
I liked BC. I loved Wrath. I like Cata. I don't want an entirely new system that doesn't resemble ANY of the previous healing models :( All this new system will do is prove there are entirely new ways for things to be broken.
I have a question Blizzard.
Clearly, you have two kind of healers. The one who loves to feel restraint and on the edge of getting out of mana, and those who like a little more freedom to cast spells.
At the start of Cata, we were VERY restraint and constantly on the edge of getting out of mana (unless you were a paladin, but we cant get perfect balance).
Now we start getting a little more freedom to cast spells (dont try to fool us like some of your playerbase wants, YOU CANT SPAM YOUR MOST INNEFECTIVE SPELL, no matter how many people lie about it).
Why is this such a bad thing? We worked hard for the gear, and we actually SUFFERED a lot to get it, why cant we have a tier of freedom?
I dont know who is interpreting what the healer community wants in your company, but i can tell you that guy has no idea what we want. And dont misinterpret me, i know we dont want the same things, and i know we actually want very different things.
But i can tell you this, very, very few people in the healing community wants their mana to stay fixed.
Dont force me to go, i love this game, i felt forced to go once and i came back becuse i thought you have learned from your mistakes. Don't force me to go again.
There is nothing fun in a static mana bar for us, not for our healers.
And dont speak to us about this change being small. We know we will be able to heal anyway if you make the mistake of letting this go live, we are not idiots, dont treat us like idiots. We know you wont make healing ompossible.
This change is not small, this change is changing our most important thing as healer, our max mana progression. I belive you cant understand it because you dont heal, but its like making max health fixed to tanks, or max damage fixed for DPS.
You are changing our heart, our very heart, the core of our class, and telling us that its insignificant.
Please, dont make this mistake, dont let this go live.
We are not here because we are stubborn, we really care about this, its really important to us. Dont take our heart out.
Edited by Gromahk on 11/15/2011 7:14 PM PST
I actually miss the Vanilla/TBC healing models greatly to tell you the truth. In Vanilla I had three each of Heal and Greater Heal, and my Flash Heal for when things got hairy and I needed to "catch up" quickly at the expense of longevity. I did MC back when it was hard with my guild, and even though I had lesser gear, I actually outdid other healers both in terms of overhealing (as in I had <10% overhealing, averaging about 5-7% overhealing) and in terms of longevity. Why? Because I "grew up" learning which rank of which spell to use for a given damage intake range.
Gear of course, scaled a lot more linearly back in those days than they do now, and that part I hope MoP takes care of (it isn't so much an Item Squish as it is an Item Deflation). Stat-wise INT and SPI were fairly even on importance, and the balance came in the choice between a bit more throughput or a bit more cast time ability, but neither outstripped the other so much that it became "the only way to do things".
Then we had TBC's introduction of diminishing returns on downranking. This was partially necessitated because of gear inflating at a pace about five times what it did in Vanilla WoW. I didn't mind the DR though - it added a bit more complexity to the heal tables on which to use, but I still had a lot of control over how I healed somebody in a given situation. All healing abilities available to me were on my action bars in full regular use during all of the expansion.
The gear inflation caused a major problem with regen to the point that the devs made the very aggravating choice to curtail spirit's contribution to regen. As compensation Replenishment was added in and thus the INT as the be-all and end-all of stats era was born. At the same time crit based regen (especially for paladins) had to be reduced dramatically since it became a godly return mechanism, but with spirit hit so badly that made the introduction of the clunky (and punitive) mechanic known as Divine Plea a necessity.
Then there came Wrath's healing model. No more downranking and the gear inflation shot up dramatically (too much so) as compensation. Spirit was still virtually worthless, since virtually all mana regen mechanics (especially secondary ones) were based off max mana pools, which grew exponentially with gear instead of linearly like in Vanilla. As a result replenishment had to be nerfed and Innervate changed to a set percentage of the caster's base mana and not on either SPI or INT. Divine Plea remained virtually unchanged since Holy Paladins had little control over their regen mechanics (and honestly didn't need control due to gear inflation). Net result: Gear inflation made healing choices moot, regen became out of control, and raid damage being obscenely high and/or spikey became the new endgame model. New tools were added to our heal set to "mix it up", but the regen/inflation factor dwarfed the toolbox set and just spamming the BFH (BigFastHeal) reigned supreme.
Now we have Cata's healing model. Or at least its intended model. One small heal that costs virtually nothing to use but is painfully slow to cast, one big heal that is also slow to cast and costs a lot, and a fast heal that costs a crapton and heals for a medium high amount (mega inefficient), along with moderate to high output high-time cooldowns.
The big, slow heal is our "go to" now even though it's inefficient, but not so much because of the gear inflation, but instead because the same cast-time Heal-level spells offer such pitiful healing that it couldn't even keep up with a same level mob hitting you once every three seconds. Gear inflation made more of the big or fast heals possible, but that had to happen since the efficient heal basically got zero use, not for lack of players wanting to use it, but lack of any ability to use it and not have your teammates die. So instead of casting a lot of Heals during lulls, I get to cast one or two GHeals on my priest and pray nobody else needs immediate healing for fear of having to switch to my mana hog known as Flash Heal. I don't have the choice of whether to use heal, GH, or FH. I have the choice of GH or FH or PoH spam, all at attrocious mana costs. Net result: Gear has to be inflated to support this style of triage healing in a Wrath raid damage model (especially so in 5 mans), and regen mechanics, still being tied to max mana become outrageously out of control, yet mandatory at the same time.
Continued in my next post due to char limit...
Continued from previous post:
I've already made a post here in this thread, but I'll say this now: I would go for a fixed mana bar if you pared down the number of "Oh SHI-" abilities I have to lug around and let me downrank my spells again. It should be less about the gear influencing whether or not a player successfully maintains a balance of longevity vs. power than the player's skill making that determination. I didn't gain uber stats in Vanilla, yet I felt more powerful for having control over my character and how it was played back then.
I truly don't feel like I have a choice in the current model, and in 5.0's model, I feel it'll be the same in terms of healing choices if the spells and downranking are unchanged, as spirit will be the one and only stat I ever really want to aim for since mana pools would be permanently fixed. If heals relative to damage output remains the same or similar in MoP as it is now, I'm likely to just forego healing altogether and very likely shelve my priest for good. I play as shadow most of the time now because healing's just too damned stressful. Besides the gear inflation making others believe they can stand in the fire and not be penalized most of the time, the lack of choice on what I can use to heal in practice vs. on paper just makes healing a non-rewarding job. I know you (Blizzard) know this already because you wouldn't have introduced the Call to Arms rewards if this were truly not the case.
Make healers feel meaningful again instead of the punitive mess it is now. Let us determine our own results via skill instead of via some half-baked triage model based solely on gear inflation. Sure, downranking was just the same spell multiple times. But it was choice. When to use a specific rank and where to use it. We still felt progressively more powerful because as tiers were introduced we still improved in stats (Vanilla) and we didn't need clunky regen mechanics thrown in to prop us up. We learned when to use the Five Second Rule to manage our regen and when we couldn't use that as a tactic we learned how to manage healing without overhealing. Now? It's "small heal for squat and such a long cast time as to...damn he's dead" or "whee, uber heal that's gonna eat up my mana bar like it is going out of style".
If you're going to fix our mana pools to never increase, then you have to do the following:
1) Deflate the gear. Seriously, this must be done.
2) Put downranking back in OR reduce constant damage intake. We're in inefficiency-land while still in a Wrath damage intake model right now. It has to go.
Do those two and you won't need to make INT scale absurdly for SP and you won't need to make SPI scale absurdly for regen. You can even both out to be much more linear and have less fear of one being supremely godly over the other. Keep things the way you appear to be going and SPI is going to be King and you're just going to end up nerfing it again, further angering what few healers you have left.
I want choice. Neither your current damage model nor your triage model allow for that in most situations. Curtailing our mana pool growth only compounds that problem to the point SPI is a must, SP or no SP gains from INT.
Efficiency comes from choice, not artificial limitations based on overinflation.
Having only read the OP and the blue posts (and any post quoted), I'm not certain this has been mentioned, but regardless:
Int has only become such a huge deal of a stat in Cataclysm because it has an effect on both throughput and longevity. Prior to Cata, if you will recall, most healers had to make the call between int (mana/some effect on regen), spirit and mp5 (mana regen/longevity), and spell power (throughput). The interaction between int and spirit/mp5 was interesting, and since neither effected throughput, it was an intriguing mechanic. However, with the change in Cata to make Int affect both throughput and longevity, a lot of that interesting interaction between stats disappears.
Also of note. If int no longer will affect mana, will base mana=max mana? I could see that as being somewhat problematic, especially across classes that have specs which use mana and specs which don't, but also due to the balancing of spell costs being % of base mana.
I'm really getting tired of the constant, drastic changes that this game keeps doing to itself. I've always defending you guys (Blizz) when the players attack your policies and "amendments." But now your'e changing why I pay 18 dollars a month for. I play the healing role with every class that is capable of it.
What is coming to mind is the NETFLIX effect. The dominant service in its industry can and will falter. Your'e wanting to "change for the better" so fast that your paying customers are just not wanting to keep up with you. I know your'e reading our suggestions and feedback, but it just seems like your'e going about it as if you think you know whats better for us and the game. Yes its your game, but we're the one who are paying for it. So ultimately we will be the ones deciding how this game continues on.
When MoP comes out I am hoping for the best, but I'm expecting the worst.
I see very little incentive already for someone to roll a healer. Your usually blamed for mistakes and are responsible for keeping alive the entire raid. It is indeed stressful and not a cake walk as insinuated by Blizzard. Now once again they are messing with healers foundational system in the dawn of a new expansion. People don't like this kind of jerking around.
With regards to mana becoming an energy bar, I think this is gonna cause a huge subscription loss. Many people enjoy watching their mana bar increase as an indication of how their growing in strength. Now we will be reduced to getting excited over a big number next to the words "Mana Regen."
Please explain to me how Spirit is not becoming a version of Adrenaline Rush for rogues where you have a set bar that increases regeneration upon abilities/stats.
Honestly, we don’t think a lot of players will even notice the change unless they are really in tune with how much mana their character has. A lot of players learn that say Greater Heal takes up a chunk of their bar of X length and they have an idea on how many more heals they can cast before they run OOM. In other words, they already think in terms of bar length and percentage, not absolute number. The biggest differences will be that your mana bar won’t grow from 100,000 in 4.0 to 120,000 in 4.2 and mana-pool-based regen mechanics won’t grow more and more dominant over Spirit-based regen mechanics as your gear improves (and we can certainly boost Spirit-based regeneration if needed so that healers don’t feel nerved).
That's really the gist of the concern in my opinion. The interaction between Intellect and Spirit is one of the cooler things about playing a Druid, especially with the myriad of heals available now.
Edited by Graviplana on 11/15/2011 11:33 PM PST
Yes this is very much subjective. I've been reading all these threads about these MoP changes, and I don't see ANYONE in favor of it, so who exactly are you doing this for? So many changes get pushed through in this game when no one is really complaining about it in the first place. I'll be quite blunt, I'm sick of playing a game that changes the mechanics so radically every expansion, sometimes even mid expansion. Stop it, this is why people are moving away from WoW. You guys just don't get it anymore.
You are 100% correct. There is little support for this change all across the board. All indicators point to the opposite. Who at blizzard is forcing these drastic changes down our throat if there are many developers happy with wrath/cata healing?
The forum population represents a pretty small portion of the playerbase. Like fraction of a percent. It's also primarily composed of angry people, as an angry person feels much more motivated to tell people they're angry than a happy person would be to tell people they're happy.
So the forums are, by and large, filled with threads of people posting about how they don't like what they see.
EDIT: More on topic, I think some people are way overplaying the extent of the change.
For one, this was just an idea, they might not go through with it. Iterative design process and all that.
Two, if they do go through with it, all it really does is make Int not a regen stat. Everything else is meant to play the same as I understand it. It'd still be the Cata model, but mana regen for Disc Priests, Druids and to a lesser extent Holy Paladins would shift away from stuff like Rapture and Revitalize and more towards what you get from Spirit. Everything else still plays the same, you might change up your gearing strategy a bit, but it's nothing major.
Three, as for the whole 'a growing mana bar is a nice way to see how far I've come and we'll lose that', well, yeah, that's one metric lost, but there's still Spell Power, Haste, Crit, Mastery and MP5 and all that other stuff you can go off of.
Edited by Skootalloo on 11/15/2011 8:36 PM PST
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