Raid healing is more stressful now.

70 Troll Druid
530
Is this something you want to do because of raiding? Don't. I'm stressed out enough about heroic randoms. I don't need more. Only running heroics when the satchel shows up right now because of the stress. Please stop changing classes every patch/x-pac. I am not keeping up with it anymore.

I made a holy priest, resto druid, resto shaman because that's what I liked in the game up to cata. It's my favorite part and cata took away my fun of healing. Not that my groups didn't wipe before or members didn't die but the new healing system is just no fun with all the aoe and hard blows taking the tanks below 50% health.


In Wrath I ran daily heroics with 3 healers, sometimes 4 if I had time.

In Cata, I've run each dungeon maybe twice. Ever. I do raid heal on my main, and that's only tolerable because of the level of gear I have. Heroics on my lesser-geared alts are not fun. They are not relaxing. They are horrible. I have loved healing since Vanilla. Please make it fun again.
85 Tauren Priest
11575
11/15/2011 08:50 PMPosted by Darglar
I like how you selectively pick the one reply that fits your talking points while completely ignoring everyone else. You can say that it's not a nerf all day long, but when people see their mana drop from 130k to 100k when you implement this change, people will feel nerfed.


You may feel nerfed. It may not necessarily actually be a nerf. There is no sense in equating the two.
91 Troll Druid
11145
11/15/2011 09:35 PMPosted by Alayea
Most people who had multiple healers in Wrath only have one now including myself. Why? Because the learning curve is much steeper and the gear you start out with is completely inadequate.

Same here. I had my shaman (main), druid, and disc priest that were raid-capable in WotLK but Cataclysm left me no choice but to stick to my main. This expansion utterly destroyed what experience I had gained in WotLK and I'm sorry, I don't have the time nor inclination to relearn all the nuances and tricks for every class spec.

My guildies aren't quitting over MoP or these proposed changes but they might stop trying to heal if the mechanics keep changing out from under them. Too much change is bad. Too big a change is bad. Smaller, incremental changes are fine. At least give players the time they need to learn to play properly.

My guild used to be a 25-player raiding guild, but were forced to downsize as guildies quit playing, stopped raiding, etc. It's been through it's share of ups and downs, but the next expansion may very well be the nail in the coffin for us (and we're the oldest guild on Malfurion). I'm seriously considering dropping my resto spec for the first time since I began playing WoW, and that alone saddens me because it means that healing really did stop being fun.


By the way, I have a question(s) that will hopefully get an answer (either a blue or someone else knowledgable).

  • If the change goes through, will healers really have to choose between spellpower and regen since spellpower got folded into intellect?

  • And if so, what does it mean for strength and agility DPSers when they don't have to face their own equivalence of such a choice? FYI: saying "they've got hit and expertise is a both a non-answer and unrelated. They're not primary stats, which intellect and (de facto) spirit are.


Answer to 1st question: Spell power got folded into Intellect back at the beginning of the xpac, if I am remembering correctly. I still do not understand why spell power is on weapons. The excuse they gave, "To make it different from melee weapons" is kind of bull. The intellect stat does that for you. I think it was to help signify it better.

Answer to 2nd question: So first off, Strength and Agility stats give melee dps Attack Power; something that was folded into Strength and Agility near the beginning of the xpac too, or whenever before Cata. Now hit/expertise is the melee dps's equivalent to the healer's spirit. Spirit is considered a secondary stat. Hit/expertise are considered secondary stats. In some cases, spirit gives hit (shaman/shadow priests). Melee dps have to juggle hit/expertise and their primary stat (str/agi) in the same way healers have to juggle spirit and intellect.
85 Goblin Priest
5565
So what exactly is this going to solve? There's always been a regen cap, and if they follow the cata heal model, there is still going to be one. The only difference is that it's easier to hit the regen cap right now, and having int increase mana pools, it gives us more flexibility in using high mana cost spells.

I think the current design works fine. Mana pools are big enough that we can go through short periods of flash heal spam, without sucking us dry. But at the same time we still can't sustain spamming our high cost spells, which is the stated goal. So why fix something that's not broken.

Spirit is such a boring stat, in fact passive regen in general is boring. Personally, I think the disc regen model is how regen should work because player skill is taken into account. It rewards proper rapture management with greater regen and it punishes bad rapture management with terrible regen.

I dunno about this change though. I need to see how rapture will work before I can say one way or the other. Disc has always favored int over spirit, so it's definitely going to be a hard pill to swallow.
90 Dwarf Paladin
13780
What really frustrates me, and i think a lot of players, is the developer mentality that is echoed so frequently regarding design changes, and a great example of it is featured in the following excerpts from this very thread:


As I pointed out above however, players rarely agree on what is fun and are often on completely opposite sides.

...

And don’t mistake a few dozen or even hundred passionate posts as consensus on anything.

...

We don’t think ignoring a resource is fun.


This is why we scream endlessly for you guys to listen to us. Because, you don't. You say you do. All the time. But you don't. You tell us that our opinions - at least, the ones that don't reflect agreement with your opinions - don't reflect the majority. "'Fun' is subjective," you tell us. "What is fun for one person may not be fun for another. So just because you don't think it's fun doesn't mean others won't like it." Never mind that the overwhelming majority of posters are screaming at the tops of their lungs that we don't want the change. You have an answer for that too: "We don't consider a few dozen or even a few hundred passionate posts as a consensus on anything." Convenient. Because, once again, we as the mere players have no idea what we would enjoy, what would be 'fun' - nor do the "hundreds of passionate posters" who are trying like crazy to tell you what we think would be 'fun'. We're all too narrow in scope. We can't see the "big fun picture". Because, hey, what might not be fun for hundreds of players could be fun for hundreds of others. They just aren't here to say how fun they think it will be. They're too busy celebrating.

So, what is the solution? We get what YOU think is fun. Because if YOU think it's fun, well, we will too. Well, most of us. The most of us who aren't here, telling you how much fun we DON'T think it is. The rest of us. Or them. Whoever.

How on earth can you guys not get it? The people who care are the ones who post. The people who don't care enough to have an opinion will either take whatever you give them or go find something else to do. (You might take note of just how many have done just that).

So telling us over and over that just because we don't like it doesn't mean other, nameless, silent people will is not only unproductive, it's insulting and condescending.

It's time that Blizzard remembered who made this game what it is. You guys have got to stop telling us what is fun and start asking us. Because if you don't, your overdeveloped egos are just going to keep driving people away. Only it won't be by the "dozens" or "hundreds". As we've seen, it will be by the "thousands" or "millions."
Edited by Aranyszin on 11/15/2011 10:06 PM PST
85 Tauren Priest
11575
11/15/2011 09:59 PMPosted by Facepalmtree
Answer to 1st question: Spell power got folded into Intellect back at the beginning of the xpac, if I am remembering correctly. I still do not understand why spell power is on weapons. The excuse they gave, "To make it different from melee weapons" is kind of bull. The intellect stat does that for you. I think it was to help signify it better.


At the time, it was due to enhancement shaman. I can tell you that right now. Hence, changes upcoming in 4.3 to ensure enhancement shaman won't use caster weapons.

As a side note, some healers already have to choose between throughput and regen (holy priests and resto shaman).

Also, some healers don't "juggle" spirit so much as "try not to have it" because of their regen mechanics.
100 Troll Priest
15640
While I'm coming around to the idea, I feel there are some things of concern when making such a drastic switch:

1. Int increasing mana pool is an obvious and visible indication of character growth when it comes to getting more gear. Yes, getting an upgrade may increase the value of my greater heal by 100, but that's less likely to be noticed since the size of heals already varies anyway. Unless we're talking a MAJOR jump, I'm more likely to notice a gain of 1000 mana than an increase on the amount I heal for. So not having that immediate visible increase takes away from the sense of "I just got an upgrade. I'm stronger now, and you can see that."

2. Spirit has been juggled around in importance and means different things to different classes. In the case of priest, offhand since vanilla I remember times of Spirit is okay -> Spirit is great if you can play the 5 second rule -> Mp5 is far superior -> Buffing spirit regen -> No more MP5 stat -> Replenishment makes Int a better regen stat -> We want healers to care about Spirit and they need to be worried about it for heroics and raids -> There isn't any off-tier spirit cloth that drops in the raid tier. Aside from the fact that Spirit was never a standout amazing look-at-me stat, it hasn't even consistently been a good secondary stat. Half of the healing classes didn't even utilize spirit for a long, long time.

3. Spirit is hard to understand. According to Wowpedia, the formula for spirit based regen is
SpiritRegen(SPI,INT,LEVEL) = (0.001 + SPI * sqrt(INT) * BASE_REGEN[LEVEL]) * 5
On the other hand, we can see things like
128.125 haste rating = 1%
179.34 critical strike rating = 1%
102.446 spell hit rating = 1%
etc.
The values for the other stats on gear are fairly straightforward. Now look at spirit. How much mana regen does 100 more spirit give you? It's not nearly as clear. How much of an intellect increase are you gaining? Does it change your int to spirit ratio? Is it more valuable to take a piece of gear that upgrades your spirit by 20 and your int by 40, or one that upgrades your spirit by 35 and your int by 33?

4. Is a bigger heal inherently better than being able to cast more, smaller heals? The reason downranking became so popular in the first place was that simply having a bigger heal wasn't useful for most of the situations. That is, a rank 7 GHeal in sunwell would be more than half overheal. Rank 1 was great for small dps damage that didn't warrant an AOE heal. Rank 4 was sufficient for most tanking. Rank 7 was basically for "overheal, because if you underheal then the tank dies" situations such as Brutallus.

A spellpower upgrade on a dps caster doesn't raise a lot of questions. More spellpower = more damage = stronger mage. A healer having a Greater Heal hit for 200 more is less clear. Was that necessary? Instead of having that GHeal hit for 1000 more, would it have been better to be able to cast two GHeals that don't hit for anything extra? Is it better to be able to alternate between two tanks or cast one larger heal, but only on one target?

And so, with intellect only increasing spellpower and not mana pool, does that devalue the intellect stat for a healer? It's going to be on our gear, but does it have value there anymore?

5. If the mana pool never increases, what does that do for mana as a resource? It doesn't matter whether you have 100 energy or 100,000 mana, it's essentially the same at that point. Especially if caster dps are (as I understand it) basically going to be like prot and ret paladins - always going to have an infinite supply.

It's all going to be basically energy/focus. You have a fixed resource value. Each spell does a certain percent of that value, regardless of whether you're in ilvl 100 or heroic tier 13 gear. We may regen at a different rate, just like hunters regen focus at a different rate than rogues regen energy. But it's all the same. It's not mana anymore. Not in the sense we've known it for years now.
91 Troll Druid
11145
11/15/2011 09:48 PMPosted by Tomaj
I like how you selectively pick the one reply that fits your talking points while completely ignoring everyone else. You can say that it's not a nerf all day long, but when people see their mana drop from 130k to 100k when you implement this change, people will feel nerfed.


You may feel nerfed. It may not necessarily actually be a nerf. There is no sense in equating the two.
And if I may add; when they figure out the item level inflation issue, you are going to feel nerfed. But when everything around you gets as nerfed as you are going to be, everything EVENS out. If you switch everything to percents, you will do about the same, if not the same, damage/heals/damage taken as you did before. Everything goes from large numbers to smaller numbers. But I digress.

This healing change is proposed to help with the scaling issues in the later tiers. Or that is what I am getting out of it. I guess it hurts when you do not understand and are confused about change. But isn't it "Movember"? Moving is change... Why are you made about that? Even though why would you move in November? Do people have secret topical islands they move to during cold weather? I go with "No Shave" November. I have to say I am growing a nice goatee. But I digress again. I suggest you read over the proposed change again. It might help you understand. If it doesn't, I suggest you get more intellect on your cloth gear because you really need it... LOL. J/K... Kind of...

AND for people who think Mana is just energy/focus now... Mana has always been like Energy or Focus, minus the fact that mana regenerates SLOWER and uses larger numbers... It is a resource to use spells.
100 Human Paladin
11805
I can see where Blizzard is going and why, but it certainly won't help improve the "fun" factor.

In WoLK, when a raid went horribly wrong, it was all over in seconds.

In Cata, on the flip side, it is like a slow motion freeway wreck that you're watching unfold in front of you and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

You can keep a broken raid alive for a while, well past the point the encounter cannot be salvaged, all the time watching your mana drain. The healers are the ones watching the entire raid's health bars dropping. It's us who are regularly the first point of failure.. oom, potions used, cd's gone, people slowly dying one at a time.

It's been a year now and it's getting real old.

Maybe my experiences have been soured by only having done 10-mans since the end of WoLK, but I remember "the bad old days" as being fun and worth playing.
85 Goblin Shaman
3450
For some reason this big healer change worries me. It's going to flop like the beginning of Cata and we'll have healers OOMing within seconds on regular dungeons...
90 Dwarf Paladin
13780
[quote="35951466397
AND for people who think Mana is just energy/focus now... Mana has always been like Energy or Focus, minus the fact that mana regenerates SLOWER and uses larger numbers... It is a resource to use spells.


No, it isn't just energy or focus with larger numbers. Describing the way mana works now is really about describing how intellect works. As it stands now, as content gets more challenging, healers have two increases to compensate - we get more mana, allowing us to case more spells (and, as necessary, larger spells) and at the same time the intellect makes those spells more powerful. With a fixed resource, like energy, the number of heals we can cast in a given time period is also fixed - permanently. Unless our level changes, the number of holy lights, divine lights, etc. is static and totally dependent on how much regen we have.

The developers want it that way, because it makes designing gear and encounters easier for them. Nowthat they are on this mad rush to push content out faster and faster (rather than focusing, say, on developing better content), they don't want to be bothered by having to test out a bunch of math scenarios, so the less flexibility that new gear provides the players the better. For them. But the players know that less flexibility = everything gets harder. And despite Blizzard's laughable track record on balancing classes or encounters, they now expect us to trust that they will be able to balance healing against progressively harder content with fewer variables. This is going to be disasterous, and the people who actually PLAY these roles (and have for longer than this crop of developers have been writing them) know it.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14945
What I would like to know is how does the mana pool scale with these changes? Is it only by level? If so then as some have said why make the numbers change at all since we will effectively be using energy / focus at that point?
85 Night Elf Priest
13405
I got mad at such proposal.

Recenly i have had to drop my Holy spec, which i had fun and played for more than 3 years, just because disc is superior. Today i can tell you disc is really superior, coz the only healing spec in the game in which all cata proposal for the role was trully applied and still is the Holy Priest, really slow casts and poor mana returns.

Instead of trying to reroll the whole story why don you make the other specs to behave more like holy does. I really liked the changes on healing for Cata, but i dont find it fun to learn all my talents again as we did from WOLTK to Cata and you are proposing for Mists or either not seeing my MP scalling as i gear up. I know this is becoming a problem, but well none asked that gear upgrades should have come by means of a 10 or more levels, this is insane ... FL 378, Heroic FL 391 ... come on it perfectly could be 385. The same applies for the stats, i remeber the days back to BC and WOLTK i was wondering, cool, one day we will get 100k stam and MP, but i really guessed that would take place when level 100 would come.

Pls stop making radical changes, there are so much broken or not working to be focused on why trying to change what made sense once recently changed. Shadow priests still counts on a lot of RNG factors, need to tradeoff all CDs while PVPing (ex: dispersion it should be for mana regen, but we use to survive when mana is not needed) and many other examples for other classes as well.
Edited by Thyrin on 11/15/2011 10:40 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Priest
3875
I might be in the minority here but I'm in full support of the MoP Int change and I certainly still find healing exceedingly fun.

The claims that it will result in healers being nerfed and making their jobs more difficult are completely baseless, seeing as we have no idea how Spirit will function in MoP. Our characters will certainly progress via the other secondary stats and as there is much more progression via cosmetic gear upgrades, having the mana pool remain static seems minor in comparison.

Being a primary stat, there's almost little thought with regards to Int when it comes to gearing up and I'm willing to bet that most people don't know by hard what their buffed/unbuffed max mana is.

Currently, the disparity in mana regeneration across the healers means that some have scaled to the point where some almost never risk going OOM while others have to rely heavily on Spirit to keep up. While this model may have worked at the start of Cata and T11, the difference in scaling in terms of mana regeneration seems to be something Blizzard wants to avoid again and this Int change seems to be in response to that.

Ultimately, a greater homogenization to mana regeneration mechanics should theoretically make healer balance easier and that, to me, trumps not having a certain number increase.
Edited by Ceddya on 11/15/2011 10:44 PM PST
If you implement a static mana count I am done with this game. There is no feeling of progression with everyone having the exact same amount of mana, at all.

Tanks will be able to see their HP go up.
DPS will see their DPS go up.

Healers will get, NOTHING. This will be an absolute great way to completely destroy your healer population, and I know I for one won't be apart of it.
85 Tauren Priest
11575
AND for people who think Mana is just energy/focus now... Mana has always been like Energy or Focus, minus the fact that mana regenerates SLOWER and uses larger numbers... It is a resource to use spells.


No, it isn't just energy or focus with larger numbers.


It is a resource bar (just like rage/energy/focus/runic power). It has its mechanics to regen (in the case of healers, spirit and intellect). Fundamentally, they are not much different.

Take for example the comparison of a hunter. A hunter has three ways of regaining focus normally - Steady/Cobra Shot, Haste and passive regen. A healer, on the other hand, also has three ways of regaining mana normally - Intellect, Spirit, and Class Cooldown X. Though one of a hunter's focus regen mechanics is active, it's still one of the ways available to every hunter - same with Int, Spi and the healer's cooldown for mana. The only differences between hunters and healers (in this example) are:

- Which stats dictate resource regeneration
- How big the resource bar is
- How quickly the resource bar fills

Now, if we were to look at some other comparisons, let's take Survival compared to Disc, and Marksman to Holy.

In Survival you have something that more or less equates to Rapture - Thrill of the Hunt. It restores focus based on a particular condition. Interestingly, Rapture has the same mechanics. It's just a different resource, and a different condition for the trigger. For TotH, it's only a 15% chance, however, as opposed to guaranteed, like Rapture.

For Marksman, you actually get no such regen. Just like Holy.

So, classes not using mana get extremely similar mechanics. So... yeah. As I said, fundamentally, they are just like energy bars.

As an aside, I find it interesting, by the way, that many RPGs use the regen stat to increase mana pool, and WoW doesn't. Why not just have spirit increase mana pool for healing specs? It's pretty clear that this is a possibility, given that spirit can mean different things even within the same class, and provide a different "thing" entirely (right now, Hit rating). The Intellect portion of regen could still stay where it is so Intellect isn't too devalued, but it would greatly increase the importance of spirit to healers.

Yes, it would mean healers with a DPS spec would need two sets of gear again, but... anyone competent enough to do that already gets two sets of gear.
Edited by Tomaj on 11/15/2011 10:58 PM PST
85 Troll Druid
6485
Why fix something that isn't broken? There are issues with healing, but this isn't one of them. I feel like healing is far less intellectually challenging than it was made out to be in the Cata run up. My character feels far weaker than it did in WOTLK, and it feels like the "skill cap" has been significantly lowered. I'm thinking of switching back to my rogue as my main, just because it lets me utilize a lot more of my ability as a player. It's kinda funny the role reversal that has taken place in Cata. While healing can sometimes be frustrating, it is not challenging for the most part.
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