Raid healing is more stressful now.

85 Tauren Druid
10475
11/14/2011 09:44 AMPosted by Melkar
And a big reason for that is regen/mana getting out of control such that raids CAN drop healers. Which is actually a reason to support this change.


Except most of the time they are dropping healers because of DPS checks that are made easier by dropping healers. A long time ago the thought seemed to be that if you couldn't beat the enrage, it was because your dps needed more gear / skill. Now, it's just a matter of how few healers you can use to squeak by.

The other issue I have with blizzard's stance is trying to make mana matter in all content, regardless of gear level. If I'm healing a heroic dungeon in full raid gear, I should not be having to struggle with healing the group. DPS and tanks get more powerful as they gear up, why not healers? You don't see full heroic raid geared tanks rolling cooldowns in entry heroics, why should healers have to? In their attempt to make healing "interesting" and "challenging" they are pushing players to the brink of burnout.
Edited by Swey on 11/14/2011 10:41 AM PST
2 Troll Rogue
0
The other issue I have with blizzard's stance is trying to make mana matter in all content, regardless of gear level. If I'm healing a heroic dungeon in full raid gear, I should not be having to struggle with healing the group. DPS and tanks get more powerful as they gear up, why not healers? You don't see full heroic raid geared tanks rolling cooldowns in entry heroics, why should healers have to? In their attempt to make healing "interesting" and "challenging" they are pushing players to the brink of burnout.


Uhh, your regen and the strength of your heals increase as you gear up; that will be the gear progression for healers in MoP. I highly doubt you'll be going oom in entry level heroics when you start getting gear from raids.
Edited by Varnroztok on 11/14/2011 10:46 AM PST
100 Night Elf Druid
10665
It is annoying when we're short a healer so we bring in a pug or someone's alt and they feel the need to blow it out because they have something to prove. (Especially since I'm the only girl and the other person is usually a guy.) In order to avoid the inevitable "look, I did better than Phay!" I end up abandoning mana efficiency and responding with my own blowout performance. That's not due to game design tho; it just shows how competitive people are.
90 Human Warrior
10380
And a big reason for that is regen/mana getting out of control such that raids CAN drop healers. Which is actually a reason to support this change.


It's not addressing the problem though which is why I'm against this change.

The problem is that healing spells are not balanced against the encounters. Why is their so little healing required that it can be accomplished by less healers? Or the converse argument is, why are the healing spells so powerful that they are able to keep up with the amount of damage being taken?

Regen is a part of this, obviously, but it's not the biggest factor. Regen is meant for maintaining healing over the course of a fight. If they are not able to challenge the innate regen of the player, then they are not forcing healers to utilize enough mana. I would argue that yes, they do need to change regen and I still have absolutely no clue why they still have so many regen abilities linked to mana, but the scaling of the mana pool is a flash in the pan to try to address that problem.

I think that triage healing is the proper course of action, but they need to make it actual triage healing. Currently, our healing spells are entirely too powerful. Realize that the damage of an encounter is based around what the healers can heal, not the other way around.

Say you were dealing with the burn phase of beth'tilac, between every big pulse you are essentially getting every single person back to full health. By the end, you start losing people because you can't get people back to full health fast enough. This is essentially triage healing, but the problem is with how the damage is coming in. Because we are able to get people back to full health so quickly, the damage has to scale to a point that we can't heal them back to a sustainable point. No amount of cooldowns or healing will be able to keep them alive regardless of the amount of mana you have available.

Now, if we apply a stronger form of triage healing to this same encounter, you end up with players taking more damage than can be directly healed from the beginning but instead of the damage scaling up constantly, it can scale up more slowly or even not at all. This means that you aren't healing people back to full between every pulse allowing you to reactively use throughput cooldowns to "catch up" as the fight progresses. This makes spell choices much more important because you can't just spam people back to full because you'll run out of mana in the long run. You have to heal up the lowest people and let the aoe heals and hots work as a sustainable healing.

The biggest difference is that ultimately in the stronger form of triage healing, you run out of mana and cooldowns rather than the later where you may or may not run out of mana, but the amount of throughput required becomes too high.
91 Night Elf Druid
9335
/changebacktobc/wotlkstyles

problem solved!
100 Blood Elf Paladin
13030
Blizzard has already made a significant move in the right direction with the overall encounter design in Firelands. The more skilled your raid as a whole is, the lighter the healing becomes, and now you have the choice of dropping healers, or the healers using more efficient spells.

That said, Duese is correct - the model isn't completely working because we are too strong. If Blizzard continues to design encounters that reward good play, and reigns back the relative strength of healing, I think we will end up with a model that most of us will like.

It really isn't just a matter of tuning damage numbers - there are multiple pieces to the puzzle, and Blizzard is getting close to fitting them all together properly.

Sadly, I probably won't be around to see it. Dragon Soul will probably be the last raid for me. If you know what just happened this past weekend, you'll know why.

Riôt
90 Human Priest
15890
Hey, if mana pools stay mostly constant, holy concentration and rapture might actually end up being about the same regen value. That is something I can really get behind and like.
85 Draenei Priest
14060
Except most of the time they are dropping healers because of DPS checks that are made easier by dropping healers. A long time ago the thought seemed to be that if you couldn't beat the enrage, it was because your dps needed more gear / skill. Now, it's just a matter of how few healers you can use to squeak by.

It's fairly pathetic when the healer ratio drops below 1:5. The average guild has been 4 healing everything (except Beth) and H Ragnaros is significantly easier with 3 healers. Heck, our first sub 1% wipe was done with a healer down for all of phase 4. Firelands was just a stupid DPS check. It failed to challenge healers and the extensive nerfs just made the entire experience worse. I can understand cutting the boss' HP by 10%, but were damage nerfs really necessary?

In a way, you could say that healer double dips from everything. They benefit from personal gear upgrades as well as they benefit from better geared tanks and higher raid DPS. And that's not even mentioning how easier it is to heal people who know how to manage defensive cooldowns and not take excessive avoidable damage.

Blizzard has already made a significant move in the right direction with the overall encounter design in Firelands. The more skilled your raid as a whole is, the lighter the healing becomes, and now you have the choice of dropping healers, or the healers using more efficient spells.

Except that leads to the fate of the extra healers to either play their offspec or sit in group 6 more often than not. And I don't think anyone wishes for that design.
Edited by Mint on 11/14/2011 3:52 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Priest
7165
I wish they would just stop freaking going off about how sound and incredible and how much was done with the Cataclysm Healing model. It stank. No one liked it, its a flawed system, and the longer they keep propping it up, the more healers that will quit or reroll Dps and Tanks.

Thats.. really about all I can say about it.


There are quite a few people who love the new healing model. My priest was my first toon, I've healed since Vanilla and main switched to an elemental shaman because healing in Wrath felt so whack-a-mole and boring. Cataclysm was incredibly refreshing again, and I continue to enjoy it.

My only potential gripe is that good gameplay is being rewarded by knocking off an extra healer or two. I haven't been a victim of this, but I can see the annoyance.

I'm happy when healing is challenging and when healers are truely needed. If Blizz wants to issue changes for MoP, so be it. At least people are coming out of this expansion with a Cataclysm mindset and not Wrath.
Edited by Maharei on 11/14/2011 4:05 PM PST
85 Tauren Druid
10475
I think a major problem is they can't seem to figure out how to force numbers of healers in an encounter, and I can understand that this is a very difficult challenge from a development standpoint. Personally, I'm not sure there even IS a way to force healer numbers, since having above average players (everyone in the raid, not just healers) can make so much difference on the amount of healing required.

85 Blood Elf Priest
5790
Glad I don't raid. Doesn't sound like fun at all.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10580


I don't like the way it ended up either. But encounter design is a symptom, not the problem. The problem is scaling. Once healers scale too well the encounter designers have to start tossing out huge damage because that's the only thing that can challenge the raid.


You misunderstand. Boss encounters can be designed in such a fashion that triage healing (what was touted at the beginning of this expansion) actually becomes meaningful. Spell choice will play a part into it, but depending on the amount of damage done and the rate of it, can lead to meaningful choices between our "three main heals" they are so wont to push on us (which I wouldn't mind).

We don't tend to use those single-target heals as much outside of tank healing or specific encounters (Shannox or Baleroc, for example) because otherwise it's just ZOMGAOEHEALALLTHETHINGS. There's so little in-between it's actually quite ridiculous.


We agree, except that we can ZOMAOEHEALALLTHETHINGS. We have the mana to do that. So if we didn't have to do that we would have mana to spare and the encounters would be easy as pie to heal. If the encounter designers didn't design fights to test the healers raids could get by with bringing only 1 or 2 and then the dps requirement would have to go through the roof.

11/14/2011 11:06 AMPosted by Phaydre
It is annoying when we're short a healer so we bring in a pug or someone's alt and they feel the need to blow it out because they have something to prove. (Especially since I'm the only girl and the other person is usually a guy.) In order to avoid the inevitable "look, I did better than Phay!" I end up abandoning mana efficiency and responding with my own blowout performance. That's not due to game design tho; it just shows how competitive people are.


You should be able to link the overhealing meter to someone who is spamming everything to win the healing meters. However, since regen is overpowered overhealing doesn't matter. That is due to game design.
85 Blood Elf Priest
5345
/changebacktobc/wotlkstyles

problem solved!


Wish they would, they want to listen to the vocal minority though on wanting slow style "triage" healing. Least with firelands its back to a point of me being able to enjoy healing again.
85 Tauren Priest
11575
11/14/2011 04:59 PMPosted by Wasselin
We agree, except that we can ZOMAOEHEALALLTHETHINGS. We have the mana to do that. So if we didn't have to do that we would have mana to spare and the encounters would be easy as pie to heal. If the encounter designers didn't design fights to test the healers raids could get by with bringing only 1 or 2 and then the dps requirement would have to go through the roof.


My point was, it's possible to design encounters in such a way that we SHOULDN'T have to spend all our mana on AoE heals, AoE heals, and more AoE heals, while still challenging healers. They haven't done it yet. That's not a fault of the players, either. If they want triage healing, they need more stuff like Chimaeron or Baleroc (though obviously not implemented in exactly that fashion), where healers need to focus on multiple individuals in a short period of time, but not SUCH a short period where it necessitates Flash Heals to get by.
90 Human Warrior
10380
Wish they would, they want to listen to the vocal minority though on wanting slow style "triage" healing. Least with firelands its back to a point of me being able to enjoy healing again.


I want to comment on this because their is an important distinction that needs to be made.

"Triage" style healing does not mean SLOWER healing. It means more consistent healing. You could have all <1.0 second heals and have it work within a triage style design. Blizzard designed the healing model such that they tried to implement triage healing and at the same time slow down healing.

I think that they did need to slow down healing to a certain degree and I agree with you that where the gearing is currently with firelands feels about the right speed.

Take this idea as a "for instance"...
If they were to change your spells around such that you only had a quick efficient heal (~1.5 second cast time) and a slow big heal (~2.5-3.0 second heal), then you would have both that faster style of healing but at the same time be able to react to bursts of damage with a larger heal. This same quick cast vs long cast can be applied to other heals within your arsenal, such as CoH vs PoH and other such spells. Make the big heals bigger but more costly and make the efficient heals faster but less throughput.

85 Blood Elf Priest
5345
Alright so coming back to this not so tired and saying something I'll regret. I don't want "fake" triage on top of my triage. I already pick the spell that is going to stabilize and ensure a person isn't going to die. And I enjoy doing that in a fast big damage environment. I will never enjoy having to spam a tiny heal over and over and over, just to slowly bring a target up no matter how "fast" it is.

By the very nature of wanting to use a small "quick" efficient heal you ARE slowing it down. Cause damage output has to allow you time to do it. I find no fun in that, has nothing to do with hey at least I'm always casting something! That is not mentally stimulating to me, its a different play style for a different kind of player.
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