Raid healing is more stressful now.

90 Night Elf Druid
9605
[quote]

"Triage" style healing does not mean SLOWER healing.\


Ehhh I dunno. I distinctly remember healing about 90238409238402309x faster in wotlk. Now my filler is just nourish D:

SOME cool stuff is that I can do other things like switch forms or dps or use thorns or whatever, but it's this exact thing that allows groups to drop healers.... sooooooo ;(
90 Human Warrior
10380
Alright so coming back to this not so tired and saying something I'll regret. I don't want "fake" triage on top of my triage. I already pick the spell that is going to stabilize and ensure a person isn't going to die. And I enjoy doing that in a fast big damage environment. I will never enjoy having to spam a tiny heal over and over and over, just to slowly bring a target up no matter how "fast" it is.

By the very nature of wanting to use a small "quick" efficient heal you ARE slowing it down. Cause damage output has to allow you time to do it. I find no fun in that, has nothing to do with hey at least I'm always casting something! That is not mentally stimulating to me, its a different play style for a different kind of player.


If you are healing for >50% of the tanks health per heal like you were in wrath, then the encounters have to be designed around some sort of threat to tank death. This means that any tank gets hit twice in a row, they die. This is not fast paced or skillful to heal. It's simply stand there and bomb big heals on the tank the entire time. Do not heal anyone else. Everything can be going perfectly fine in an encounter, the next second you are running back because the boss managed to land two hits on the tank that didn't line up with your heals.

This was not fun in wrath. This is not something that should be promoted.

Since this was such a bad design at the end of wrath, the only logical reason that someone would like that style of healing is because they were casting very fast spells which is the reason I inferred that your desire to have that playstyle was because of the faster spells. Again, faster heals is not bad design, healing for >50% of the tanks health per heal is bad design.

Remember, the amount that you heal for directly impacts how the damage comes in a fight.

A tanks health should not be something comparable to a Yo-Yo. If you really like that playstyle, then you must be sadistic or something because I can't count how many times we were staring at death logs marveling at how the tank died in 0.4 seconds. It causes problems with disparities in the different tanking classes because of health, mitigation and cooldowns. It causes problems with the disparities in different healing classes because of single target healing throughput and mitigation cooldowns.

There's a million reasons why this is NOT a good model for healing and for why they moved away from it.

And just for the record, smaller heals does not equate to slower game play. It leads to more reactive gameplay which encourages more skill, more spell choice and more diversity in the way encounters are designed.

Ehhh I dunno. I distinctly remember healing about 90238409238402309x faster in wotlk. Now my filler is just nourish D:

SOME cool stuff is that I can do other things like switch forms or dps or use thorns or whatever, but it's this exact thing that allows groups to drop healers.... sooooooo ;(

The goal of triage healing isn't that you are sitting around doing nothing. If you are able to switch forms and DPS or whatever, then yes, you probably outgear the encounter and are taking to many healers. We 3 heal H-Rhyolith because it just makes the fight easier, but it means that about half the fight the healers are standing around with full mana.

The goal of triage healing is that you are casting all the time to sort of "auto-attack" health back up and then hit someone with a big heal if you fall behind. This is where the regen and throughput have screwed up this idea.
Edited by Duese on 11/15/2011 8:31 AM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
9605



The goal of triage healing is that you are casting all the time to sort of "auto-attack" health back up and then hit someone with a big heal if you fall behind.


I've always understood the concept they're going for. I still feel that in general I just play a lot slower now though. Not as spammy as it used to be IMO (which is what I loved the most about healing). T11 was quite a challenge though. I liked how they did it there for the most part :D

But... they can't do T11 style again, because those raid bosses were built for the hardcore of the hardcore, not their majority subscription base.
Edited by Gamex on 11/15/2011 9:09 AM PST
90 Human Warrior
10380
I've always understood the concept they're going for. I still feel that in general I just play a lot slower now though. Not as spammy as it used to be IMO (which is what I loved the most about healing). T11 was quite a challenge though. I liked how they did it there for the most part :D


I'm actually still not understanding what you loved about spammy healing. Like I said, spam healing can be done well in the triage style healing, the only difference is that people have more than just three states of health: Full health, Almost Dead and Dead.

What about that was fun? I'm actually curious about the specifics.

Here's the things I actually liked about the end of wrath healing:
- You could actually run out of mana, but only if you weren't managing it at all. So, you only had to marginally care about mana. If you ran out of mana, you had plenty of ways to get it back quickly.
- Spells were faster meaning that you could misclick and start a heal on a person and you could still land a heal on another person very quickly. (Or just hope that the tank dodges the next attack.)

Honestly, in Cata I feel like I'm trying to manage my mana too much but more specifically, I'm trying to manage my mana by NOT using it rather than any form of active regen or skill based mana returns. Their is such a big variance in mana costs for spells that every time I hit a big heal, I think to myself "well, I'm not getting that mana back for the rest of the fight."

It's interesting that on a fight like Baleroc, I can go from full mana to 0 mana in less than 25 seconds. I actually don't mind that if we were given a way to get that mana back given a time investment. Yes, I'd rather have a mana pool that does the Yo-Yo effect rather than the tanks health or the raids health. I think that would make things more interesting.
90 Night Elf Druid
9605


What about that was fun? I'm actually curious about the specifics.


How I spammed pom/bubble as fast as I possibly could, then used other abilities when unique situations came up. Or pom/renew/coh style was fun. I liked the PoH spam play style in ulduar a lot.

It was just more exciting. PoH healed 40% of people's health bars back then in a single cast. You had to pre-cast that crap for bursts from the boss. It was just "faster" and "more exciting" to me.
Community Manager
11/14/2011 09:01 AMPosted by Cazmilla
I might have read this wrong, but I thought they meant that int would no longer increase your mana pool as it does now, but having more spirit would mean more regen, and unless I'm very wrong I don't think it would change anything apart from making spirit more meaningful and making our mana increase come from regen instead of a more static mana pool. For now I'll content myself with believing that this could actually lead to more mana over a fight, and hope I'm not living in a fantasy dreamworld when the reality is that no matter how you gear your performance will never, ever change


Hey all, here's some more information from Ghostcrawler about this topic-

This is our intent. We aren’t trying to nerf healers across the board, and if we were, there are cleaner ways to do that. What we want to do is make the role of the stats less ambiguous. Currently, when Intellect drives mana pool and Spirit drives mana regen, then they are both longevity stats and interact in complex ways. With the change we are proposing, Intellect provides bigger heals and Spirit improves longevity. For healers, there should not always be a clear cut answer. Intellect may still be the superior stat, but not by as much as it is today. (Again, for healers -- DPS specs aren’t designed to run out of mana if they use their regen mechanics every now and then.) Mana pools can still be large (we are thinking 100,000 mana at level 85) so that it doesn’t feel too bizarre to existing casters and doesn’t feel too much like rage or energy.

In addition, we think fixed mana pools will help healers scale better with content. Some players seem to be interpreting the 5.0 design as healing 5-player dungeons should be easy but healing raids should be very hard. That is certainly a better situation than dungeons being very hard and raids being easy, but neither is really the goal. We want the increase in difficulty to be linear. If you can handle dungeons, you should be able to graduate to raids with the normal incremental gear improvements that most players get. This is particularly true of normal and Raid Finder difficulty settings. Heroic raiding will remain more challenging, but even in that case, keep in mind that the challenge of a raid encounter is often its complexity, which requires the group to learn and execute a lot of mechanics.

Gearing up will still be rewarding and meaningful. You’ll still feel as powerful as you do today. Intellect and Sprit will just do different things. If you find yourself routinely running out of mana on raid fights, you are probably either overhealing a lot or the group is taking a lot of damage that is intended to be avoidable. A fight like Phase 2 Beth’tilac on heroic is about as mana-intensive as things get, and that phase doesn’t last very long, so your mana-regen mechanics and cooldowns should be sufficient to keep you going. That won’t change in 5.0.
85 Dwarf Paladin
6750
11/15/2011 11:08 AMPosted by Nethaera
In addition, we think fixed mana pools will help healers scale better with content. Some players seem to be interpreting the 5.0 design as healing 5-player dungeons should be easy but healing raids should be very hard. That is certainly a better situation than dungeons being very hard and raids being easy, but neither is really the goal. We want the increase in difficulty to be linear. If you can handle dungeons, you should be able to graduate to raids with the normal incremental gear improvements that most players get. This is particularly true of normal and Raid Finder difficulty settings. Heroic raiding will remain more challenging, but even in that case, keep in mind that the challenge of a raid encounter is often its complexity, which requires the group to learn and execute a lot of mechanics.


I understand where blizzard is coming from. I thought it was a brilliant idea when it was announced and would equate with a healer buff for heroics and maybe a slight nerf compared to last tier of raiding in an expansion.

But PLEASE tell us that you will untie the regen benefit from intellect entirely and then boost spirit to compensate. Because the amount of regen you get with spirit and intellect is NOT simplicity.
Edited by Coagine on 11/15/2011 11:20 AM PST
85 Human Paladin
5075
This is my wish for healing:

Stop changing stuff.

Just leave it alone.

Back away from the design board.

Go work on a new non-combat pet questing system or something. Or come up with someway for people to get raid gear from farming herbs.

I absolutely loved my Mage prior to Cata. The constant yo-yo's of which spec is better in Cata drove me crazy and I got tired of it, so I swapped to a paladin so I wouldn't be asked to respec every week depending on which Dev got his way in the nerfs/buffs department that week.

Leave well enough alone. It's fine now. It was fine before. Just stop messing with it.
90 Human Priest
16170


What about that was fun? I'm actually curious about the specifics.


How I spammed pom/bubble as fast as I possibly could, then used other abilities when unique situations came up. Or pom/renew/coh style was fun. I liked the PoH spam play style in ulduar a lot.

It was just more exciting. PoH healed 40% of people's health bars back then in a single cast. You had to pre-cast that crap for bursts from the boss. It was just "faster" and "more exciting" to me.


This.

Now maybe I would have hated it if I were a tank healer. I don't know. But I loved loved loved playing a holy priest and raid healing in WotLK. There was only one time in the game I had more fun as a healer and that was during mid BC.
85 Night Elf Druid
5745
So what you're proposing is something that's never been done before - making mana based resources fixed (just like rogues/warriors/DKs/ferals) except you plan on doing that by keeping caster/healer spells on a variable scaling cost while keeping the actual number tied to the amount of mana players have, also on a variable scale.

Why don't they just cap it @ 100, and make mana regen like rogue energy. It seems like having a variable scale like that would only make things wonky (especially at levels other than the level cap).

To elaborate, there isn't a single class in the game right now is required to pay attention to their resources. Even end game healers who are adequately geared ignore their mana bar. The only real exception to this are healers who just hit the cap and are trying to gear up. They are the only part of the player base that is constantly watching their resource usage to make sure they are doing things right.

It doesn't make sense to have it that way. The only way playing the game feels compelling in any role, is if the player is able to focus on the throughput and the fight at hand. Having to pay attention to your resources does not add any compelling feelings and for the most part, players feel far too stressed out when they are in that position to have to watch their resources.
Edited by Baeloro on 11/15/2011 11:38 AM PST
90 Human Warrior
10380
This is our intent. We aren’t trying to nerf healers across the board, and if we were, there are cleaner ways to do that. What we want to do is make the role of the stats less ambiguous. Currently, when Intellect drives mana pool and Spirit drives mana regen, then they are both longevity stats and interact in complex ways.

The complexity isn't in the size of the mana pool though, the complexity is in the amount of different regen talents and abilities that work off of either intellect or spirit. If you remove any linking of regen to intellect, then only thing left by way of "regen" would be how much mana you start with at the beginning of the fight which is a drop in the pan when it comes to regen.

If we are talking about a 100k mana pool vs a 130k mana pool, we're only looking at 30k mana over the course of an entire fight that could be considered "regen". That's a 416-ish mp5 difference over the course of a 6 minute fight and vastly less on the many fights that last longer than that. The only way that's a significant number is if regen from spirit is cut to the floor which would just not be a fun environment to heal in.

With the change we are proposing, Intellect provides bigger heals and Spirit improves longevity. For healers, there should not always be a clear cut answer. Intellect may still be the superior stat, but not by as much as it is today. (Again, for healers -- DPS specs aren’t designed to run out of mana if they use their regen mechanics every now and then.) Mana pools can still be large (we are thinking 100,000 mana at level 85) so that it doesn’t feel too bizarre to existing casters and doesn’t feel too much like rage or energy.

The size of the mana pool doesn't matter. It's the scaling that matters. It really it what makes it different from a rage bar and an energy bar. If I have 100k mana or 10k mana, you are still setting everything at a percentage of your total resources which is exactly like rage and exactly like energy.

Yes, I agree that their is a problem with intellect being too important, but why not just take out intellect as a choice? I mean, it really makes me wonder why we are comparing a primary stat to secondary stats in terms of gems and enchants. A discussion came up on these boards a couple weeks ago asking for the removal of Int gems and it hit directly on this point.

90 Night Elf Priest
11200
I guess it will thin the herd even more, Hippo.

While I understand what Blizz is trying to do...it remains to be seen if these changes will be "fun and challenging" or "stressful and headache inducing"

Personally, I am all for healing being challenging. But I also do not want game time to give me a neck ache and headache every night, either.
90 Night Elf Druid
10440
The idea in theory would work, if all healers operated on a spirit based regen design. For example restoration druids, operate on a high int regen build. Allowing us to maintain very low spirit. We benefit far less from spirit then say, a restoration shaman. Changing the way that healers operate, in general are going to make us feel bland.

The constant design changes to healing classes is very troubling this expansion. I understand that you want to find a balance for healing classes, however its just not plausible to achieve based on our designs. We all play a niche in the healing model, and all healers perform their roles perfectly well.

I think Im part of the 1% of players that enjoy resto shamans in our raid, <3 that mana tide totem and the "you just screwed up my tranq totem"

TLDR: It ain't broken, dont' fix it
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
How about you address the root of the problem, Blizz, which isn't int. It's talents, skills and passives that replenish percentages of a player's total mana pool.

Fix that, and then consider whether you really need to flatten mana pools altogether. An increasing mana pool serves as a diminishing mechanism on Spirit.
90 Tauren Shaman
10345
I'm not on board the "stop changing healing" train right now simply because I don't think this change is going to have as much of an impact as I think many people believe it will.

I do feel like other aspects of the game have been changed too much already, and are only headed for more un-needed changes, like the talent trees and glyphs, and homogenization of buffs and utility abilities. I feel like an expansion necessitates new content, not a re-design.
8 Dwarf Priest
0
sure they'll figure out a way to make it "fun." or rather, easy enough that any grumbling about the system having changed can be put down hard and fast with a hefty dose of ridicule.

see guys? its new! its brand shiny new! and because they don't "interact in complex ways" anymore there's hardly any thought required! isn't that...wonderful?! who needs complexity!

editing: and seriously, intellect is just going to be the old spellpower now. so does that mean it will be reforgeable? lol. doing this, there's really no reason to have strength or agility anymore either. you might as well just make all the users of strength and agility default to a raw "attack power" stat. LOL. come on blizz, the game isn't simple enough yet!! try harder, i know you can make this a game even a two year old could play!
Edited by Kolas on 11/15/2011 11:47 AM PST
90 Tauren Druid
14205
Can you possibly balance 10 mans around having 2 healers rather than 3? It's kind of annoying having some fights require 3 whereas others only require 2 (not to mention fights that need 1 tank vs. 2)
85 Goblin Shaman
10470
I wish they would just stop freaking going off about how sound and incredible and how much was done with the Cataclysm Healing model. It stank. No one liked it, its a flawed system, and the longer they keep propping it up, the more healers that will quit or reroll Dps and Tanks.

Thats.. really about all I can say about it.


I enjoyed this expansion's approach to healing a great deal. I guess that makes me no-one.
85 Troll Priest
3640
Is there any plan to improve the active mana regen model? im quite interesting on this
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