Raid healing is more stressful now.

90 Human Warrior
10380


What about that was fun? I'm actually curious about the specifics.


How I spammed pom/bubble as fast as I possibly could, then used other abilities when unique situations came up. Or pom/renew/coh style was fun. I liked the PoH spam play style in ulduar a lot.

It was just more exciting. PoH healed 40% of people's health bars back then in a single cast. You had to pre-cast that crap for bursts from the boss. It was just "faster" and "more exciting" to me.


So, you spammed PoH. Can you somehow not do that now? Can you somehow not do that within a triage style fight?

The point of the triage is that you are still spamming this to heal people back up, but if someone takes additional damage from another mechanic of a fight, they aren't dead. You can choose to use other abilities when "unique" situations come and NOT fall so far behind in healing that you can't catch up. This system still promotes the proactive healing that you are also talking about but allows for reactive healing as well without just watching people die and nothing you can do about it.

Tank healing was terrible at the end of wrath because of the amount of micromanagement you had to deal with on every single boss ability.

Raid healing wasn't as broken but at the same time, raid healing was something that dictated a lot of the raids. It essentially caused every fight to either have a massive aoe damage ability or to have pulsing aoe the entire time. Because of the throughput of healers and the amount of mana available, it had to be designed into every aspect of the encounter. If you put this into an environment with spell costs on aoe spells are more significant, then they can free up encounter design to move away from the spam heal the raid the entire time. This allows encounters to be different.

Not to mention that I healed on a paladin and lord knows trying to deal with aoe healing during half the fights throughout that expansion was just about as fun as pulling teeth.

Lastly, I will mention that Ulduar really was the place where healing started to turn over in the "wrath" defined healing. You weren't really to the point that you never ran out of mana, and their was just enough balance between damage and healing that it wasn't as twitchy. After ulduar is when it really went downhill and that's most of what I'm talking about when I am mentioning this "wrath" healing model.
11/15/2011 11:08 AMPosted by Nethaera
DPS specs aren’t designed to run out of mana if they use their regen mechanics every now and then


Go tell that to the pvp shadow priests lol no please do.
15 Goblin Shaman
80
I wish they would just stop freaking going off about how sound and incredible and how much was done with the Cataclysm Healing model. It stank. No one liked it, its a flawed system, and the longer they keep propping it up, the more healers that will quit or reroll Dps and Tanks.

Thats.. really about all I can say about it.
90 Worgen Druid
11870
I healed through most of Wrath and enjoyed it. I healed a majority of the first tier of Cataclysm raids before they got nerfed. I don't enjoy healing nearly as much as I did in Wrath. I understand the current healing philosophy, but I don't think it has made healing "more fun" and I do prefer to have fun while playing computer games.
85 Orc Hunter
4660
At least resto shaman will be ready to go with the new model, the only healer to really care about mana as of right now :P
8 Dwarf Priest
0
also i like how complexity is insulted in the blue's first paragraph, and then lauded in the second.

int and spirit interact in complex ways = complexity must be bad

c'mon guys raids aren't about your stats, its about all that meaningful complexity it takes to learn them = complexity must be good

edit: also, what's up with this statement? "(Again, for healers -- DPS specs aren’t designed to run out of mana if they use their regen mechanics every now and then.) Mana pools can still be large (we are thinking 100,000 mana at level 85) so that it doesn’t feel too bizarre to existing casters and doesn’t feel too much like rage or energy."

you're basically saying it doesn't matter if dps have resources or not. oh, you give them a button or two to press during combat so they have, hmm, what's that word...some uhhh...complexity? added to their fight situation, but basically they essentially have infinite resources so they might as well have no resources.

and then you dive right into saying all you're doing to do to differentiate healer mana from rage or energy is to make it a bigger number. that has absolutely nothing to do with how it will ultimately feel. its a pathetic attempt to toss on a placating facade, but will not, in the end, actually meaningfully differentiate mana from energy, focus, or possibly whatever MoP rage ends up like.

just sad guys. really sad.
Edited by Kolas on 11/15/2011 11:57 AM PST
100 Blood Elf Paladin
16580
Back to the OP,

I still find this to be an issue. I am having to find out that as the raid progression reaches to Heroic Rag, some fights were easier, if not necessary to beat the boss. The entire time, we were gearing 3 healers, then all of sudden only 2 of us can heal. That left a gap in the healer-now-dps's gear as dps.

I see that the problem is, that the contents are really doable with less healing. While this culture is being perpetuated all across, healers are living in deeper and deeper stress.

85 Blood Elf Paladin
3945
11/15/2011 11:08 AMPosted by Nethaera
Currently, when Intellect drives mana pool and Spirit drives mana regen, then they are both longevity stats and interact in complex ways. With the change we are proposing, Intellect provides bigger heals and Spirit improves longevity. For healers, there should not always be a clear cut answer.


The problem with this statement in my mind (and for several other people I've talked to) is that we really like the complex interaction of stats. Also, it is already the case that Intellect makes bigger heals and Spirit adds longevity; its just that for some classes/spec Intellect adds more longevity than Spirit. There isn't a clear cut choice that is the same for every healer though. Instead of just nerfing Intellect (because that's effectively what is being done), perhaps look at the specs that don't need to use Spirit and try to fix Spirit for them.

11/15/2011 11:08 AMPosted by Nethaera
In addition, we think fixed mana pools will help healers scale better with content.


This just makes no sense. Sure, it may force us to concentrate more on pure scaling stats (i.e. Spell Power (and really it sounds a lot like the issue is that we need Spell Power back)), but I don't see how that alone will make us scale better than we do now.

11/15/2011 11:08 AMPosted by Nethaera
Gearing up will still be rewarding and meaningful. You’ll still feel as powerful as you do today.


Gearing will still be meaningful absolutely. I seriously question it being as rewarding or powerful as it is now though (which is saying a lot since we already feel weak compared to before). For the people who were raiding during ICC and RS, I don't think healing will ever feel powerful again. That may have been way too much healing power (and it probably was), but it is still something we remember and we feel the lack of it even now. As for rewarding, I think the two biggest rewards of getting better gear are watching your biggest heal get stronger and watching your mana pool grow. Since your plan is to remove one of those, it can't possibly be as rewarding as before.

11/15/2011 11:08 AMPosted by Nethaera
If you find yourself routinely running out of mana on raid fights, you are probably either overhealing a lot or the group is taking a lot of damage that is intended to be avoidable


Exactly how is nerfing Intellect going to stop DPS in raids from standing in avoidable damage?
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2380
I agree with the healing is busted in Cata. And now that the healers have the gear and have learned the fights for 4.2-4.3. Blizz is going shake the healing tree again to see how many healers will fall again. Blizz your changing the game for your top 2% of players that raid and going to stomp out the rest of us becasue of the change you made to how poeple get gear and the changes they can make to there gear when it come to stats. The stander player will never see any H-mode raids till 2 tiers have gone bye.
90 Draenei Shaman
8150
I don't put spirit on anything unless I've no choice now.
Mana pool is where it has always been since I started in BC.
Even when this goes into effect do you think anyone will really care about
spirit? Sure if I stand around for ten minutes I might be able to cast another heal with
my great amount of spirit, or if I have intel stacked I can just use smaller heals and use
less mana anyway.
It's the typical flawed Blizz thinking.
85 Orc Shaman
5985
11/15/2011 11:08 AMPosted by Nethaera
I might have read this wrong, but I thought they meant that int would no longer increase your mana pool as it does now, but having more spirit would mean more regen, and unless I'm very wrong I don't think it would change anything apart from making spirit more meaningful and making our mana increase come from regen instead of a more static mana pool. For now I'll content myself with believing that this could actually lead to more mana over a fight, and hope I'm not living in a fantasy dreamworld when the reality is that no matter how you gear your performance will never, ever change


Hey all, here's some more information from Ghostcrawler about this topic-

This is our intent. We aren’t trying to nerf healers across the board, and if we were, there are cleaner ways to do that. What we want to do is make the role of the stats less ambiguous. Currently, when Intellect drives mana pool and Spirit drives mana regen, then they are both longevity stats and interact in complex ways. With the change we are proposing, Intellect provides bigger heals and Spirit improves longevity. For healers, there should not always be a clear cut answer. Intellect may still be the superior stat, but not by as much as it is today. (Again, for healers -- DPS specs aren’t designed to run out of mana if they use their regen mechanics every now and then.) Mana pools can still be large (we are thinking 100,000 mana at level 85) so that it doesn’t feel too bizarre to existing casters and doesn’t feel too much like rage or energy.

In addition, we think fixed mana pools will help healers scale better with content. Some players seem to be interpreting the 5.0 design as healing 5-player dungeons should be easy but healing raids should be very hard. That is certainly a better situation than dungeons being very hard and raids being easy, but neither is really the goal. We want the increase in difficulty to be linear. If you can handle dungeons, you should be able to graduate to raids with the normal incremental gear improvements that most players get. This is particularly true of normal and Raid Finder difficulty settings. Heroic raiding will remain more challenging, but even in that case, keep in mind that the challenge of a raid encounter is often its complexity, which requires the group to learn and execute a lot of mechanics.

Gearing up will still be rewarding and meaningful. You’ll still feel as powerful as you do today. Intellect and Sprit will just do different things. If you find yourself routinely running out of mana on raid fights, you are probably either overhealing a lot or the group is taking a lot of damage that is intended to be avoidable. A fight like Phase 2 Beth’tilac on heroic is about as mana-intensive as things get, and that phase doesn’t last very long, so your mana-regen mechanics and cooldowns should be sufficient to keep you going. That won’t change in 5.0.


Ok Ghostcrawler, this time listen to us, because you didnt do it at the start of Cata and that was a bad decision.

Intellect is not ambiguos, and its not complex how they interact. Intellect grows our mana, our spell power and a little of our mana regen. No complexity. Spirit raised our mana regen with int.

We know our stats, we are confortable with them. Dont even try to tell us you are doing a favor to us with this, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT.

The mana pool increase gives us almost no longevity. In a world where our heals cost almost 10k mana, a 40k max mana increase is nothing, add very little to our longevity and you know this. The real problem is the mana regen mechanics tied with max mana.

There is NO REASON to make int not increase max mana anymore.

We are already scaling worse than any of the other roles, DPS see their numbers grow in amazing ways, while us keep slowly growing. Dont even DARE to blame us about the non linear difficulty of things.

You screwed up already in Cata, you changed our role in every single freaking expansion, yet you keep blaming us for your lack of ability to desing encounters.

STOP IT. Stop revamping us in every single expansion. MANY OF US WILL LEAVE, not just me if you do this !@#$.

We want heroic dungeons to be easy to heal with raid gear. Its common sense, it should happen, we are glad it happens and there is no problem with that.

We like having more flexibility to cast our heals at different styles while the expansion progress, dynamic desing is why we chose this role and why we love it.

Please, dont do this, this is a disrecpecfull way to treat us, you cant keep treating us like a fuse when you are not confortable with raid desings and difficulty. We arent just numbers, we are PEOPLE.

Again, i, and many, will leave the instant this goes live. Dont do this again, dont force us into leaving.
5 Gnome Mage
0
Forget everything that is now. Most people are looking at the "why" wrong, and are only concerned about how things are working at this time. Blizzard must make everything equal for LFR to work for more raids in the future. In order to do this, they have to make it just as likely that one person gets an upgrade with a mostly overall equal chance as another. They have to make specs that are distributed "equally" across all classes in order for the looting to be even. This will allow them to direct loot, and maybe even class specific quests/items/whatever, in the future. I have no doubt that this will be great once accomplished. So what may happen with INT or AGI or whatever, will only really matter once you see the finished product.
Edited by Washdadishes on 11/15/2011 12:05 PM PST
Community Manager
Here are a few more responses for you all (the Ghostcrawler is watching.)

This is my wish for healing:

Stop changing stuff.

Just leave it alone.

Back away from the design board.

Go work on a new non-combat pet questing system or something. Or come up with someway for people to get raid gear from farming herbs. I absolutely loved my Mage prior to Cata. The constant yo-yo's of which spec is better in Cata drove me crazy and I got tired of it, so I swapped to a paladin so I wouldn't be asked to respec every week depending on which Dev got his way in the nerfs/buffs department that week.


We hear you. Believe me. As we have said a few times lately, we understand that change (even change for the better) isn’t always desired by every player. We also don’t think it’s fair to make players live with problems and these forums are a testament to the number of things players would still like for us to change (which run the gamut from buffs or nerfs to mechanical changes or quality of life problems). The strategy that we are trying lately is to make both sides happy as much as we can and limit mechanical changes during an expansion (unless we think they really, really can’t wait) but use new expansions to fix problems.

The complexity isn't in the size of the mana pool though, the complexity is in the amount of different regen talents and abilities that work off of either intellect or spirit. If you remove any linking of regen to intellect, then only thing left by way of "regen" would be how much mana you start with at the beginning of the fight which is a drop in the pan when it comes to regen.


There shouldn't be any mana regen mechanics that work based strictly on Intellect. There are several that work based on max mana pool, but that is one of the reasons we want max mana to be fixed. If there are any Intellect-based mechanics I’m not remembering at the moment, we will convert those as well.

No one liked it, its a flawed system, and the longer they keep propping it up, the more healers that will quit or reroll Dps and Tanks.

I enjoyed this expansion's approach to healing a great deal. I guess that makes me no-one. [Quoting above.]


Yes, designs like this are subjective. There are players who preferred healing in Lich King and players, like some of the game developers, who prefer it in Cataclysm. Our goal is to try to make the game as fun as possible, and we use player feedback to influence those decisions, but as you can see, feedback is often contradictory. We ask you to keep in mind that it’s difficult for anyone on the forums to be able to speak on behalf of the community. It’s fine to state your opinion, but don’t muddy the issue by asserting that “everyone” agrees with you.
85 Worgen Priest
8005
OP:

If this is what you're dealing with, the problem has to do with your guild, not Blizzard. If your guild insists on making things needlessly stressful, it is their reaction to the changes that are causing you grief. My suggestion is to find a better guild (i.e. one that better suits you). However, if your main goal is to zerg down bosses as quickly as possible, and that is the kind of gameplay you want, then you will simply be forced to endure the stress of competitive behavior, in which case you have brought it upon yourself. Blizzard cannot help you with that, nor should they have to take it into account when balancing the game.
90 Human Warrior
10380
11/15/2011 12:10 PMPosted by Nethaera
There shouldn't be any mana regen mechanics that work based strictly on Intellect. There are several that work based on max mana pool, but that is one of the reasons we want max mana to be fixed. If there are any Intellect-based mechanics I’m not remembering at the moment, we will convert those as well.


Intellect is associated with a larger mana pool. A larger mana pool is associated with these mana regen mechanics.

Edit:
Just to be clear, their should be no regen abilities linked to our mana pools at all.

Can you confirm whether or not ANY regen abilities will still be linked to the size of our mana pools in the expansion and if so why?
Edited by Duese on 11/15/2011 12:17 PM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
6920
Yeah it won't be nearly as rewarding. Why? Because it's more invisible.

Like it or not, it's satisfying to see your Mana number increase over time. That's really what this is all about. It's taking something away for a reason that's relatively meaningless. You just delink Max. mana from mana regen. That's all you need to do. The additional mana gained during an expansion is little as compared to the additional regen you gain.

There's a bit more, of course. It's more attacks on healer QoL while at the same time there's a lot of emphasis on improving DPS and Tank QoL. The different things go in different directions.

Now, I personally think that Cata healing in and of itself was fine, even early on. Where it all went wrong, was the lack of challenging enrage timers. That is, 90% of content is balance to the casual observer, around healing, even when it's not. (The only exceptions are Maloriak and Balorac...there might be others I'm missing.) This is because of the lack of enrage timers. Is there a risk that groups just drop healers for more DPS? Sure. However, nerfing heals is not the way to do this. You just make sure there's enough healing that needs to be done that for progression content this isn't viable.

Shorter information. Hard enrage timers FORCE DPS players to learn how to play their class, taking strain off of healers. Increasing the difficulty without creating clear-cut goals for DPS players puts the difficulty, in the eyes of most players, onto the backs of healers.

So my suggestions remains as follows:

Having healers watch their mana is fine. However, it should be tuned pretty liberally. It should be relatively easy to maintain mana, as long as you're not spamming your most expensive spells and doing massive overhealing. The challenge should be putting the right heal in the right place at the right time. Do I have time for a 2.5 second heal? or will a quick 1.5 second heal get them out of the danger zone? Should I heal ranged or melee, with a knowledge of what damage is coming down the pipe. That's where the challenge should be.

Delink Max Mana from ALL regen mechanics. Make all regen mechanics based around Spirit.

Have challenging enrage timers at all content levels to encourage DPS players to learn how to play their class. This removes a LOT of the strain from healers, ideally, as it ensures that DPS is sufficient to down encounters before even a properly geared/played healer will even start to feel resource starved.

One problem is that it's difficult to come up with things that force tanks to play their class correctly, but I think by and large it's something that's not really that much of a problem, mainly because of the knowledge it takes to tank in the first place.

Less slow-burn deaths more one-hit kills. Yes, they are less pleasant. But it puts the blame on the individual and less on the healer, especially for LFD/LFR content.

And that's about it.

That is how you fix the problem. That's how you restore balance in terms of responsibility between the roles.

Edit: Yes, I'm saying Cata would have been perfectly fine and would have been half as stressful and tough on healers if there were a few Heroic 5-man bosses who had challenging enrage timers..not all of them..say one per Heroic, that were tuned around the expected DPS level, say 7-8k or so.
Edited by Karmaze on 11/15/2011 12:15 PM PST
85 Troll Shaman
10315
I'd like to point out that the biggest culprit of mana inflation is Replenishment, which is slated to be gone in MoP. Anyone that's a healer right now knows that, even keeping the same amount of Spirit as you has in 346 blues, suddenly now mana is nearly infinite. That's because we have roughly 50% MORE mana than we used to, fights are the same length, and Replenishment + Int being in the formula for regen effectively doubled our regen from those 346s. It adds more gameplay to have to start balancing Spirit with other secondary stats besides "hmmm, well I want 3k Mastery, and I don't need more than 2k Spirit, so pieces with Spirit are bad for me." In 2 short tiers I've gone from "omgomgomg need more Spirit" to "ew, Spirit on my gear?" This change will allow us to have 3-4 tier expansions with the current exponential gear growth model without automatically making mana trivial by that 3rd or 4th tier. The goal isn't to prop up the Cataclysm model...it's to change something that should have been done for the Cata model when it first came out.
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