Raid healing is more stressful now.

100 Dwarf Warrior
14290
I don't know why players are interpreting the change as increased difficulty without evidence that other healing mechanics won't be adjusted in kind. Or why the change to healing in 4.0.1 has been conflated with the tendency of damage in Cataclysm's launch and 4.2 to have been initially more punishing than the dead-average player or raider felt comfortable with.

I understand Blizzard's statements, in the simplest terms, to mean that early in Mists, healers will have smaller health pools to refill from damage in smaller increments or over longer periods of time. In Mists' last tier of content, larger health pools will be reduced by damage more severely, more frequently and/or for prolonged periods, but appropriate gear with Spirit comparable to Intellect will provide the regeneration necessary for a healer to perform.

(I suppose it's possible that larger casts may cost slightly more while regeneration compensates, so that the model remains stable from beginning to end — e.g., high Intellect draws 20% more for a Greater Heal, but high Spirit replenishes mana so quickly that a player is simply aware that he can cast a big enough spell to keep up with content).

This suggests that mana regeneration will be much faster than players are accustomed to, although I don't see an explicit acknowledgment of that from GC's posts. Proof of concept is also vague. My guess is that reasonable players will accept the system if they have more details, even if they can't articulate which ones will satisfy them.

As for why, I think I understand: Intellect is such a manifold stat that it dominates the decisions of developer and player alike. The analogy might be "gain staging," which is balancing devices in a sound signal chain to prevent distortion (if too strong) or noise (if too weak). Right now, Intellect is so overpowering that Spirit doesn't matter much for most specs, while it's disadvantageously important for a couple — and GC envisions that "[f]or [Mists] healers, there should not always be a clear cut answer."
Edited by Aedilhild on 11/18/2011 1:59 PM PST
85 Night Elf Priest
9090
The question I have asked, and which no Blue has to my knowledge ever answered, is why there has not been a greater effort to put balancing mechanics into the game encounters which more evenly distribute the stress among the roles, rather than just adding more and more and more to the backs of healers?

Is it just not something creative designers are up to?

Or is it because so few play Tanks they fear making them even fewer, and because so many play DPS, they think they risk losing fewer subs by just piling on the healers, instead of putting more pressure and stress on the popular DPS role?
85 Blood Elf Rogue
9245
So what you're proposing is something that's never been done before - making mana based resources fixed (just like rogues/warriors/DKs/ferals) except you plan on doing that by keeping caster/healer spells on a variable scaling cost while keeping the actual number tied to the amount of mana players have, also on a variable scale.

Why don't they just cap it @ 100, and make mana regen like rogue energy. It seems like having a variable scale like that would only make things wonky (especially at levels other than the level cap).

To elaborate, there isn't a single class in the game right now is required to pay attention to their resources. Even end game healers who are adequately geared ignore their mana bar. The only real exception to this are healers who just hit the cap and are trying to gear up. They are the only part of the player base that is constantly watching their resource usage to make sure they are doing things right.

It doesn't make sense to have it that way. The only way playing the game feels compelling in any role, is if the player is able to focus on the throughput and the fight at hand. Having to pay attention to your resources does not add any compelling feelings and for the most part, players feel far too stressed out when they are in that position to have to watch their resources.


I watch my energy all the time, and time it just right to line it up with awesome bursts; I wouldn't win many Arenas if i didn't line my bursts with my team's CCs. I watch and pool my energy, even if i just have to keep 15 energy to make sure I get my kick out after we dispel pally bubble. I know many friends who always talk about new ideas about rogues / F druids / Warriors about pooling and Energy / Rage control. I strongly disagree with you on makeing every 100 Energy, how would that be fair to Rogues, or other classes that want their unique talents / abilities / and how you perform them.
A routine I do in Arenas is glancing, what is that you ask, glance at your hp, energy , enemies, what enemies are casting and buffs/debuffs. I do this in different orders depending on whats going on. Watching your resources shouldn't stress you out if your doing it right. yes is a little nerve recking when your in arena and your healer is OOM, but that to me makes me work even harder so my partner(s) can drink / disperse / w.e. Think before you you speak.
87 Worgen Hunter
7135

GhostCrawler:
Having choices to get mana back is good. Standing around to regen mana is bad.

However, we still ultimately need a way that healers who are playing badly, trying to keep alive an undergeared / underskilled tank, or just tackling content that they're not yet ready for, can run out of mana to the extent that the encounter is over.



All IMO and I tried to avoid blanket statements. To the extent I failed I truly don't mean any part of this to blanket anyone's opinion but my own.

Healers playing badly need to fail but they ALSO NEED FEEDBACK ON WHAT THEY ARE DOING WRONG. Just running out of mana doesn't tell a new healer anything. Was the tank undergeared? Did people not stay out of the fire? Did the healer spam heals when they weren't needed? No idea.

Trying to keep alive an undergeared/underskilled tank? Hell, that used to be fun. It was a great measure of how far a healer had progressed in gear and experience if they could keep a less than perfect tank up (for example, while helping someone get geared without a brutal 2 hour fun). Even then it was possible to fail (well, in BC. WOTLK might and probably is a different story). This ties in somewhat to the pass/fail mechanics being a very bad way to check player skill. I don't like the fact that one mistake by one person can cause a wipe. A little more headroom (not much) would help folks learn the encounters and their roles.

Tackling content they're not ready for/underskilled: Why is running out of mana the only metric that can be used? Here's an idea: a boss mechanic that puts a slowly increasing debuff on the tank that lowers the amount of healing received. The increase is caused by 3rd party heals landing. Now you are severely punished for overhealing (it makes your future heals smaller) and you know exactly why that is happening and why it is a bad thing. Tanks also learn to use active mitigation/self-healing as their mitigation/heals don't cause the debuff to increase. You could end up having mana but not being able to keep the tank up if the debuff stacks too high because your heals are only landing for 1k and the tank has already blown their CDs trying to fend off the wipe.

I was fortunate to have healing mentors that healed in Vanilla who beat me with a nerf hammer every time I overhealed significantly. A lot of healers are not that fortunate and I would guess there are a lot fewer of those mentors or even the ones they taught around now. Healing should be challenging and engaging but you should also be able to learn it with a lot less stress and pain than you can currently in game.
85 Tauren Druid
7700
The question I have asked, and which no Blue has to my knowledge ever answered, is why there has not been a greater effort to put balancing mechanics into the game encounters which more evenly distribute the stress among the roles, rather than just adding more and more and more to the backs of healers?

Is it just not something creative designers are up to?

Or is it because so few play Tanks they fear making them even fewer, and because so many play DPS, they think they risk losing fewer subs by just piling on the healers, instead of putting more pressure and stress on the popular DPS role?


This falls more to raid/instance designers rather than the class designers. I am not sure if the read the raid/instance forums for player sentiment, but if they do you can head over to http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/1011645/ and probably provide feedback on how you feel dungeons and raids put undue pressure on healers rather than tanks or dps.
81 Gnome Death Knight
10100
The question I have asked, and which no Blue has to my knowledge ever answered, is why there has not been a greater effort to put balancing mechanics into the game encounters which more evenly distribute the stress among the roles, rather than just adding more and more and more to the backs of healers?

Is it just not something creative designers are up to?

Or is it because so few play Tanks they fear making them even fewer, and because so many play DPS, they think they risk losing fewer subs by just piling on the healers, instead of putting more pressure and stress on the popular DPS role?


One small part of this is Active Mitigation. Tanks will be forced to play well to reduce damage done to them. It will no longer be mostly passive plus hitting a few CDs.

11/18/2011 01:57 PMPosted by Aedilhild
As for why, I think I understand: Intellect is such a manifold stat that it dominates the decisions of developer and player alike. The analogy might be "gain staging," which is balancing devices in a sound signal chain to prevent distortion (if too strong) or noise (if too weak). Right now, Intellect is so overpowering that Spirit doesn't matter much for most specs, while it's disadvantageously important for a couple — and GC envisions that "[f]or [Mists] healers, there should not always be a clear cut answer."


I agree.

Some people are griping that dps classes have a clear cut stat choice (Int/Str/Agi) but that may well be not so clear cut in Mists as well. Perhaps it simply hasn't been announced yet?
100 Troll Druid
14400
I can't let this thread go by without comment. I have three healers - a shaman, a paladin and this druid, all raid geared (this one is 378 ilvl). Ghostcrawler, healing is NOT FUN. It is highly stressful and guess who is blamed for everything bad that happens? My raid stats show a lot of over healing due to aoe mechanics. I get blasted for the overhealing stat. If I hold back and use primarily direct JIT heals on my toons, I get blasted for low output. If I have to run from a lava wave (or other) and people die while I'm moving that's my fault. If I don't run and get hit, I get fined and blessed out. So it's stressful. I sometimes wonder why I do this at all.

The original comments on healing in Cataclysm led one to think that "walking wounded" (not full healed) would be the standard for healing in most fights. It never worked. People die too fast from burst damage. They need to be at full health. And the healing mechanic in 5 man dungeons is substantially different and also not fun.

So -- maybe I will just be a dps. Simple job. Focus on target and kill it, stay out of environmental trouble. Hope the healer can fix you up. Get blamed for much less. Have MORE FUN!
100 Night Elf Druid
9410
Bleh, just enjoy 4.3 IMO.

Get mad about MoP when it's closer eh?


No, if we do that then it will be too late. I'm here trying to prevent them from kicking me out of this game.


ur prob right ;(
Edited by Gamex on 11/18/2011 3:08 PM PST
100 Night Elf Druid
9410
I can't let this thread go by without comment. I have three healers - a shaman, a paladin and this druid, all raid geared (this one is 378 ilvl). Ghostcrawler, healing is NOT FUN. It is highly stressful and guess who is blamed for everything bad that happens? My raid stats show a lot of over healing due to aoe mechanics. I get blasted for the overhealing stat. If I hold back and use primarily direct JIT heals on my toons, I get blasted for low output. If I have to run from a lava wave (or other) and people die while I'm moving that's my fault. If I don't run and get hit, I get fined and blessed out. So it's stressful. I sometimes wonder why I do this at all.

The original comments on healing in Cataclysm led one to think that "walking wounded" (not full healed) would be the standard for healing in most fights. It never worked. People die too fast from burst damage. They need to be at full health. And the healing mechanic in 5 man dungeons is substantially different and also not fun.

So -- maybe I will just be a dps. Simple job. Focus on target and kill it, stay out of environmental trouble. Hope the healer can fix you up. Get blamed for much less. Have MORE FUN!


Your raid actually gets mad at you for overheals? Ya gotta tell me who the nut is that's sayin this to ya :)
Edited by Gamex on 11/18/2011 3:09 PM PST
85 Orc Shaman
8605
Mana regen for a shaman in its current form is WAY to strong. It is VERY rare, even attempting new content it would seem, that I have an issue controlling my mana pool. This isn't due to the other healers in the group being better then me as I am still at the top of HPS with the least overhealing done in almost each fight, its caused by my over powered mana regen (my mana regens at a rate faster than it is required to expense, in most cases with Mana Tide rarely being used...).

Increasing damage output is a very bad way to counter this as it opens too many issues of instant death (fire is bad!). Decreasing healing effectiveness is a very bad way to counter this as it opens too many issues of controlable damage (an aoe phase, tank rotations caused by debuffs, etc).

Control my mana regen through fixed mana pool and regen ability will help insure I continue to perform at a level required for the content. Fights should get easier as the group understands the mechanics and gear levels increase, but not at the expence of effort required on part of the healer.

If I don't have to manage my mana pool, damage can almost be completely ignored. Welcome back WotLK style of boring raiding...



Or, stick with me on this one, or you just overgear nerfed content?

Close enough?


Not quite. I have been able to heal this way since the start of the expansion doing heroic dungeons and raids within the first week of its release.
90 Draenei Shaman
10525
In my personal opinion, i prefer Cata healing over wrath, wrath healing was boring because once you got a little bit of gear, you could literally heal raids and NEVER go oom and still keep people alive (disc priest spamming flash heal comes to mind) and that was boring and a bad design in my opinion. I heal hard mode firelands every week (before and after nerf) and i really like the thought of having to manage my mana to a higher extent or go oom because i was careless. It makes it more interesting and fun to me. I like the idea of "if i go oom, then i need to be more careful than i was"
85 Orc Shaman
8605
BAD Resto Shaman have BAD mana regen and control over their mana pools.

TC is a pvp spell at best and has NEVER been needed to heal pve content.

Any Resto Shaman using a lightning bolt to gain mana realy needs to check their heals used for that fight.

Top 3 heals for a Resto Shaman in most given situations should always be Riptide (great heal at low mana cost), Healing Wave (great heal at low mana cost), and Healing Stream Totem (so over powered its mind blowing).

You can assume I have only healed the content after it was nerfed if you want but my guild and I know otherwise.
Edited by Smokesacks on 11/18/2011 3:41 PM PST
100 Night Elf Druid
13700
11/17/2011 03:22 PMPosted by Masochism
In the last xpac, we saw healing reach disproportionate levels compared to health bars, and raids became a spamfest where everyone had to be topped off almost immediately after taking damage. This xpac saw healing nerfed significantly relative to health pools, which only served to stave off its exponential growth for a matter of time. In DS we're probably going to see a similar healing style to what we saw in Wrath, with massive, raid-wide aoe damage pulsing quite often and requiring constant aoe healing to keep up.


Yes, we did... at the end of the expansion when the goal was to let everybody see the content, when every alt and pug was supposed to be successful, and Blizz was nerfing content faster than druids could spam Rejuv. For ONLY MYSELF I think that allowing players to outgear an instance is much more fun than nerfing content. Why? Because average-geared groups coming in late face the same challenges that earlier groups did. Content doesn't become a "faceroll" for them (ok, me) on the third week of the month (or whenever the nerf is done). The ever increasing pool of players who have done the raid means that, if I really need help, I have a growing number of friends who are better geared and can come along to help us out by "topping us off almost immediately after taking damage". In a way this promotes "community" by encouraging players to develop relationships with others outside their regular raid group.
85 Human Priest
5860
Mana regen for a shaman in its current form is WAY to strong. It is VERY rare, even attempting new content it would seem, that I have an issue controlling my mana pool. This isn't due to the other healers in the group being better then me as I am still at the top of HPS with the least overhealing done in almost each fight, its caused by my over powered mana regen (my mana regens at a rate faster than it is required to expense, in most cases with Mana Tide rarely being used...).

Increasing damage output is a very bad way to counter this as it opens too many issues of instant death (fire is bad!). Decreasing healing effectiveness is a very bad way to counter this as it opens too many issues of controlable damage (an aoe phase, tank rotations caused by debuffs, etc).

Control my mana regen through fixed mana pool and regen ability will help insure I continue to perform at a level required for the content. Fights should get easier as the group understands the mechanics and gear levels increase, but not at the expence of effort required on part of the healer.

If I don't have to manage my mana pool, damage can almost be completely ignored. Welcome back WotLK style of boring raiding...


I really tried to read this. I promise, I did. But I couldn't get past the first sentence without bursting into hysterical laughter.

Firestyle put it better than I could, and was much nicer than I would be at this time of the morning before I've had caffine.


I agree my shammy heal was just a headache to play during Cata, like I had to work twice as hard for less results, prefer healing on my druid and priest because it feels good and that's important to me. My pally healer turned into a tank because I'm lazy and don't feel like judging for mana, plus pally tanking is fun even in LFD. There are a lot of things they can do to fix Shammies, excellent suggestions, and one would be a 40 yard radius on chain heals. Sorry, but spamming chains was fun for me too. :)

Sorry Bliz I don't want to be challenged, I want to bomb the crap out of the raid with healing love and blow the crap out of your bosses. That is Fun.
Edited by Zayni on 11/18/2011 3:48 PM PST
90 Tauren Shaman
11215
11/18/2011 03:33 PMPosted by Smokesacks
BAD Resto Shaman have BAD mana regen and control over their mana pools.


Um. No.

I still use HW as a filler spell but GHW is the primary heal in heroic content. It has to be, the damage amounts you are expected to heal are simply not healable with HW. Whether you use TC or not, HW cannot be your primary heal. You will never heal H Beth or H Alys or well, anything but shannox and domo (which is what you have.) just using HW and riptide. Riptide's a good spell, HST should always be down, but use those GHW's.
85 Blood Elf Priest
4205
11/18/2011 02:12 PMPosted by Miggea
I was fortunate to have healing mentors that healed in Vanilla who beat me with a nerf hammer every time I overhealed significantly. A lot of healers are not that fortunate and I would guess there are a lot fewer of those mentors or even the ones they taught around now. Healing should be challenging and engaging but you should also be able to learn it with a lot less stress and pain than you can currently in game.


There are a few of us still around and I will happily help out new priests going so far as running with them on an alt to rate them or give them pointers. The problem is not many people are willing to take on the brutal feat that is going from "healing good enough" to "The Paragon of the Health Bar"
85 Night Elf Priest
9090

GhostCrawler:



All IMO and I tried to avoid blanket statements. To the extent I failed I truly don't mean any part of this to blanket anyone's opinion but my own.

Healers playing badly need to fail but they ALSO NEED FEEDBACK ON WHAT THEY ARE DOING WRONG. Just running out of mana doesn't tell a new healer anything. Was the tank undergeared? Did people not stay out of the fire? Did the healer spam heals when they weren't needed? No idea.

Trying to keep alive an undergeared/underskilled tank? Hell, that used to be fun. It was a great measure of how far a healer had progressed in gear and experience if they could keep a less than perfect tank up (for example, while helping someone get geared without a brutal 2 hour fun). Even then it was possible to fail (well, in BC. WOTLK might and probably is a different story). This ties in somewhat to the pass/fail mechanics being a very bad way to check player skill. I don't like the fact that one mistake by one person can cause a wipe. A little more headroom (not much) would help folks learn the encounters and their roles.

Tackling content they're not ready for/underskilled: Why is running out of mana the only metric that can be used? Here's an idea: a boss mechanic that puts a slowly increasing debuff on the tank that lowers the amount of healing received. The increase is caused by 3rd party heals landing. Now you are severely punished for overhealing (it makes your future heals smaller) and you know exactly why that is happening and why it is a bad thing. Tanks also learn to use active mitigation/self-healing as their mitigation/heals don't cause the debuff to increase. You could end up having mana but not being able to keep the tank up if the debuff stacks too high because your heals are only landing for 1k and the tank has already blown their CDs trying to fend off the wipe.

I was fortunate to have healing mentors that healed in Vanilla who beat me with a nerf hammer every time I overhealed significantly. A lot of healers are not that fortunate and I would guess there are a lot fewer of those mentors or even the ones they taught around now. Healing should be challenging and engaging but you should also be able to learn it with a lot less stress and pain than you can currently in game.


Why is there so much focus on making the failure/encounter be over be on the backs of the healers?

Why is there not equal focus to it being on the backs of the Tanks and the DPS?

The DPS role in particular seems to be exempted from all the stress and responsibility.
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
4210
You know..I think this happened in Everquest awhile back. They broke the game with an Xpac..Then turned right around and released another Xpac to try and fix the game, only to have it break the game even more. So! I'm waiting to see what happens. *Grabs a bag of popcorn* Anyone want any?
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