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Just stop. I haven't heard of any mass riots of Tanks demanding "different" or "better" gameplay, yet you've targeted them for changes. This all really smacks of "we sorta had a class vision in Classic, but changed it in Wrath... sorta... and again in Cata... and now again, kinda..."
I'm really dreading it. Relearning everything coupled with the complete lack of anything actually new for me as a warrior tank sucks. I can't get Avatar simply because the big hook at 90 will be a talent (Shockwave) that will be taken away from me for 5 levels even though I've had it for years and will be given back after a long-!@# stupid quest grind.
You know, all this crap just seems like a proving ground/test run for that new mmo Titan they are supposed to be working on.
Edited by Kapono on 11/15/2011 1:11 PM PST
Right now healers scale by something like: efficency x regen x mana pool, because of the way so much regen is linked to mana pool size and the way mana pool size expands. Efficiency itself is exponential as it scales around Spellpower x Crit x Mastery (usually). At the same time throughput also scales exponentially around Spellpower x Haste x Mastery (usually)
DPS however only scales in throughput (DPS), though very strongly (because they only have to gear for throughput and all their stats multiply together). Thus this change brings healers more into line with DPS by reducing their scaling to efficiency and regen, and de-linking them somewhat (right now Int giving a bigger mana pool and thus more regen means that Int scales with itself very strongly).
As it stands healers scale very, very strongly with gear, so if you make 5-man heroics doable for them they're very powerful in late-tier heroic gear, and if you keep them reined in late in an expansion healing the 5-mans becomes very, very hard. Weaker scaling should make this less extreme, which will be a good thing.
If this is the course that has already been chosen, is "triage" ever going to matter for raid healing?
Right now, if anyone needs to do a ton of healing, they are still locked into a hit a spell on cd, and spam some single target spells (generally speaking). Is there going to be anyway to dump my mana bar and do alot of healing for a short term?
This limited mana pool idea makes me think that disc priests are going to be either unrecognizable from their current form, or they will be in a world of hurt. One of the things that really stands out about disc priests is their large mana pool, and large amount of regen. Without either of those they will have to go under a huge playstlye change or they will be brought for PW:B, and thats it.
10 Troll Druid
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
If it ain't broke, break it so we can make it better.
2 million users guys. 2 million. I don't know why they left. But I wouldn't be surprised if many of them said "We got tired of having to re-learn our class every patch."
How radically do you really think you can change the game every expansion and still expect to keep players? Are you truly so myopic that you think that if players disagree with you on the forums, they can be shuffled off as the "vocal minority" and that if people don't bother to comment, they are okay with the changes? Don't you think that, by now, people have learned that commenting on the forums is just going to invite dismissal from the developers and trolling from the other players?
Now is the time - now - to stop trying to dictate how everyone plays the game and start trying to really listen to what the players are telling you they like and do not like. Don't keep selling the game to yourselves. Unless you want to be the only ones still playing it.
You may not mind having to relearn every patch/exp but others do. Thing is they are tweeking too many classes and such and players are sick of the balance changes that in the end mean they have to relearn stuff just for them to change it again 3-6 months later. Like i said many healers i know can heal in cata but choose not to because they are sick of being nerfed and or having other stuff changed. Who wants to relearn there class every 3-6 months?
Blizz needs to stop fixing stuff that aint broken and stop changing stuff for the sake of pvp. I know a few ppl in my guild that are sick of all the changing blizz does and are on the edge of quitting. I know i know the same old let them quit, they cant hack it blah blah blah. But the more of them that quit the less likely i am to stick around, and so on and so on.
Except what spell do shaman have that will cost 30,000 mana? The difference is that Rogues/Warriors/DKs have abilities that take up large %s of their resource pool. Up to 60% of it.
Unless they make some crazy changes to mana costs the most expensive spell shaman have costs 11k mana (I think?). Which is a much smaller % of the healer's total resource pool. Conversely Energy/Rage/Runic Power will all regen much faster than mana.
These are minor difference yes, but they can result in major differences in the decisions you make with that resource. A Rogue for instance very rarely has to hold off on using an ability to allow time for his energy to regen. He uses it as fast as he possibly can.
A healer on the other hand can cast many more spells consecutively than a rogue but has to be more careful about running out of mana. This will most definitely lead to completely different choices on how to spend the two resources.
Conceptually they are very similar but why does that matter if it then leads to completely different gameplay?
Well- something like 1.7 million people didn't think it was fun anymore - I kinda doubt they are gonna listen to 12 people in a thread.
There shouldn't be any mana regen mechanics that work based strictly on Intellect. There are several that work based on max mana pool, but that is one of the reasons we want max mana to be fixed. If there are any Intellect-based mechanics I’m not remembering at the moment, we will convert those as well.
Couldn't say it better myself. Innervate/Hymn of Hope/Divine Plea/Rapture/Shadowfiend as well as others I can't think of all regenerate mana based on your max mana, since int increases your max mana ... int = mana regen. The easiest solution to this without messing with max mana is to change many of these abilities/talents. Make them work similar to mana tide and regenerate mana based on spirit and not a percentage of your max mana and there we go, spirit is actually worth it and int offers 0 mana regen.
Innervate could regenerate mana based on the casters spirit to the target (with a min fixed amount for ferals), shadowfiend could be shadow only and hymn of hope could be buffed. Rapture could give more mana based on a % of your spirit ... etc etc etc
Increasing our mana pools allows for more room for error without too much worry that some mistakes will bite us in the butt later on. It also makes it feel like were becoming stronger healers with more mana at our disposal. Having a fix mana pool means we get gear but we need to be just as stingy on what and when we heal even when were all decked out on epics because our heals will still take the same % of mana.
Edited by Trinko on 11/15/2011 1:24 PM PST
I'm also curious where all these people are that are clamoring for flat mana pools.
They dont, but dont tell blizz that, because they know the truth dont you know.
They can read minds :)
Edited by Ranker on 11/15/2011 1:24 PM PST
Neth, if you can make the graduation from dungeon to heroic dungeon somewhat easier than it was in Cata, that is a change I can believe in. MoP is quite a ways off, and I'm not going to yell or wave my arms and scream "NO!!" when nothing is set in stone yet.
I have been a raid healer since BC when I first hit max level, and the only time that was as stressful as stepping up from regular dungeons to heroics in Cata was when we tried to do it back in BC! The step up was HUGE in BC, nearly non-existent in Wrath, and Cata... well, it was big. I honestly had to step back and take a few days off and think if I was good enough under the Cata system to cut it. I was ooming left and right, players were dying and I honestly felt pretty worthless at that point. That's not a fun thing in any game.
I stepped back from healing heroics for about a week around that Christmas after Cata was released to think if I could handle it. Then my guild's first raid date in January was announced and I made myself go back in, and it gradually started to get easier as I acquired the 346 gear. But I suspect that rather harsh transition cost the game quite a few healers because the step was quite high. If you can ease that initial transition a bit, you will probably be in a good place. Now, it's easier, we are deep into the xpac, most of us have craftables and BoE's waiting for our alts as they hit 85, so they can jump right in with good gear to support their performance. But if that first transition can be eased a bit, that part would be a good thing.
I love Cataclysm healing, and I think people who complain about it are haters.
If Blizzard were to ever go back to a WoTLK model, where I'm assigned to heal the tank because of Beacon of Light and spamming ridiculously fast to tacky proportions, I would probably leave the game.
I think that Blizzard has done a great job with Cataclysm healing. Blizzard knows that Spamming PoH relentlessly is poor design. Blizzard knows spamming HL, CH, or anything else was tacky.
That said, the one thing I really wanted to send out to Ghostcrawler, because I really want to get his and the developer's thoughts on these things:
Complex for you to balance or complex for players to understand? I don't think I can believe any player has a hard time getting what intellect or what spirit does now.
Doing dungeons and doing raids are two different things, and I don't understand why you want them to be linear. They are similar in that they both are PVE, but I know players who do dungeons just because that's their gameplay.
I can understand the desire to link them together, but if what you're getting at is that LFR and Normal raids will be just larger heroics than no thanks. That'll just create an even larger gap between heroic and normal, unless you're planning to nerd the difficulty of those too.
Also, have you considered that making heroics/normal raids linear would give players the feeling of 'having' to do it now?
Also, I would assume that when people think of "Intelligence," they think of mana. Isn't it pretty common in most RPGs to associate increasing mana with Intellect? If it's just going to increase the power of our spells, we might as well just have spell power back.
Edited by Practical on 11/15/2011 4:39 PM PST
13 Human Warlock
An issue that never gets attention (especially for high-end raiding) is the # of healers needed for different fights, and this proposed change for MoP will only aggravate it imo.
Imo needing 6-7 healer for a fight like H Beth and 3-4 for HBaleroc, HDomo & HRag kills a healing core. Progressing for 5-6 weeks on a boss encounter like H Rag with 3 healers when the other 3-4 on the roster only get to raid farm content (which takes like 2 hours to do) is BAD DESIGN imho. An NO...the majority of ppl dont get to OS in a lot of raiding guilds.
Of the 7 healers who started in my guilds FL...3 quit WoW becasue they got bored of raiding 2hours a week...in a hardcore top 15 us guild. Is it normal that an encounter make customers quit?
How will this MoP change help any of this?
Raid healing is stressful now because of raid cooldowns. Encounters are designed for their use, and they are so powerful in some cases (Tranquility, 4.3 Holy Divine Hymn, Power Word: Barrier) that pressing those buttons at the right time makes far too large of an impact, and what you're doing the rest of the time feels far too weak and like you're struggling to keep up (as a Priest or Shaman at least).
Balancing around the absence of raid cooldowns - and removing them - is the single best thing Blizzard could do for the healing game. Your other heals would feel more important. Raid damage wouldn't need to be quite so insane, and players wouldn't feel like they are treading water or risking the death of their entire raid by trying to play efficiently when they aren't using raid cooldowns.
If they need to exist, they need to belong exclusively to tanks... you know, the ones who are supposed to be protecting the group. That way, you could balance around having far fewer of them, and healer spell choice could feel important again.
I don't know about you, but every time I press Barrier or Tranquility on my healers, I don't feel "awesome". I feel like I'm using an ability that is far too powerful for a player to have. I feel like what I just did is a large part of why healing is so stressful.
Raid cooldowns are a large part of why 25 player raids can cut back to 5 or 4 or even 3 healers for a lot of content, especially those belonging to DPS.
Raid cooldowns only necessitate themselves. Having them means late Rhyolith and Beth etc. as well as Ultraxion and Zon'ozz and so on are designed to force you to have many strong ones as you can to be successful. Pressing Tranquility does not make you a good player, and yet you'd think it does seeing how it trivializes raid damage. Please get rid of these kinds of abilities, they are poisoning the game.
Edited by Ashunera on 11/15/2011 1:29 PM PST
Lately? That's been the MO since WotLK at least.
Which, in essence, means the game isn't really being 'designed' anymore, but is really just a profit-driven vehicle that tries to placate and pander in order to keep the revenue incoming as, possibly, more talented or interested Blizzard Men are working on 3 other games.
Have you folks in Irvine notice just how often World of Warcraft is used nowadays when people in society want to make typical disparaging comments on youth wasting their time and lives? Sad thing is, with what you've turned this game into the last few years, they are correct. I would have argued against them in 2004-2007. Now? This game is pretty much a microcosm of our current deficiencies.
But I get it. Adding in a THIRD difficulty to raiding isn't pandering to non-interested people, who truthfully the last thing they need is more people making life 'easier' or more 'convenient' for them, at all is it? Nah, that's good 'game design'. Man, I get that you have to take a certain company line when posting on forums (truth be told, I think Neth is the best CM in all of the MMO's) but GC really seems like he's intoxicated on his own Kool-Aid at this point in time.
This game sold out a truly passionate and healthy gamer culture with WotLK. If anything, the healing changes in Cata are one of the much needed changes so that every single aspect of this game doesn't become aimed at the Lowest Possible Common Denominator.
Carry on, ATVI has some revenue forecasts to beat.
And what makes it such that your large pool can do that? It's not the pool itself, as its size increase only cover a few more casts. No, it's the regeneration that you get from that huge pool. As long as Blizzard increases the Spirit based regen to compensate for the loss (or major nerfing) of Replenishment and other percentage-based regen mechanics the effect will be exactly the same as the current system, though probably not as pronounced (as reducing the extent of the longevity scaling was one thing mentioned as being behind this change).
I wanna see q4 in a few months.... I think thats gonna be the real sign one way or another.
But i dont think they know what fun is anymore.
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