Raid healing is more stressful now.

8 Dwarf Priest
I don't feel anyone here can make a meaningful post about this topic. The problem is the change to how Intelligence works is being made in conjunction with the overhaul in talents, the redefinition of specs, and the possible implementation of "The Great Squish."

We are trying to offer input into something for which we have no reference points. Let's not complain about the meal before the menu has been printed.

this exact same logic can be used to argue the devs shouldn't ever come up with new ideas. unfortunately you can't see that, and so you keep spouting stuff like this in the hopes of getting people to shut up.
100 Draenei Shaman
If I'm a shaman (and I am) and I have a mana bar with 100,000 possible points, and then I push a button that costs me 30,000 of those points, it will take a certain amount of time for those points to come back (based on my regen mechanics).

Except what spell do shaman have that will cost 30,000 mana? The difference is that Rogues/Warriors/DKs have abilities that take up large %s of their resource pool. Up to 60% of it.

Unless they make some crazy changes to mana costs the most expensive spell shaman have costs 11k mana (I think?). Which is a much smaller % of the healer's total resource pool. Conversely Energy/Rage/Runic Power will all regen much faster than mana.

These are minor difference yes, but they can result in major differences in the decisions you make with that resource. A Rogue for instance very rarely has to hold off on using an ability to allow time for his energy to regen. He uses it as fast as he possibly can.

A healer on the other hand can cast many more spells consecutively than a rogue but has to be more careful about running out of mana. This will most definitely lead to completely different choices on how to spend the two resources.

Conceptually they are very similar but why does that matter if it then leads to completely different gameplay?

The numbers were arbitrary and fake (I said as much) in order to show that more zeroes doesn't really make bigger numbers when you're talking about percentages of a non-expandable base number.

Let me put it a different way:

Under the current system my base mana is a fixed number and then my intellect expands on that number. So my mana fully equipped is in the neighborhood of 122k and Healing Rain (my most expensive heal) costs 10,130 mana or about 8% of my total mana

My base mana is 25,235 (+0 int) that's just the mana I have from being a draenei shaman at level 85. Healing Rain still costs 10,130 or about 40% of my base mana (at this time, my total mana as well).

See what happened? Now instead of a single healing rain not really hurting me that much (and I'd be using other heals at the same time because HR by itself wouldn't be good enough) a single healing rain is now not quite half my mana bar.

Under the new system, my mana is still small and my heals are still very expensive in comparison. Now use my previous comparison to a rogue's energy bar and this gets a little easier to understand. Just because the number is really big (20k instead of 100) doesn't mean the percentage of use is any smaller when you're talking about a fixed base

EDIT: How I math?
Edited by Visenya on 11/15/2011 1:43 PM PST
10 Undead Hunter
well as a healer you are always the person who has to deal with overtuned encounters when they are released

it's why there are so few people who want to raid heal endgame.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
My main concern is that while addressing their goals... they completely let the idea of what is fun for a healer fly right over their heads. I believe it was another thread about this same topic where someone suggested that this change will actually slow the healing game down. I can totally see that as right now most casters are always actively casting something, even if it means going into overhealing.

If I had to pause because of regen mechanics on a normal basis... subjectively speaking, that's not fun. I do not want a return to the 5 second rule days. It's fun to have to choose which spells to cast, but it's not fun to be handicapped by regen mechanics. One of the most "un-fun" things about Rogue and Warrior for example is watching and waiting for that resource bar to get up so u can do something. I find it sad and ironic that DPS is given so much thought in the stat squish discussion whereas this INT change seems to be shoved down our throats. People are acting like we actually have infinite mana today.That's cause most people way outgear any content that's available except maybe Heroic FL. Everything is a joke right now other than hard modes...

These changes seems to affect each caster differently as well since some of mechanics that will be less hurt by this and others more so. Paladins for example have almost always had to have a near constant active casting model since we had very little HoT mechanics to speak of whereas other casters will be able to take advantage of the regen mechanics more. Does this mean we're headed to more homogenization of the classes to compensate? We don't know yet, but this stuff isn't giving me a good feeling about it.

Also I fear what this will bring to the PVP side of things. The Holy Radiance change for Paladins already showed us that PVP balance is the least of their concerns when making changes for PVE. I'm dreading a return to the days of walking into PVP and getting Manaburn spammed to oblivion. It's not fun. And I haven't seen one good argument from Blizzard to address this simple issue. How are these changes going to make healing more fun?
Edited by Seiro on 11/15/2011 1:49 PM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
well as a healer you are always the person who has to deal with overtuned encounters when they are released

it's why there are so few people who want to raid heal endgame.

This, I believe, is a big part of it.

However, like GC has mentioned before, there is a fine line.

Too little raid damage and the DPS can bathe in the fire and be 100% dependant on raid healers to just let them to into tunnel vision mode. Too much and you start to deal with the issues we're seeing now.

The min/maxing requirements of Cata have pushed healing and tanking to a fine tipped edge. Too much more, and you loose "bring the player, not the class." (We're already beyond that in some aspects heroic mode wise.) Too little, and you have situations in Wrath.

While I'm in the camp that thinks Cata is too far in the min/maxing direction, I do recognize that going back the other way isn't the answer either. There has to be a medium point where you can still being the player (even in heroic modes) and complete the encounter without resorting to raid stacking.
85 Draenei Priest
I just don't particularly agree that healers should really need more than 1742 spirit. I was thrilled to reach a point with my intellect where I'm comfortable with spirit around that level. Why shouldn't healers be able to have similar haste/crit/mastery numbers to casters? Casters don't need more and more hit each tier (and it would cause problems if they did), so why should the bar be constantly raised for us on not only throughput required but longevity as well? Currently intellect prevents us from needing higher and higher amounts of spirit each tier as we're healing more and more, it increases our throughput and our longevity to support that throughput. It allows us to play with other secondary stats like casters do.

The problem isn't those of us healers who scale well with intellect, the problem is those specs which do not - Holy Priests and Rshammies. Fixing those specs so that they scale with intellect in a fair manner would be better than making changes that require all of us to be running spirit numbers like they do. I cringe when I see someone running 3600 spirit or so (I see this most often on Holy priests) - that doesn't leave a lot of room for other secondary stats.
Edited by Tiakatt on 11/15/2011 2:10 PM PST
100 Human Rogue
Three words to the OP. Learn to adapt.
1 Goblin Priest
Pretty soon the only difference between tanks and healers is going to be the color of your name on grid. You might laugh, but thats what it really feels like. In the pursuit of "balance" all Blizzard is doing is destroying all originality this game was built on.

I feel like this max mana problem is just a result of Blizzard getting rid of spell power on armor/enchants/trinkets, for the sake of making things easier. While its good for the community to have simpler choices, it created this. It's just a reminder that no matter how hard you try to balance, it cannot be achieved without something else being affected.

If you fix mana pools and let spirit regen with the more you have, aren't we going to run into the same problem we had in Ulduar? Where healers would just stack spirit and have an infinite mana pool? Something you don't want? With fixed mana pools does it allow you to balance the high end and the low end without something being affected? Because I don't see it.

Healing gets overhauled every expansion, but with problem it tries to fix. It creates another.
85 Worgen Druid
11/15/2011 11:30 AMPosted by Baeloro
Having to pay attention to your resources does not add any compelling feelings and for the most part, players feel far too stressed out when they are in that position to have to watch their resources.

Please speak for yourself. I am a player and I loved the BC model of mana regen. I LIKED having to use potions to keep my mana up during a fight. It's one of the reasons I switched to tanking on this toon when Wrath was implemented. My mana bar NEVER. MOVED. It was boring. I could cast (basically) free heals whenever I wanted. The only difference was how fast I could cast them. What fun is that?
85 Blood Elf Priest

If you are healing for >50% of the tanks health per heal like you were in wrath, then the encounters have to be designed around some sort of threat to tank death. This means that any tank gets hit twice in a row, they die. This is not fast paced or skillful to heal. It's simply stand there and bomb big heals on the tank the entire time. Do not heal anyone else. Everything can be going perfectly fine in an encounter, the next second you are running back because the boss managed to land two hits on the tank that didn't line up with your heals.

This was not fun in wrath. This is not something that should be promoted.

Duese don't tell me what’s fun and what’s not fun. What’s fun for you is not fun for everyone else. And don't stuff words in my mouth saying that the tail end of wrath was the be all end all of wow healing, get real.

Anyways I preferred BC healing over wrath healing, but enjoyed wrath healing, and hate cata healing. If you want true skillful healing you'd be promoting a modified down rank style healing of BC imo. Picking the correct heal quickly with as little over heal as possible, while still having large chunks of varying damage coming out. Which requires more then just 3 spells of fast super expensive heal, tiny slow heal, and big slow heal. Machine gun healing for 5% of health is not fun or interactive to me. There is no challenge in oh hey in 30 seconds the next big aoe comes out. Let’s spend the next 25 seconds chain casting said tiny heal or I'll have no mana. There is a challenge in my eyes of having 5 people in the raid at varying health levels. and having a heal for all those different levels of health(20/40/60/80% health). And quickly choosing the right heals for each one with as little overheal as possible.

Till you get me back to that style of game play, you and I will just have to agree to disagree. Because I'll never be on board the spam one tiny heal and barely move health bar for mana management model.

And just for the record, smaller heals does not equate to slower game play. It leads to more reactive gameplay which encourages more skill, more spell choice and more diversity in the way encounters are designed.

And I'm sorry but that does not lead to more reactive gameplay. All it leads to is the repetition of spamming the same tiny heal over and over long after a chunk of damage has happened.

Like I said before, true skillful healing would mean more varying degrees of spells. Allowing you the choice of how to manage your mana while still having the power to move a health bar if/when its needed. That would lead to truly "skillful" healing and/or mana management, while still maintaining an engaging and stimulating healing experience. “Auto-attack” healing as you put it, doesn’t cut it for me and never will.

85 Troll Shaman
11/15/2011 01:14 PMPosted by Socketimis
Our goal is to try to make the game as fun as possible, and we use player feedback to influence those decisions, but as you can see, feedback is often contradictory.

So how do you think you did with making Cata "fun"? If this expansion is what you call fun then you dont know the meaning of the word, and what you think is fun is not what we think is fun.

You told us triage healing was gonna be fun, it's not.
You told us T11 raids were gonna be fun, they weren't.
You told us T12 raids were gonna be fun, they were less frustrating than T11, but not fun.
You told us molten front dailies were gonna be fun, they werent.
You told us ZA/ZG was gonna be fun, they weren't, not the first time, not 6 months later.

Sorry If I dont believe your version of "fun" anymore.

Hate to make an entrance like this but... as we've all read many times... fun is largely point of view. And from my POV, I'm growing more and more tired of snide, venomous remarks from people who say the game isn't fun, i'm not happy, listen to me pout but don't expect a constructive reply with suggestions on how to work it out. Your feedback is quite simply lacking in any element that makes it worthwhile for the devs, or anyone, to read.

In regard to the topic, I'm okay with adjusting stats. At the end of the day, we're still going to want INT and SPI. Its up to the Devs to balance the numbers right, and if they do, whose to say we're really going to notice it in the first place. Even if it did somewhat nerf us, the ones who suffer are the ones who can't adapt their healing styles, or properly monitor their mana usage in a more efficient manner.
85 Troll Shaman
11/15/2011 01:23 PMPosted by Socketimis
Well- something like 1.7 million people didn't think it was fun anymore - I kinda doubt they are gonna listen to 12 people in a thread.

A lot more than 1.7 million, remember they also GAINED some subscribers during the expansion. So for all we know over 2 million quit or maybe it evened out, who knows.

I don't think they thought they were doing anything wrong with cata, I just think this is really the devs game philosophy when they took over. This is not the same crew that made WOTLK, so dont expect things to get better. When I realized this i just unsubbed because I was only holding out thinking they would turn it around, but the new talent trees and the rogue mana bar changes only show you that they seriously dont have a clue about what makes this game fun.
Rogue mana bar? ... >.> <.<
85 Blood Elf Priest
People seem to always combine all of the problems with a game into one giant lump sum. First off everyone makes a comment and then say you see they lost 2 million sub so far, and they think that it proves their point. It doesn't you are making connections to things that you don't even know are true or not. Only Blizzard knows why people quit the game. And im sure alot of it has to do with they fact that this game is how old. How many times do we have to keep saying this. If you started in Vanilla or even bc you have been playing this game for a long time. Sometimes it just gets boring. I have no plans to quit, I thought I would be done with 4.3 but after reading about the new changes they are dragging me back in. Ok so now to talk about healing.

Couple of things that i also want to touch on. People complain that its Blizzards fault that groups are dropping healers and pushing for more dps. This is not the case that is left up to the guild or the group, not Blizzard. Because you can kill a boss with 2 healers does not mean that you have. Its a choice and if your Guild master decides he/she wants to burn a boss quick how is that their fault. If people quit becuase they dont want to take time to play the other 2/3 of their class once again how that anyone else fault but their own. What top end guilds do to kill things and be competitive is and should not be taken into account on how a fight is done. You can kill Heroic Rag with a normal 25 man set up. But will you kill it first probably not.

If they change Int how big a deal is it going to be. Its going to be that you need to be in more control of your mana. Why do people feel like its going to be an end to healing. If anything it makes the game even less mind numbing since you will have to pay attention even more to make sure that you aren't wasting mana. And anyone who says that endless mana would be the way to go is wrong. Your way would kill healing the the healers that are left and good at it would be the ones to leave.

Healing is what you make of it. The healers that cant keep up or go oom arent understanding something about the game, Those of us that know what we are doing will continue to adapt and enjoy healing no matter what Blizzard throws at us. Healing like everything in the game is subjective if you cant do it anymore or don't want to spend the time to learn to do it then don't there are options for you to do other things.

And seriously we don't even know if what they are talking about changing is set in stone and people are already up in arms. Constructive feedback is best, and by saying this sucks and Blizzard is lazy and that is why they lost all those subs dosent prove your point you just sound like someone who cant make a real argument.
85 Gnome Warlock
Tanking is still easy, DPS is largely unchanged, but healing this expansion is pure torture.

Wrath might have been boring, but the BC model was FAR better than the triage model of Cataclysm.

It's not like triage healing has made a difference in PVP. People are still getting dead from 90 to 0 in a blanket, a deathcoil or a DR'd blind.
Edited by Selenora on 11/15/2011 2:21 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Priest
We should really stop talking about WotLK healing. That stuff is gone. bubble spam and WG+5 spam is gone from all but the T12H geared party running ZA/ZG (hint: they completely outgear the content)

They are risking breaking a lot of what makes gearing up a healer fun in hopes of fixing a largely artificial problem. The problem with healers getting bored healing with infinite mana cannot possibly be as widespread as GC implies. The real reason for this restructuring may never be shared. Normalization of Mana pools will change how we view gearing upgrades... it will be less epic at first... then /meh. early dungeon groups will fail and rage-quit because healers "lack the mana pool" just like when they made the huge adjustment to tank threat in 4.0.

but after all that pain... we will still be left with the same QQ that blizz claims is the impetus for these changes... Heroic geared, end-game healers will QQ that healing (lower content) is too easy when they really are just complaining that their guild isn't doing harder content (for whatever reason, delays in development or their guild just can't get it together to do heroic content).

Moot point, really... by the time GC weighs in on a matter, it's a done deal.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
My biggest concern with this is we are going to need to develop 2 sets of gear/gems (i assume int won't be able to be reforged, so we can just assume we're reforging spirit in this example to make it more simple).

Basically. In a longer fight where burst damage is low and constant damage is high... we'd want a high spirit set so our mana pool remains large and we can heal big and hard when we need to... relying on the higher spirit across the longer encounter to keep our mana pools afloat.

In a short, Baleroc, type fight. We would want pure int. In a short, burst damage type encounter spirit goes out the window in the new mentality since the effect of spirit is directly based on how long we're in combat. In that example; we'd scrape together enough spirit from base gear to regen throughout the fight while we are spamming high-output heals with high int... the more int we have the more we can substitute in the more efficient heals to allow for less mana spent.

This also creates a paradigm where the more gear we have, the more int we will want because we'll be getting more spirit per piece of gear. Which ultimately leaves us in a situation we are now where we reach a certain "peak" of spirit that allows us to pump out high end heals without worry of mana while still stacking int.

It's also going to impact classes in vastly different ways. Druids basically ignore spirit right now. And if nothing changes they probably will have to care about it very little in MoP and continue doing what they're doing... especially with innervate. Paladins will probably still stack haste... but due to how our spells work we'll probably stack spirit to a certain point and then just spam HR and DL. Divine Plea is still a huge problem as it reduces the healing output... so paladins are probably going to have to slide it in when we can; which means we'll be balanced around the fact that when we can use it... we never run out of mana... and when we can't; we're running on fumes.

All in all; I don't like it. Stacking int works for certain classes due to how they have to heal and the abilities they have available to them. The class with cheaper heals wins out in this new mentality.
90 Night Elf Druid
"QQ, i'm a noob healer that cant think and heal at the same time, i'm gonna cry and make it look like its a bad change on the forum, QQ"

grow up kid, healing in god-mode is what "isnt fun", atleast not for the good healers.

just stop a minute and think why they are doing it....
using druids for example: on the beginning of cata, we couldnt cast Regrowth outside OOC or it would burn your mana, Today i can cast more than 5 in a row and some after and i'll still be able to finish the fight with more than 50% of my mana, this shouldnt happen.
The devs just want to make Mana a resource, not something that is below your toon's portrait just to look pretty, a healer with unlimited mana would have huge impacts in boss fights and pvp, in a negative way, and everytime that a player die, would be the healer's fault

i'm sorry but i think people just dont understand what is going on.
85 Worgen Druid
11/15/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Trinko
Innervate could regenerate mana based on the casters spirit to the target (with a min fixed amount for ferals)

Would you be interested to know that it used to? Innervate used to buff spirit-based regeneration on the target by 400% of the casting druid's own regeneration. They changed it to work on maximum mana pool of the target so it could also be helpful in a situation where it is cast on a player that does not have a lot of spirit and was not overpowered because of the fact that druids at the time had a lot of spirit.
Edited by Dryarae on 11/15/2011 2:28 PM PST
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