How does everyone feel about the MoP...

90 Night Elf Druid
12935
Okay, I know it's really early and we shouldn't jump to conclusions about anything. But, that said...

Okay first off, talents aside, you're taking away the out of combat rez from feral and balance druids? Please, PLEASE tell me this is another one of those database mistakes. There was a reason you gave that to use in the first place, please remember what it was like before and don't send us back there.

As for talents... for druids they really seem to focus on the idea that "Shifting is fun!". But, well, Okay it IS fun to shift around and turn into animals and what not... but not during combat. The only reason I will ever shift out of cat or bear form is to either A. grab a mob if the tank dies or B. quickly battle rez someone before shifting back.

All our level 90 talents seem pretty worthless aside from disentanglement, but that's only for pvp really. Heart of the wild gives us bonuses we'll probably never use, as does master shapeshifter. I'm not about to shapeshift out of cat form to cast moonfire three times for a meager bonus. Also, if you're wanting us to shapeshift out and cast heals to make use of these bonuses then why are you taking away almost all our heals?

One tier of druid talents has 2 abilities that require you to be in bear form to use, so... that's just great for the 3 other druid specs. Also the other talent from that tier brings all enemies towards you, which is also something I would only think a bear would enjoy.

Meanwhile, there's another tier with 2 awesome abilities for cat druids. Among which is our stampede bonus and another which lets us use stealth abilities while not stealthed. But I can only pick one, and quite frankly the latter seems like the better option (of course I would have to test it). Still, it hurts to see stampede go as it felt like such a core Alpha-strike ability to cats.

Also, unless I missed it we're losing "blood in the water". Now, it's not exactly integral, but without it I really have little incentive to use ferocious bite unless the raid target has 1 or 2% health remaining.

It also seems like nurturing instinct is being changed to another one of those "Hey you should shapeshift a lot" abilities since it's losing the 20% increase to incoming heals in cat form which was what made it worth taking.

All-in-all, it feels like the druid talents were designed with an awesome idea in mind (that druids should be shapeshifting all over the place), that would never work in the actual game.
45 Gnome Warlock
4920
I don't like that soul link is not a learned spell.

It shouldn't have to be a talent point.


From the quick glance I took at the Warlock specs, this is my main problem.

I thought the talent points were for things that didnt make much difference and/or were for flavor? Not necessary things. Isnt that why they changed them in the first place, so you dont have to have points in certain things.
85 Goblin Mage
7295
Double poly might be used in 5 man with an especially incompetent group. It seems unlikely though.Sickly poly is still healing, so still defeats the purpose. Don't poly what your killing. Heavy poly would seem to be the reasonable option. In PVE, the tank gets to beat on him for 3 secs after he breaks poly. Also, gives you the chance to reapply for the trigger happy hunter. It also provides a nice chaining effect for PVP. I can't think of time when I wanted my poly to last only 6 secs BEFORE diminishing returns. I would like to again echo that if we have to choose a crappy poly addition, please put it at level 15.
90 Night Elf Hunter
2775
I don't care for this idea as they have it right now. To me it seems they are stripping away even more variety from the game and forcing people to choose. Most of these talents are no brainers or necessities making the others look pointless.
I don't understand why they keep saying they don't want "cookie cutter" builds yet here they are in Cata forcing us to take one tree, then in MOP they are taking away more freedom of choice and the chance to have an interesting build.
Personally I believe that they should allow players to choose freely between the three trees, place your points where you want them, IE if I wanted to spec in half BM and half MM throughout my leveling that would create a more robust and diverse build. This will give players complete freedom and variety. They could even let us put points between two trees instead of three, even that is more interesting and gives more variety.
I know it would be an issue for balance but the game has always been imbalanced and will never be perfect. It always seems like Blizzard just makes changes according to THEIR wishes and not what their players want or need in the game. Its always what "we" want or what "we" need not what the "player" wants or needs.
They are seriously disconnected with their players and have been for a while now.
With some stiff competition coming out in the MMO market the next few months you would think they would really step things up, not take steps back.
90 Dwarf Warlock
17395
I don't like that soul link is not a learned spell.

It shouldn't have to be a talent point.


From the quick glance I took at the Warlock specs, this is my main problem.

I thought the talent points were for things that didnt make much difference and/or were for flavor? Not necessary things. Isnt that why they changed them in the first place, so you dont have to have points in certain things.


This seems to point to Warlocks being balanced around NOT having soul link. We could be returning to the glory days of SL/SL.

At least that's what I'm hoping.
85 Goblin Shaman
2685
11/23/2011 07:11 AMPosted by Viviantra
Like I said, I know it's early to pass judgement, but from what you see now how do you feel about the new trees?


I like what I am seeing. It reminds me a bit of EverQuest 2 in how you got some taletns as you leveld up. I would love however to see a 4th collum with talents that you could pick that were based on race. So a goblin would see differnt talents there that they could pick form then a tauren etc.

The one thing that does scare me is when i click on the talent specilization and look at sy Chain Heal and see its 34% of Base Mana... When all we have is Base Mana thats 3 chain heals to OOM??? If that goes though healing will be impossible.



85 Human Warlock
5775
11/23/2011 08:29 AMPosted by Polenzsky
I like it. The hardcores may not, but I like it so far. Obviously its unfinished, so I expect some changes to it. But I like the base groundwork.
70 Human Mage
10770
I'd love to see the control dead spell for unholy DKs replace raise dead. That way it gives unholy DKs who have a permanent pet some variety when it comes to their permanent pet.
Edited by Arcanes on 11/23/2011 12:29 PM PST
90 Worgen Death Knight
17345
I like the change to death pact, but I don't like that it's a talent. I really like that On a Pale Horse is passive for all specs. The new ability is cool, but seems like it will have almost no use since this isn't WotLK. Other than that, I really like the Death Knight talents.
35 Gnome Warlock
160
There's always going to be cookie cutter no matter what in PvP/PvE.

11/23/2011 12:25 PMPosted by Manhammer
It also looks a LOT like Diablo III's system. Kind of sad the two games will be so similar next year. I'd like to play two entirely different games.


Totally agree. Not sure who got shafted on this, Diablo of WoW.

11/23/2011 12:26 PMPosted by Garsid
I like it. The hardcores may not, but I like it so far. Obviously its unfinished, so I expect some changes to it. But I like the base groundwork.


Who says hardcores are complaining?
90 Human Rogue
8370
I don't like it.

I don't understand what they're trying to accomplish here. They keep saying we should get "more choice" between how we want to play, but all they're doing is making choices harder. Harder =/= more. Like for example, obviously, as a sub rogue I'll have to choose between 2 abilities that right now I already have. Why? How does this give me more choice in how to play my rogue? It just means that I have make a really sucky choice between which one I want more.

No matter what they do there will ALWAYS be a cookie cutter spec. They keep saying this isn't what they want (cookie cutter specs) but I don't get:

1) Why this is so important to them. Do I care if someone else has the same spec as me? No, why should I? Is this something the community has been crying about? Not that I've seen. I do not get why they have been so hung up on this for so long.

2) How do they think giving us less choice in our talents somehow equates to things being less "cookie cutter"?

Seems to me like the more they try to "give" us choice the more they actually take it away. Like for example locking us down for 31 points in this system before we can go into another tree. The old talent trees, you could put points wherever you wanted. Does anyone remember shockadins? Isn't that a good example of people doing something different from the normal cookie cutter thing?

I don't like the way things are looking with this whole talent thing. I'm sort of glad that I did the year contract thing so I'm guaranteed to get into MOP beta and I can see how it plays in game. If it sucks as much as I think it might, then I don't have to go buy the xpac.


Well said. The talent point system in Cata to being with I didn't enjoy much having to go 31 points into a tree before going into another, that limited my ability to play my class how I want it.

In MoP the talents are horrible for rogues having to choose between two abilties that we have and having the same old boring talents while alot of other classes do new things makes me not even want to play MoP, and Will be the reason I quit. Based on the current talent preview for MoP some classes REALLY got the short end of the stick while others are extremely nice, this is bad design and unfair.
90 Dwarf Warlock
17395
11/23/2011 12:26 PMPosted by Garsid
I like it. The hardcores may not, but I like it so far. Obviously its unfinished, so I expect some changes to it. But I like the base groundwork.


To bring up an irrelevant point, why wouldn't hardcores like it?

Being upset about the trees is more of a class thing than a playstyle thing. I know I'm happy with the Warlock tree, but I'm disappointed with the Warrior tree.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12135
I don't often say this, but hey, I'll go there:

"Look, it's a fanboy that thinks the developers can do no wrong."
Oh, far from it. They've made plenty of mistakes and !@#$ed up plenty of things. But the degree of "I don't like how my not-remotely-complete class changes look, therefore this whole overhaul is bad" and "I didn't like this one change back then, therefore they should never change anything in the game ever" in this thread is pretty ridiculous.

And really, if you want to play that game, I could easily say "oh look, it's a guy who gems for expertise as a prot warrior, apparently tanks using healing trinkets from last expansion, and has never tanked anything in this expansion harder than a 5-man who thinks he knows how game balance works." I'm not saying you have to be a Firelord to have any say in game balance, but you really shouldn't come in here and say "this is how the game should be" when you clearly don't know how to play it.
I haven't seen a single thing yet that gives me more choices - just a rehash of what I already had and losing things I've had forever. Changing things to "keep them fresh" doesn't - it's just one more hassle to relearn the game again.

If the game is nothing more than a grind of dailies and a hassle, it's not a game. It's a waste of time.
You have plenty of choices, you just have to choose between stuff you have now and stuff that's new, at least to your spec. Shockwave vs. Bladestorm vs. Avatar is a choice you didn't have before. Gag Order vs. Rude Interruption vs. Disrupting Shout is a choice you didn't have before. The alternatives may not all seem attractive now, but that's what the next several months of development are for.
90 Human Rogue
8370
11/23/2011 10:46 AMPosted by Bashiok
t was important for us to get this stuff in front of you as soon as possible though (and as a work in progress as it is) to get your feedback, which will in no small part influence that change


Wait so Bashiok I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly but even if the feedback is negative it will not influence a change to whats happening?
11/23/2011 07:25 AMPosted by Viviantra
I noticed a lot of this too, my main is a shadow priest. I know for a fact that the trees are not final. I'm really, really hoping the trees will change. I don't even understand why Divine Hymn and Hymn of Hope would be restricted to a spec. I never noticed Devouring Plague being gone, that's got to be a mistake.


I thought to myself: I hope there are more talents than just these. I don't know if the trees are just incomplete, or if we're getting a pile o' spells removed. At this point, I can figure there's more to be done with them, since MoP is still a ways out.

However, the idea seems to be pretty cool.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12135
11/23/2011 12:35 PMPosted by Revenge
t was important for us to get this stuff in front of you as soon as possible though (and as a work in progress as it is) to get your feedback, which will in no small part influence that change


Wait so Bashiok I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly but even if the feedback is negative it will not influence a change to whats happening?
He said "which will in no small part influence that change" which can alternately be worded as "which will influence that change in a part that is not small" which can be parsed to "which will have a large influence on that change."

So he is in fact saying the exact opposite of what you interpreted him as saying.
90 Gnome Warrior
12240
I like the warrior trees at this stage of the game. It looks like they are doing a good job of making the choice for each tier a playstyle/utility choice rather than a dps or mitigation choice. I'm thinking about the builds for both prot PvE and PvP, which are the two specs I tend to play, and really struggling with build choices. I think this is indicative of good design: choices reflect playstyle and not optimized builds.

As just one example, for the first tier of warrior talents (Juggernaut, Double Time, Warbringer) one could make a very good case of the viability for each for a PvP warrior. I can imagine how each brings different strengths and weaknesses to PvP and see the difficulty of picking just one as optimal. If this translates into making a talent choice based on playstyle, composition, and setting (10v10 RBGs or 3v3 Arenas, for example), then I think Blizzard will have succeeded.

Looking forward to seeing the next few iterations of these talents as MoP approaches.
85 Blood Elf Priest
9065
I completely understand the logic in releasing these out early to get feedback, but when you release something like the Priest Talents and "Core Abilities" with half of our old talents/spells missing its just going to cause problems.

I went there hoping to see some new things, instead I saw that as shadow I can no longer heal if its a necessity to save from a wipe. I saw some of my favourite things to do as a Shadow Priest gone.

That is not smart. I understand this is no where near complete but seriously that was a huge mistake, its just causing your forums to be flooded with an outcry of no change, and personally I agree. I really do not see why we need to lose our ability to be customized. Who cares if there is min/maxing? There always will be and with this you'll see the same thing. Some fights every class will swap talents for that fight and swap around again because as you said it'll be as easy as swapping glyphs.

I understand your want for change but this just doesn't seem necessary. Its tiring to have to basically relearn everything. Also how are you going to handle other expansions? No new talents? I don't see a 15 level jump coming anytime soon so you are pigeonholing all of it.

I'll be in the beta and hopefully will watch this evolve into something that doesn't make me feel like I'm not playing my character anymore, but some monster you decided I should play.
Edited by Britnyspurs on 11/23/2011 12:47 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
12135
11/23/2011 12:37 PMPosted by Luxredux
I noticed a lot of this too, my main is a shadow priest. I know for a fact that the trees are not final. I'm really, really hoping the trees will change. I don't even understand why Divine Hymn and Hymn of Hope would be restricted to a spec. I never noticed Devouring Plague being gone, that's got to be a mistake.


I thought to myself: I hope there are more talents than just these. I don't know if the trees are just incomplete, or if we're getting a pile o' spells removed. At this point, I can figure there's more to be done with them, since MoP is still a ways out.

However, the idea seems to be pretty cool.
They seem to be taking the raid-wide survivability cooldowns away from all non-healers, given that Prot Pallies are also losing DG. Tranquility will also probably be moved to Resto-only soon enough.
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