How does everyone feel about the MoP...

100 Night Elf Priest
16620
I read what you wrote, and took a look, and yeah... I'm not sure what to say. I mean, I don't really use renew, but I'd like the option.

I dunno -- seems like more railroading again. WTB freedom in spec, freedom in quests, freedom in general.


I added to the list here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3595674819 . It's kindof a moot point, as it looks like the talent tree was in fact unfinished and we are not losing core abilities, but you can view the full list there.

I wish they'd have said "Sorry Priests, we haven't worked on you yet, you have to wait" instead of getting us excited and making it look like they gutted the class. It's also too bad they there accidentally left out so many spells. I wanted to see if Mind Spike was changing because if not, Mind Melt looks like a horrible waste of a talent, but Mind Spike was missing too.


Agree.
I'm concerned with a few things.

In regards to mages specifically:
~Level 75 talents are 2 Fire spells and Slow. I'm a frost mage so the fire spells are out. Slow is useless to me because I can: ice them in place or polymorph. Unless there's a glyph that will make them more Frost-centric, I really don't see myself using them.

~Why is FFB being made a level 1 ability? It has a 2.5sec cast time versus the 1.5sec cast time of Frostbolt and Fireball? Also, Frostbolt is generally superior in terms of the damage output and slow ability it adds on, whereas FFB only gets used when it procs because it's an instant cast and costs no mana.

~Where did Fingers of Frost go!? Where did Shattered Barrier and Reactive Barrier go!?

~Focus Magic is gone too. I liked that!

In general:
~For those characters that are not 85 when MoP comes out, what happens to their learned abilities? It seems the level requirements for some are changing drastically. Will they all of sudden "forget" this ability that had previously just removed the face of some poor bad guy?
85 Blood Elf Warlock
8805
I always felt when blizzard change things it gave us more options or fun stuff. So far this feels like taking away alot things I already had in certain specs. It feels atm more of a loss to me. Hopefully it develops a lot better.
85 Blood Elf Rogue
7995
I like the warrior trees at this stage of the game. It looks like they are doing a good job of making the choice for each tier a playstyle/utility choice rather than a dps or mitigation choice. I'm thinking about the builds for both prot PvE and PvP, which are the two specs I tend to play, and really struggling with build choices. I think this is indicative of good design: choices reflect playstyle and not optimized builds.

As just one example, for the first tier of warrior talents (Juggernaut, Double Time, Warbringer) one could make a very good case of the viability for each for a PvP warrior. I can imagine how each brings different strengths and weaknesses to PvP and see the difficulty of picking just one as optimal. If this translates into making a talent choice based on playstyle, composition, and setting (10v10 RBGs or 3v3 Arenas, for example), then I think Blizzard will have succeeded.

Looking forward to seeing the next few iterations of these talents as MoP approaches.


Another clueless player that doesn't realize that abilities are being taken away from you and that an ability you could get at 69 you now have to wait until level cap at 90.

Enranged Regeneration is a core ability to all warriors. You lose that as a core ability and now have to choose between ER and Second Wind. Both which are available to Arms warriors right now.

Throw Down and Piercing Howl are available to Arms Warriors now and in MoP you have to choose 1 or the other.

As a Warrior, how can you be happy with this?
100 Human Warlock
9470
Relearning talents and powers that I already know...huh. I don't see it yet but having to level to relearn spells/powers/talents happened to couple of my characters last expansion. Hopefully that will not happen again. I've leveled tons of characters and this made me very unhappy.

I also think the lack of weapon skills increase and training needed makes leveling feel less glamorous. I like the fact that its not there, but at the same time I feel the greatness in gaining a level feels much less exciting.
100 Night Elf Druid
16745
11/23/2011 12:51 PMPosted by Iynx
Throw Down and Piercing Howl are available to Arms Warriors now and in MoP you have to choose 1 or the other.


I think that is my only real complaint about MoP talent trees--choosing between two existing abilities is not fun. It feels like something is being taken away from us--while we still have the option to have one existing ability over another, we can't use both at the same time.

This is a problem with some classes more than others (ex: mage, warrior).

Druid talents look good so far, and I'm happy with most of the new talents across the other classes.
85 Worgen Rogue
2025
11/23/2011 12:17 PMPosted by Iynx
So far I like it on the rogue stuff - However, please get rid of redirect and allow combo points to stack on the rogue. Pretty please, with sugar on top. Thanks for taking poisons out of my bags by the way.


You are officially exiled from the rogue community.


Exiled why? Because I am trying to be positive? As if you had authority anyway. You are stuck in the past thinking about how the game is now - and are lacking vision.

I see some positives here. There IS some new stuff and I am seeing opportunity for some interesting combinations. For example I could take:

Subterfuge
Nerve Strike
Cheat Death
Shadowstep
Deadly Brew
Killing Spree

And PvP as Combat if I felt like it. Yeah we are losing a class defining combo and that is the whole point, Blizz does not want players to be pigeonholed. We can take what they have provided and think of new ways to get the job done. And if you insist on trolling me, at least be constructive about it.
85 Tauren Death Knight
7370
11/23/2011 12:46 PMPosted by Suzushiiro


I thought to myself: I hope there are more talents than just these. I don't know if the trees are just incomplete, or if we're getting a pile o' spells removed. At this point, I can figure there's more to be done with them, since MoP is still a ways out.

However, the idea seems to be pretty cool.
They seem to be taking the raid-wide survivability cooldowns away from all non-healers, given that Prot Pallies are also losing DG. Tranquility will also probably be moved to Resto-only soon enough.
From what I have seen of the dk teir set for 4.3 maybe teir sets might be filling that whole. It would be kinda neat, but i'm not sure. They seem to be testing it though. This would mean they could also adapt it to the "useful" bonuses as stats weights change.
85 Blood Elf Mage
2735
I don't understand why hardcores wouldn't like it? Just goes to show how stupid they are. They think it gives them less choices? but in reality eveyone takes the same talents in the current sytem and maybe has 2 choices with spare points. The change is great and i'm looking forward to it very much.
5 Troll Priest
0
I like the warrior trees at this stage of the game. It looks like they are doing a good job of making the choice for each tier a playstyle/utility choice rather than a dps or mitigation choice. I'm thinking about the builds for both prot PvE and PvP, which are the two specs I tend to play, and really struggling with build choices. I think this is indicative of good design: choices reflect playstyle and not optimized builds.

As just one example, for the first tier of warrior talents (Juggernaut, Double Time, Warbringer) one could make a very good case of the viability for each for a PvP warrior. I can imagine how each brings different strengths and weaknesses to PvP and see the difficulty of picking just one as optimal. If this translates into making a talent choice based on playstyle, composition, and setting (10v10 RBGs or 3v3 Arenas, for example), then I think Blizzard will have succeeded.

Looking forward to seeing the next few iterations of these talents as MoP approaches.


Another clueless player that doesn't realize that abilities are being taken away from you and that an ability you could get at 69 you now have to wait until level cap at 90.

Enranged Regeneration is a core ability to all warriors. You lose that as a core ability and now have to choose between ER and Second Wind. Both which are available to Arms warriors right now.

Throw Down and Piercing Howl are available to Arms Warriors now and in MoP you have to choose 1 or the other.

As a Warrior, how can you be happy with this?

And every class now has abilities that are available to certain specs that never were before. What's your point?
85 Tauren Death Knight
7370
11/23/2011 12:55 PMPosted by Erzeroz


You are officially exiled from the rogue community.


Exiled why? Because I am trying to be positive? As if you had authority anyway. You are stuck in the past thinking about how the game is now - and are lacking vision.

I see some positives here. There IS some new stuff and I am seeing opportunity for some interesting combinations. For example I could take:

Subterfuge
Nerve Strike
Cheat Death
Shadowstep
Deadly Brew
Killing Spree

And PvP as Combat if I felt like it. Yeah we are losing a class defining combo and that is the whole point, Blizz does not want players to be pigeonholed. We can take what they have provided and think of new ways to get the job done. And if you insist on trolling me, at least be constructive about it.
Thats ok I like you you should join the dk community, we always welcome more.
I like the idea. It needs some work, but there is no reason to have talent trees with a ton of talents that no one ever uses. And I do like the choices on several of my characters (I have 9 level 85s).
100 Undead Rogue
12415
I really like the feel of the new talent trees. I like how you have to make tough decisions that affect your gameplay.

I strongly feel like 6 choices are not enough. It would be better if it was every 5 levels for 17 talent points. Then we could REALLY have more choice in our builds.

I know with the current system we have the illusion of choice, but there are really only a very few different variations of specs used to be "optimal".

Keep up the good work! I am sure most of us will enjoy the end result!

I love the new burst of speed ability for rogues! A 70% speed boost with immunity to movement impairing affects with NO COOLDOWN!! Bring on the rogue flag carriers! No more kiting us either WOOT! Hopefully you allow us to glyph it like sprint so we can run on the water forever!
90 Blood Elf Priest
12135
I completely understand the logic in releasing these out early to get feedback, but when you release something like the Priest Talents and "Core Abilities" with half of our old talents/spells missing its just going to cause problems.

I went there hoping to see some new things, instead I saw that as shadow I can no longer heal if its a necessity to save from a wipe. I saw some of my favourite things to do as a Shadow Priest gone.
You keep Flash, which is good enough for "oh !@#$ healer is dead/DC'd" moments. Given how infrequently that happens I'm not sure why losing GH/Heal/Renew is a big loss. Losing divine hymn is significant, but bringing certain hybrid DPS specs for their weaker-but-still-decent raid cooldowns is/was starting to become a problem.

That is not smart. I understand this is no where near complete but seriously that was a huge mistake, its just causing your forums to be flooded with an outcry of no change, and personally I agree. I really do not see why we need to lose our ability to be customized. Who cares if there is min/maxing? There always will be and with this you'll see the same thing. Some fights every class will swap talents for that fight and swap around again because as you said it'll be as easy as swapping glyphs.
You're not losing your ability to customize your character, you're gaining it. Unless you're speccing like an idiot you really only have 1-3 real choices in your talents on average right now. Upping that to six is a hell of an upgrade for anyone.

I understand your want for change but this just doesn't seem necessary. Its tiring to have to basically relearn everything.
How are you basically relearning everything? If you so desire you can make a spec that has the exact same stuff you have now plus a new toy or two and then play your class roughly the same way you do now. The talents have been specifically designed to work that way.
Also how are you going to handle other expansions? No new talents? I don't see a 15 level jump coming anytime soon so you are pigeonholing all of it.
Not the end of the world if we get five more levels without another talent, but I think it's more likely that it'll go "new level cap, new talent tier" past MoP, so you get new ones at 95, 100, 105, etc.
85 Blood Elf Rogue
7995
11/23/2011 12:55 PMPosted by Erzeroz


You are officially exiled from the rogue community.


Exiled why? Because I am trying to be positive? As if you had authority anyway. You are stuck in the past thinking about how the game is now - and are lacking vision.

I see some positives here. There IS some new stuff and I am seeing opportunity for some interesting combinations. For example I could take:

Subterfuge
Nerve Strike
Cheat Death
Shadowstep
Deadly Brew
Killing Spree

And PvP as Combat if I felt like it. Yeah we are losing a class defining combo and that is the whole point, Blizz does not want players to be pigeonholed. We can take what they have provided and think of new ways to get the job done. And if you insist on trolling me, at least be constructive about it.


Read my previous posts.

Rogues are losing too much and gaining nothing of importance to make up for that. In order to be competitive in PVP, Preparation and Shadowstep are a must so is having Imp Recuperate AND Cheat Death. No matter how you look at it, we are losing 2 main abilities that kept us competitive in PVP especially against frost mages.

And now we have to wait 21 levels to get a talent we already have??? It's like getting a child getting christmas gift and you play with it for a couple of months, then the parents take the gift away, rewrap it for next christmas and say, "we got you a new gift". It's insulting.

90 Dwarf Shaman
9365
I have to say I'm disappointed in some of the choices a resto sham would appear to have to make between talents - particularly at lvl 60. I hope that as things progress, each lvl of talents will be sort of between one of the three specs. It just doesn't feel right for a healer to have to choose between Healing Tide Totem, Ancestral Guidance and Fortifying Waters.
100 Draenei Mage
3990
11/23/2011 10:46 AMPosted by Bashiok
It was important for us to get this stuff in front of you as soon as possible though (and as a work in progress as it is) to get your feedback, which will in no small part influence that change.

You know...This is why I think the annual pass is giving away Beta access. Just to get more people in the pool for feedback.
100 Night Elf Warrior
20640
Well, I think the system has its pros and cons... but from a warrior (arms) stand point of view:

Why is Bladestorm (already available) moved to lvl 90 ?? Same could be said about Shockwave, but since It is still prom to many changes...i'll just shut up and wait.
90 Worgen Druid
10515
Given the incompleteness of the trees I know that some of these issues may already be in the works for a change, but given the information we currently have I'm going to go ahead and outline the things I want to talk about as if these trees were permanent.

Spec favoritism in hybrid talent trees: I get that you want hybrid classes to branch into other roles for short periods of time on occasion, but the hybrid classes, particularly the shaman talent tree, have a severe shortage of talents that every spec would use regularly.

--In its current iteration the Shaman tree is disgusting, the entire thing might as well be a giant sign that says "Switch to Resto".

--For druids it very obviously favors feral and guardian. The only "hybrid" thing that would be good for a Balance is the healing = lunar/solar energy. All the other hybrid stuff heavily favors being in melee. Which a good boomkin will not be. Ever. Barring some kind of gimmick of course.

--I don't have a death knight but by looking at the talents they seem to very heavily favor PvP, they all feel like old school pvp talents, with the exception of the AoE ones, those are pretty cool!

--Same with Priests. Most of the talents, barring the health % ones, feel very pvp-ish. I do have to say the shadow vs healing seems pretty even, although the holy vs disc doesn't seem to be represented AT ALL in the talent trees. For all they are concerned Priests have 2 specs, healing and shadow.

--I don't particularly have much to complain about Paladins, to be perfectly honest if I was to list a benchmark for how you should balance all of the hybrid talent trees it would be the Paladins. It's very obvious that almost every single talent and talent tier was carefully thought about how it could be beneficial to all three specs of Paladin.

Another concern I have is that while some specs of some classes get very spec defining abilities at level 10, there are some that don't even get anything at level 10 due to making some abilities baseline. This needs to be fixed asap. Example: Go look at the beast mastery spec. They don't get anything to distinguish them as a "Beast Mastery Hunter" until level THIRTY.

Also, something else I noticed; if something is a spec defining level 10 ability, you're not afraid to put an important passive along with it at level 10, but if you learn something at later levels sometimes you have two paired abilities being learned at vastly different levels. Example: Elemental Shaman get rolling thunder, the ability that gives them extra Lightning Shield charges, at level 20; however, they don't get Fulmination, the ability that actually USES those extra charges, until level 30. These abilities should be at the same level, they shouldn't be at different levels simply for the fact that they used to be in different talent tiers. That just doesn't make sense under the new "get it when you need it" model.

That's all I can think of at the moment (and is plenty to mull over really). Thanks for putting these out so soon for us to maliciously rip apart over and over through the next few months!
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