VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

87 Blood Elf Priest
12610
11/17/2011 09:00 AMPosted by Bashiok
In the 4.3 raid, tier sets can only be earned from boss drops, and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses, we think there will be less need for Valor overall. We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.


Making Valor less common does not make it less valuble. If you really wanted to reduce it's importance by making it less useful that's a good step. Step two then is to make it very very easy to cap so that becomes a non-factor. Not another god forsaken slog through some undertuned five mans with a bunch of anti-social jerks or keyboard turners because we need to cap for the week.

Devalue Valor by making it easier to cap not harder. Making it buy fewer useful things on top of that so people finish with it sooner would also be desirable.
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90 Human Paladin
8530
Wait, let me see if I understand this.

PvPers: Can follow their own path to capping

PvEers: Being herded like sheep into heroics and/or LFR so they can cap for the week

Not thrilled about this change at all. I am not using LFR, that sounds like a total disaster so I guess it's carrying retards through 2 heroics every week to cap. That sounds like really fun and inspiring gameplay.

You'd be amazed how many people still don't understand the 5-man mechanics after all this time or BH for that matter. Just imagine finding all those people in your LFR group every single week and trying to complete anything. Hell, my alt still gets into Firelands pugs that can't get a single boss down despite being nerfed into oblivion.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14945
Please look at the drops in 10 man. From all I am hearing the PTR is dropping just 1 tier plus one random piece of loot which is a nerf from firelands where on tier bosses we at least get the tier plus 2 pieces. 10s already have a horrible problem with RNG so reducing what we get is only going to make that worse.

What happened to the going to tweak tier to be better for 10s in Dragon Soul due to not being able to get any tier pieces from valor? From the information we have it is not looking good at all. With only two pieces dropping from bosses there are several people in my 10 man group that do not have 4 pieces of T12. As it stands this is going to be much much worse in 4.3 :(.
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85 Human Paladin
6780
I really think the biggest issue that comes up with slowing down gear through valor gains, and why pushing gearing so much to raiding beyond everything else....

You can get gear from the LFR bosses 1 time / week. You can only do the normal raids at all 1 time / week.

Now, let's assume you're in DREAM Paragon... You're the definition of a hardcore raiding guild... Tuesday night, you're done raiding, both the LFR drops and normal / heroic raid drops, and you're VP capped for the week and JP capped since you never need to spend it... What do you do the other 6 nights of the week? Your character is pretty much on hold, you can't advance anymore until next tuesday. Your ONLY option is to clear the raids again on an alt.

There really needs to be some middle ground between raiding to progress, and doing other things to progress. When you really look at the whole of this game... raid or die is just a terrible design
Edited by Aldiara on 11/17/2011 1:10 PM PST
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85 Tauren Priest
5770
It's times like this that I miss being able to buy all my stuff with just tokens like in the end of Wrath.

I really liked that system.

Oh and Blizzard? You have too much faith in the LFR. I hope I'm wrong, for your sake.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
10355
11/17/2011 09:23 AMPosted by Bashiok
Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding, but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.


Is there some replacement incentive then? It hardly seems like a sound argument to take away one's incentive to do something with claims of it not being a very good incentive, all while not providing some new form of a "better" incentive to replace the prior. A lackluster incentive is better than no incentive at all. I for one, did enjoy earning extra VP from running 25 man, as it was a nice little perk for having to coordinate more than twice as many people.

If the argument is that valor are going to be less important come 4.3, why have there been massive amounts of new valor gear added? If anything, it seems like valor is even more desirable than in any of the previous Cataclysm content releases.

If you guys really are going to pursue this "valor isn't as desirable, so we're going to slow down its acquisition" philosophy, then wouldn't it be more logical to lower the "cap per week" amount, rather than how many you can earn per boss? Not that I'm a fan of the idea of lowering the cap to an even lower number than it is now, but it's the logical move if this is actually blizzard's view on the matter.

The idea of lowering 10 and 25 man valor rewards to the same amount is just removing yet another small reason for [struggling] 25 man guilds to continue on their current path. Perhaps the loss of 35 VP per boss isn't that big of a deal in the big scheme of things, but it feels to me like yet another swift kick to the face of people sticking to their guns and remaining a 25 man raiding group.

When Cataclysm was released, the extra valor points earned was one of the very first incentives offered to 25 man guilds. As it stands, a lot of 25 man guilds are already struggling to stay intact, as the extra rewards on 25 man hardly compare to the extra difficulties that come with them. I've personally watched more than 2/3 of the 25 man guilds on my server crumble this expansion, and have been really hoping to myself that blizzard would add in some sort of new incentive(s) to strengthen 25 man guilds again, and now I find out they're actually taking away one of the few that were there to begin with...which wasn't even close to enough in the first place.

I strongly recommend (and hope) that blizzard reconsiders this and either changes their mind, or offers some kind of replacement incentive to compensate for the loss of this one (and please do it now, don't wait until MoP).
Edited by Killshield on 11/17/2011 1:26 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16520
I think you're trying to kill off 25 man raids?

It sounds hyperbolic when put like that, but seriously..

I'm one of the organisers of our guild 25 man, and the raid lead + primary strategist within raid. In the past I've run hardmode/alt 10s groups - back when we could use a second lock out with the same toons - and that was a vastly more rewarding experience from a gameplay perspective.

25s are a serious pain in the !@# to organise compared to a 10 man. Balancing the needs, desires, egos and schedules of an extra 15 people is a headache. The only reason I do it is cos I'm friends with more of our 25 man raid team than I could convenient fit into a 10 man group.

We have crunched the numbers. We had the founding GM from our 5 year old guild quit the game because he wanted to swap to 10s (for the progression) and the majority of the officers wouldn't back him. It was by a 4-3 vote, with GM + the 2 who voted with quitting raiding when we didn't shift to 10s and the rest of us struggling to keep a 25s team going with now nearly non-stop roster numbers issues (sitting 3-5 people at the start of a tier, and regularly attempting to 23 man progression HMs at the end using casuals to fill 2-3 of those 23 spots).

Within that 25 man group, we typically have people who're motivated by three things - habit, the belief that 25s is the "serious" mode cos that's the format Paragon et al. do it in, and more loot.

We've already lost most of the portion of raiders who did it for better loot, and that killed off or shrank an awful lot of former 25s guilds. And this equalisation of VP is directly attacking the last clear "25s is better" element of the loot motivation.

We also routinely lose the portion of raiders who are most progression driven, because rather than struggling through 3-4 HM FL with us they can easily slot into a 6 or 7 HM FL 10 man raid team. It's invariably the most competent but more ego/individualistic players who we lose, which is routinely a relief from an ego balancing PoV but is a serious drawback from a performance PoV. When it comes "25s is serious mode" versus "I can kill 3-4 more bosses if I do it in 10s", eventually the extra bosses win for most progression oriented players.

So that's basically put the nail in the coffin of one of the primary motivators for keeping 25 people going (well, 30-35 given the realistic roster necessary to guarantee a full team each raid night).

We virtually never lose the ~7 "good enough" players who just coast, don't pay enough attention to their class/fights, and are with us to fill out the roster based on attendance rather than performance. They hold us back, they cost us competitive players who typically end up in more advanced 10s groups, but we need them so that we can flesh out a 25s roster.

If we were to swap to 10, we could cut that ~7 down to 1 or 2, which immediately means we could take the ones who're almost halfway competent (i.e. can't look up elitistjerks themselves, but can understand it if spoon-fed). The loot is already identical quality. From a non-accurate perception of "how much drops", the quantity feels identical. Now the valor is identical too.

So from both a raider & organiser perspective, we're down to habit, friendship and "cos paragon does it" as motivators for 25s. When compared to ease and further advancement, I'm honestly not sure that's enough to keep struggling to hold the team together.

I'm wondering how many of the 6+1 remaining 25 man guilds on our server will take it (6 established, 1 which is constant rotating guild-hoppers forming up under different names trying to get another 25s guild together). And our server is substantially better off for 25s guilds than most (48th in wowprogress t12-25's, 93th overall t12).

Based on current trends I predict Blackhand will be down to 4-5 25 man guilds by 5.0, and shrinking. We haven't had a successful new 25 man guild form this expansion, but we have had 9 or 10 shrink down to 10 mans (and several successful new 10 man guilds form).

I've been an officer with my guild for ~4 years, it's a 5 year old guild, we've fought tooth and nail to keep it 25s against semi-regular events where 5-8 people quit raiding within 3-4 weeks of clearing normal mode 25s raids (last tier that didn't happen in was T10).

I give us, at best, a 50-50 of managing to hold it together for another 2 tiers. Realistically I think the exodus following the first tier of MoP will probably kill us as a 25s guild at the present rate. MoP will need to defecate rainbows from an organisational+motivational perspective for us to continue struggling to hold a 25 team together for that long.

I think if Bliz is just going to make 25 man raiding more & more annoying to organise + unrewarding to participate in, they should bite the bullet and officially drop it from being available.
Edited by Lakhesís on 11/17/2011 1:21 PM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
11260
11/17/2011 01:03 PMPosted by Gunny
unless they have tuned it down to just being ridiculously easy.


It is ridiculously easy. My LFR groups by myself and with friends yielded the same results - the majority of players could completely ignore mechanics and the boss would still die. The only moderately difficult fights are Spine and Madness, both of which can be easily managed with reasonably high dps and a little bit of knowledge about the fight, which will come after a month of experience. The encounters take less time than normal/heroic and after only one month will have fewer wipes than all but the best of the normal groups.
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85 Tauren Druid
11260
11/17/2011 01:03 PMPosted by Gunny
Look at the comments in this very thread about expriences with PuGs in ZA/ZG. Do you have those problems when you go with your raiding guildies? That's a good comparison I think.


But you're comparing the wrong things... if I brought a group of random level 85 players to go do normal mode Vortex Pinnacle one month after the start of Cata, I'm quite certain that we would complete it faster than a guild group doing Vortex Pinnacle on heroic.
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
0
It seems to be one announcement contradicts the spirit of the other.

On the one hand (valor), you're saying - no guys you have to actually do the highest content in order to get the highest rewards. On the other hand (conquest), you're saying - no guys you don't have to do the highest content - just spam random battlegrounds and brute force your way to the highest gear.

I'd like to ask that you clarify the reason for these two contradictory messages - both announced simultaneously no less. =/


Not everyone does arena/RBG.
Who's to say regular BG's isn't what some people enjoy? I for one like these changes.
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85 Human Priest
8425
Every change I see is making me like this game less and less. There are several problems with this.

1. Choose your style - Now every player, regardless, must full clear + BH + 1 heroic or full clear + 2 heroics to cap or just grind heroics if you do not raid yet or don't want to. Talk about herding sheep...

2. Drops - Oh blizzard. OH BLIZZARD. Another tier and another SHAFT for the priest class. Last tier was bad enough, having to grind valor to get gear because there were no drops but 1 helm. Now, it is the SAME, only one spirit drop, a chest, but we also have to grind MORE valor points. How is this devaluing valor? Now it is even more precious, since loot does not drop from bosses for priests. Yes, there is non-spirit gear, but why must we suffer the lack of spirit drops while every other healer has 3+?

3. 10 v 25 - Now, I don't raid 25, but there are two problems here. One, why run 25's now? Pretty much in FL, the only benefit was the easier valor, and a bit easier time getting drops. Now, not even that? Wow... Secondly, 10 man tier bosses drop 2 pieces, including tier? WTF... Last raid was 2 + tier... This is going to make gear even more scarce for 10 man. Already the same damn two trinkets drop from rag every week. Now the same will happen on DW, only with 1 trinket/wep... THX.


I feel like blizz, you are not using your entire brain when you think of things. There are obvious holes in this philosophy, and great discrepancy's between raid tiers, raid types, previous ideals, and just overall, well, everything... I was looking forward to 4.3 and the eventual MoP. But this + the int change makes me wonder if ya'lls heads are screwed on properly...
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87 Human Paladin
6955
11/17/2011 12:25 PMPosted by Poena
We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.


Have you guys gone mad? You are going to force raiders into 5mans to cap VP?

You are rewarding 150 VP from ANY HEROIC DUNGEON, but 100 from RAID BOSSES.

You said it very eloquently...

150 VP to clear a whole heroic dungeon.

100 VP per BOSS.
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90 Human Death Knight
10615
In both 10- and 25-player raids, bosses will now drop 100 VP each (down from 115 and 135 respectively).


Given there is a cap of 1k valor per week and only 8 raid bosses with no other way to currently earn valor other than LFD or LFR, i dont care to waste more time capping out for the week. At least make it so when you 'complete' something ie an entire raid. you have done your weeks worth and you can look forward to next weeks adventure!
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90 Worgen Warlock
9250
It seems to be one announcement contradicts the spirit of the other.

On the one hand (valor), you're saying - no guys you have to actually do the highest content in order to get the highest rewards. On the other hand (conquest), you're saying - no guys you don't have to do the highest content - just spam random battlegrounds and brute force your way to the highest gear.

I'd like to ask that you clarify the reason for these two contradictory messages - both announced simultaneously no less. =/


Because PVP isnt about the gear. You still need the skill to actually win in PVP.
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90 Human Paladin
8560
Well, from what I understand...casual gamers will not progress. Random Pug Heroics have gotten worse and worse as people have less and less patience for people who are barely geared or are in full PVP gear. As well, these instances will not be giving VP's from what I understand, and forcing people who have no Raid discipline, team mentality, or patience will create a never ending wave of frustration. Even when you run with people who are in your own guild, it takes knowledge and skill to raid..which is why Raiding has been a game mechanic to keep the hardcore gamers interested and having something to work towards as a guild. I just see this as a disaster as causal gamers thinking they can hop into a full on raid with a bunch of random people in who knows what gear and enchants/gem's, experience, and maturity level. I have gone through Zandi's that have taken hours to complete because of nerd rage. I can see that it would look good on paper, but since there are no filters for Talent points, enchants, Gems, Glyphs, Spec gear, food, flasks, and Raid experience, tow experienced people out of twenty five, will just result in gamers deserting or running away after the first boss.
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90 Undead Priest
16470
11/17/2011 01:21 PMPosted by Uldrecht


Have you guys gone mad? You are going to force raiders into 5mans to cap VP?

You are rewarding 150 VP from ANY HEROIC DUNGEON, but 100 from RAID BOSSES.

You said it very eloquently...

150 VP to clear a whole heroic dungeon.

100 VP per BOSS.



I did, didn't I.
10-20min of zero effort play for 150VP
Or ~10min just for the boss fight that you are not guaranteed to win like a 5man dungeon (without wipes also). This excludes trash leading up to each boss and the time required to set up for each boss (I don't know those exact numbers, but in firelands it is a minimum of ~5min of trash before each boss (excluding Shannox) and a couple min for job assignments.

Again... 150vp for a guaranteed win and zero effort... or 100VP for a chance at a win.

Please... get off your high horse... Heroics aren't even remotely hard or time consuming.
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90 Tauren Druid
17990
11/17/2011 09:12 AMPosted by Eridan
and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses


Right now it mostly seems to be allowing people to wipe on Morchok once or twice before the calls of "U ALL BADS" and the ragequits begin.


I'm only ever going to be queuing for raid finder with the maximum possible amount of Guildies.
Groups still have trouble doing ZA bosses, I wouldn't want to queue with those sorts of people for raid bosses.
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