VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11785
11/18/2011 12:05 AMPosted by Sòrrów
imo ppl argue about this because gearing alts will be harder well I only have one thing to say to that "QQ more" gearing an alt to be just as geared as your main is utterly stupid there is a reason its called an alt because its not your main and if you alt is just as geared as your main its not an alt and your main is not your main if you complain about something like that we might as well call this game World of Altcraft.

You're right..We should only play with one toon! Don't try any others to find out which one fits you best!
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11785
Dear Blizzard...
Your player base is screaming at you loudly! Will you listen? No one on either the casual or hardcore front is loving any of this HYPE you are trying to shovel down their throats. Either you guys fix this issue by listening to the players/dollars, or you get such a huge backlash that you release MoP too early and that causes even a bigger mass exodus from this game. Do you guys have someone on the inside working for EA and Bioware? I've defended you tirelessly against the flavor of the moment star wars pretty game. I can't anymore lol. Look how many people are pissed off in these threads! Piss them off worse and they'll probably just take their credit card off file and tell you to keep diablo and your mount just to stick it to you. For the record, i won't be jumping ship but if it ends up being as ridiculous as it seems it will be via the posts, I'll just dock permanently and go ashore.
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90 Tauren Druid
12980
De-emphasizing Valor Points will make it harder for certain classes who have one or more secondary stats that are far less optimal than the other stats. In particular, Haste for Bear tanks. While our tier gear is mostly without haste, much of the other items dropping in Dragon Soul have haste on them, making the VP purchases without haste a lot more valuable to us.

Also, I realize information on what gear is going to be available may not yet be complete, but there appears to be even fewer options in heroic Dragon Soul gear for us to avoid haste.
Edited by Ot on 11/18/2011 8:31 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
12620
This would bother me substantially less if you actually put gear for all of the specs on the loot tables for the bosses. Unfortunately, for holy priests, there is *again* only one piece of spirit cloth gear listed on the entire loot table list, so quite a bit of that gear will have to come from valor points -- which we will now get substantially slower.

I don't object fundamentally to the concept, but please think through the implementation.
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17 Worgen Druid
70
more grind-taclysm! genius!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13530
Why not actually use Valor to fill in the gaps in equipment? That was one of the explicitly stated goals of Valor gear, and while I have no disillusionment as to my alts getting 391 gear (they don't deserve it) to match my main, the same slots are always used for the "welfare" gear (Molten Front, Valor Vendors) that I would see as being necessary for new players to break into raiding.

For example, there are 3+ rings (of which I think 2 are identical) for Str DPS between Molten Front and Valor, multiple belts available, etc. But if you hope for shoulders? Better shoot yourself in the face because you have a whole lot of Zandalari heroics to run until you'll ever see them drop.

Is that how we're supposed to want to kill bosses "for their loot"? By making it more grindy? If you really want it to be a case of us killing bosses -more-, I guarantee that the average WoW player in a small guild for whom raid finder was made will suffer, and instead established guilds will fill in gaps in their drops by taking as many people into raid finder as possible (LF1 LFR Guild Group G2G).

I really pity anyone trying to get into current tier raiding at this point. At least Wrath, for all of its "caters to casuals" complaints from kids, constantly allowed new players to jump into raiding and not feel like a burden on their groups. I suppose next expansion I'll be sure to level my alts immediately, because if they miss a tier or two of attention they'll be sol.
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Dear Blizzard...
Your player base is screaming at you loudly! Will you listen? No one on either the casual or hardcore front is loving any of this HYPE you are trying to shovel down their throats.


Don't speak for me please.
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85 Draenei Priest
9160
The changes to boss drop behaviours increase our dependence on valor, not decrease it.

And would you mind tossing Holy Priests some spirit cloth from the bosses? They shouldn't feel forced to play Disc because you guys refuse, two tiers in a row, to give them spirit gear. And once they have that spirit cloth from valors, how are they to upgrade those pieces to heroic? They don't get Heroic spirit cloth drops.

It's especially confusing that you'll do this in Dragon Soul when lately you're making a big deal about how Healers should want more spirit to begin with, and wanting to take intellect out of the mana equation. You're saying those things, and then turning around and punishing the spec which is most dependent on spirit. Holy Priests are working similarly to how claim you want healers to work. So let them.

Once again you're forcing Holy Priests to grind endless amounts of valor to get any spirit cloth - a burden no other healer feels as strongly, either because they have drops or simply do not need the high levels of spirit - in the case of those of us who are Disc.

One chest. What is that, so we can't claim there's no spirit cloth?
Edited by Tiakatt on 11/18/2011 9:26 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
15550
Bottom line, this is a ploy to get people to play longer as well as well as to prop up the LFR tool which they're fearing is going to be a miserable failure. The problem is, there's a point where you frustrate and anger people beyond their desire to want to continue playing. I'm sorry, but this is going to hurt WOW more than help it. And there are a couple other games on the horizon that will be hitting long before MoP comes along, games that offer fun without all of the frustration attached.

It really feels like they are taking advantage of the people that signed up for the annual deal. Unfortunately for Blizzard, I'm fairly certain the entire playerbase did NOT sign up for it, which leaves plenty of people able to move along to other games, enough people to make another big dent in sub numbers.
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85 Draenei Shaman
7890
Thanks for making it harder for me to keep up with my guildies and friends on the new content I'm paying for.
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90 Undead Mage
10960
11/18/2011 08:08 AMPosted by Judelogun
imo ppl argue about this because gearing alts will be harder well I only have one thing to say to that "QQ more" gearing an alt to be just as geared as your main is utterly stupid there is a reason its called an alt because its not your main and if you alt is just as geared as your main its not an alt and your main is not your main if you complain about something like that we might as well call this game World of Altcraft.

You're right..We should only play with one toon! Don't try any others to find out which one fits you best!

Yet someone who just skimmed over what i said L2 read then you would have known im not against alts but the thought that ppl want this game to be easier for the sake of their ALT being just as geared or more than their main. You can see if the class fits you just by lvling it.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3160
RNG?
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85 Worgen Mage
2070
The only potential problem I see is that Healers and Tanks like to skip "Optional Bosses" Which is deemed any boss they don't need.


This has what to do with the VP problem?

11/18/2011 06:42 AMPosted by Gunny
1) removing the ability to measure DPS (no more Recount)


Absolutely not. If someone is underperforming, they should be removed from the raid. Period.

11/18/2011 06:42 AMPosted by Gunny
2) promote server community development by removing x-server queuing


If you want a community, you are free to begin a raid on your server or join a guild. Don't be lazy.

11/18/2011 06:42 AMPosted by Gunny
3) provide alternate paths to comparable gear for varying playstyles - differentiate by appearance


Differentiating by appearance simply gives players another way to discriminate. Also, this is happening next patch. Non raiders get a non-tier set that has their own appearance.

11/18/2011 06:42 AMPosted by Gunny
4) go back to not having ilevels on gear, or at least make them not visible to others


See number one - being able to see who is underperforming is an important part of raid leading.
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29 Human Warrior
165
To those that talk about welfare epics:

Tell me truthfully, do you realize what would happen if epics were only acquired by killing bosses. Meaning that the only way to get tier 13 (4.3 gear) is through raiding. Now let's jump forward to the end of MoP, which would probably be 5.3 patch and tier 17. Let's say go back to 12 bosses in MoP raids.

Now in 5.3 your guild (25 man) loses 7 core raiders. Also let's say that you are 5/12, your guild is a serious progression raiding guild. So at this time the raid leader would say hey all (raiders), we have to stop progressing on this current tier, so we can take each of the new raiders through the older tiers so we can get them gear up to join us. Counting rng, adding in the fact that more than one on the raid may need. This would mean it could take weeks or even months, depending on the raiding schedule.

You would have raid the older content to farm for tier 13 all the way to tier 16 for your new raiders. If you need heroic gear to beat the next normal tier, then you are talking even longer. Many months of raiding spent not progressing on the current content. Then all raiding guilds that lost members would months behind others in world and realm firsts.

Do you really think that guilds like Paragon, Blood Legion would say that this is a cool change. I do not think so, they would tell you are you crazy. As long as players earn the current tier through earning the points needed to get the current tier gear. Is far better than those that want epics only to be from dungeons.

IMO the only ones that are wanting such a thing are the ones that want that epic purple gear to be for them only, okay now I got it and you cannot have it type of attitude. They would not care if someone else truly put in the same effort they did in earning it. No they would not want them to be able to acquire it at all.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11680
I'm fine with that change personally, seeing as you'll get the same valor for every 5-man completion, which will still probably be the easiest way for most folks to obtain VP, short of the dailies, etc we'll see in MoP (based on Blizzcon presentations). For me that's the MOST welcome change, as ZA/ZG havs been a little played out since 4.2 hit :P Going back to full randoms will be a nice change, as well as gear droppage from the Dragon Soul 5-mans.

I'm also very interested in LFR, not just for potential rewards and being a good way to learn fight mechanics for normals / heroics, but also to get that PUG vibe back for 25-mans. Granted, there's some degree of imminent group failure, and you have to go into it knowing that it's going to occasionally happen. That said, I've had the chance to group with some pretty impressive players in 5-man randoms, and those occasional grand successes outweigh the occasional struggling runthroughs.

Moreover, my guild has had plenty of nights where we almost had enough people to raid, and with LFR, it'll be pretty easy to hook up smaller groups or fill out that other 1/3 or 1/2 of a 25-man. We're also in that situation where we tend to have a set 10-man group and a few players are left out of the opportunity, either because of their schedule or b/c they need some more experience. For us, I think LFR will be a big benefit especially to those near-raid players, as well as the group as a whole, and soon we'll be geared up for 10-man Dragon Soul normal while the remaining folks can still use LFR whenever they're free.

There's been a lot of difference of opinion between HC raiding folks who feel that casual folks or people who aren't actually raiding shouldn't obtain the tier gear. I'm one of those casual folks, and I completely agree - if I can at least use VP to get comparable, though not as good or iconic gear, I can still progress towards normals / heroics, but still have that tension and excitement when a boss drops and seeing if any of your gear dropped. People who earn it will again have had to work for it, but the path towards stuff almost as good or for fill-in will still be very accessible.
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90 Human Warrior
11380
Why not just give people Rested Valor Points just like Rested Experience. Everyone raids 10-mans now anyway so what difference does it make really? All these kids just want epics to show up in their bags, so just give rested valor points and my daughter's second grade teacher can get full Tier 13 at the same rate as Paragon and everyone will be happy, right?
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I thought one of the incentives to do 25 man over 10 was to get more points, so cap faster for the week?

Wow, that idea didn't even last the expansion it was put in for, did it?


Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding, but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.


so another step in killing the 25s model underway.

i disapprove. :( if you want to keep them rewarding, don't take away the reward and not add something in there to keep it rewarding.
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11/17/2011 02:29 PMPosted by Virtua
I think Blizzard is trying to kill 25 man raiding slowly so that they have an excuse to gut it completely in MoP. I can see it now, "Players just don't like those big raids, our data (that only we can see) shows that very few players enjoy 25 man raiding, so we're deciding to put more of our development team's focus on 10 man raiding!!!"


This is exactly what they did to demonic sacrifice (although it seems to be making a comeback in 5.0)

Talent changes moved demonic sacrifice to a place it was undesirable to get. Then the removed it because nobody specced into it.
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90 Draenei Paladin
11045
11/18/2011 10:53 AMPosted by Thezdin
Everyone raids 10-mans now anyway so what difference does it make really?


No, no they don't.

If that was true, this post wouldn't be at 19 pages.
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Dear Blizzard...
Your player base is screaming at you loudly! Will you listen? No one on either the casual or hardcore front is loving any of this HYPE you are trying to shovel down their throats. Either you guys fix this issue by listening to the players/dollars, or you get such a huge backlash that you release MoP too early and that causes even a bigger mass exodus from this game. Do you guys have someone on the inside working for EA and Bioware? I've defended you tirelessly against the flavor of the moment star wars pretty game. I can't anymore lol. Look how many people are pissed off in these threads! Piss them off worse and they'll probably just take their credit card off file and tell you to keep diablo and your mount just to stick it to you. For the record, i won't be jumping ship but if it ends up being as ridiculous as it seems it will be via the posts, I'll just dock permanently and go ashore.


there is plenty of people who like this change
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