VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

90 Worgen Druid
16190
So basically what I am reading from a few people is this:

"I dont want anyone else to just be able to buy the gear I feel I earned in downing bosses"

The issue with that is that most of us complaining here have downed the same bosses you have and we are saying that the RNG loot system as it stands right now sucks horribly and that from the underlying message from this change is that we will now have to rely on it even more so. Not only that, the rewards per boss kill in valor points is going to be less from now on because someone is basing this judgement off people who apparently max out every week and have nothing to spend it on. While I wouldnt disagree that these maxed out people exist, I can not see how they are the majority in this issue anywhere.

Then I see people complaining that Valor Point items are "welfare epics" and that just irritates the hell out of me. There is nothing but arrogance in stating something like that because regardless what you do to accumulate the points for purchasing valor items, you EARNED it, either by raids or spamming heroics over and over. Doing one heroic doesnt equal 1 valor item, and there is also a cap as to how many points you can earn from heroics alone as well each week in addition to the overall cap, so how are these people not doing work to get this gear? Yes, they may not be doing the raid bosses like you are to get the points, but maybe they cant, ever stop to think about that? Perhaps these people have really awkward work schedules and so when they have the chance to play, all they can do is heroics because their guild schedule doesnt afford them a raid time. Most people I know dislike PUG heroic runs as it is with the LFG tool but they do it anyway because its the lesser evil choice as it were, they don't even want to try pugging anything but Baradin Hold out of fear of the drama, immaturity and just chaos and stress that comes with being in a group of 9 or 24 other random people.

For those of you complaining that you dont want the rest of us to have the same gear you do, thats what Heroic raids are there for. Not everyone can do heroic raids, and its definitely an earned accomplishment when you complete it. In addition to getting better gear which is usually a different color then the regular pieces, it has that nifty little (Heroic) listed on its description in bright green for everyone to see and hey, you get an achievement per heroic boss too! I mean really guys, what more could you want to differentiate yourselves from the "casual" raider than that, I think those things are plenty. If it were up to some of you based on what some have said here, the rest of us would all be walking around in whites or grey items unless we raided with the likes of you which is just ridiculous.

Gear improvement is a fundamental part of this game. Improving your gear is what allows you to experience more difficult content. No one in this game gets gear for free that allows them to go from just hitting 85 to killing Ragnaros on heroic the next day. No one here is advocating that happen either. I dont see anyone pugging Heroic Firelands, even with the instance nerfs, I also don't see anyone pugging Heroic Bastion or Heroic Blackwing either. At the same time, pugs most of time arent getting regular current tier raids done either when they are first released. The only thing I knew of pugs doing on our server before the Firelands nerfs were farming trash for rep. Now with the LFR system they supposedly will have a nerfed version of the normal raid but at the same time get a nerfed version of the gear that drops as well. So whats the problem? They are still earning things, and because its supposed to be a scaled down difficulty level, the gear awarded for victory is also slightly lower than what you would get from doing it on regular. So there is your exclusivity you keep clamoring for right there, stick to the harder stuff if you have to differentiate yourself from everyone else that badly.

There is hardly anything to do once you hit 85 except raid, and if someone can't do that for whatever reason the game gets very boring very quickly and then they stop playing as much or altogether. The same thing applies however if I have to farm an instance for months for items that the luck of the RNG system doesnt hold in my favor and then have my option of taking my earnings over 2-3 weeks and getting a piece that I need off a vendor. I dont want to be forced to do a raid with a bunch of random people to have the opportunity to get that piece in lower quality just because my luck in random numbers isnt good. I like raiding with my guild, they are my friends and I enjoy myself around them in chat and on vent as we make our way through an instance. If I want to make new friends I will, but this seems like a ploy to force people into using the LFR to get items they have no luck in getting in regulars with their guilds. I shouldnt be forced to run with a bunch of random people to offset my gear simply because the RNG system doesnt work like it should.

The LFR system should be an option for people who have no guild, no cooperative schedule to raid, or just want something to do, not be used as a must for filling in gear gaps simply because people complain no one should be allowed to buy items from vendors with points that were EARNED and want to call them Welfare Epics. What amuses me is I would be willing to bet good money every single person complaining about vendor valor items and using that term has bought them to improve gear till they got a replacement drop off a raid boss, they just wont ever admit it.
Edited by Shadowwolf on 11/19/2011 1:23 PM PST
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11/17/2011 09:12 AMPosted by Eridan
and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses


I think you may be vastly overestimating how well the Raid Finder is going to work when you're making these plans. Right now it mostly seems to be allowing people to wipe on Morchok once or twice before the calls of "U ALL BADS" and the ragequits begin.


That sounds like what I expect to happen. Anytime i see someone calling for people to fill a spot in a raid, it's almost always accompanied with "MUST KNOW FIGHTS".

I haven't done ANY PVE raids in Cataclysm. I've watched videos of them, but I've watched videos of Heroics fights and but until I have DONE the fights on a specific toon, having watched a video only counts for having a vague understanding of an encounter.

People who are willing to explain things IN GAME ave RARE. The LFR tool is a nice idea, but in the absence of people willing to be helpful in-game, it' seems like it's just going to be a tool that will only be useful to a handful of people: those who already raid.
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11/17/2011 09:03 AMPosted by Dribble
One step closer to eliminating welfare tier!


What an arrogant statement.

Those of us who have spent countless hours enduring long queue times, impatient people, random ragequit delays in instances (along with some very wonderful people along the way as well) to earn the points to buy said "welfare tier" gear is insulting.
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90 Tauren Hunter
8110
As a raider and a PvPer and all, I enjoy this change:D It is so simple to look at in the long run:

.Raiding gear is more valuable than VP gear, such is the reason all tier tokens are a part of DS
.They are making you earn more in Heroic Dungeons because the gear there is less appealing to us
.If we are not happy with the drops, we can scrap up all the points we have atm and buy something with the larger variety of gear that the vendors have

This is the current system, it is just becoming more prevalent in 4.3 than it is as of right now. I for one am glad that doing heroics after heroics is not going to be my main path to get gear. Sure the helm and some other pieces in VP is nice, but if I raid heavily, then I will only need to buy a few pieces and not 10,000 VP of pieces.

Happy Hunting:D
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90 Worgen Mage
15160
If you want them to learn fights, teach them...If they don't want to learn, kick them. If they act like pricks report them. But please, above all else....stop the "virtual snob" attitude.


You didn't understand I thing I said, but are happy to call me a snob. Did you read it or just break your mouse quoting the entire post?

I spent countless hours assisting guild members to get them attuned to go into Karazhan. Running people through dungeons because they were guild members. I have continued to assist in any way I can from the day I started playing WoW over 4 years ago. Last night alone I spent an hour talking to a mage who had no real clue what they were doing gearing wise and was showing them what to do to get themselves raid ready so they can be accepted into a guild.

The entire point I was making is that the current design has left a gap that the vast majority have no interest in filling. I can garuntee you any guild that is focused on progression is going to spend little time trying teach a new player how to play their class and how to raid - they do not have the time. They are working on heroic modes, or complicated fight mechanics and do not want the added headache of another new player, because and this is in particular to 25 man raiding, each time you add one of the people, you then waste progression time getting them up to speed.

What I was arguing for was an intermediate step to allow new players to progress into raiding and yet that appears to be counter to what you want based on your stupid response in quoting me. You want new players to never raid?

I am sorry, but while you may want alternative ways to get gear, if you add them into the game in such a way that they diminish the reward from raiding you make the game worse not better. In the same way you just called me a snob, I could turn around and call you a wannabe crybaby who doesn't want to put the slightest effort into getting gear. Would I be correct? Probably not, but that is what happens when you assume and call people names and don;t even bother understanding the post of the person you are quoting.
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90 Worgen Druid
16190
You are entirely right in there being a need for some entry level like raid instance but sadly its too late to fix it in Cataclysm i think.

In vanilla at the start was only MC, but eventually ZG was added which helped, was a little easier than MC some of the time and 20 was easier to fill than 40.

BC had Kara, tho while 10 was nice entry level, it created a bottleneck in moving to the next step which a lot of guilds broke apart in trying to get to 25. Unless a guild could fuel 2 separate Kara's a week it was hard to make the jump to 25 and Gruul/Mag and beyond.

Then you had Wrath with recycled Naxx, which was actually awesome because of its sheer size was able to gear up and get people raiding practice well. Plus you had the option of 10 or 25 on it, and both ID's were separate (hint hint) which also meant that you could run the inexperienced in with a small mix of experienced and get some practice in, then come back with the same people and do 25.

Then we have Cata, where there was no entry level. Everything was just smacking you in the face from the start and for some silly reason (again my theory is to make content last longer by slowing down gear attainment), ID's for 10 and 25 were the same. So basically people not raiding for a while, never been before, or simply not as good as others or what the elitists on this forum would label as "bads", those people who react more slowly to things had nowhere to start ramping up a raiding experience that wasnt an Interrupt or Die situation where one mistake from anyone, especially with the majority of your raids in blues if you just started would cause a wipe. Most guilds if faced with an option of taking 10 people who are experienced vs mixing in or even taking 1 person not deemed as good will opt to leave the inexperienced out, leaving them frustrated and on their own.

People dont like being the cause for wipes, and believe it or not, they know when its their fault and for most it weighs heavy on them. Lots of things led to that feeling, healing changes, basically making all healers even ones who played for years have to essentially re-learn to play, the 1 rez per fight limitation made recovery on mistakes almost impossible if it was someone of a critical role (healer, tank, specific DPS class for specific fight mechanic duty).

These things haven't gone anywhere, they still exist, and so why its thought that LFR will work when now you'll be placing these people into a situation with random folks who have no patience or care to work with or teach new folks or work with less experienced folks is asinine. So essentially LFR will be good for existing raiders who are bored and thats about it, because your going to get people being kicked for "bad" or simply because their item level is 1 point too low for the leader, or for whatever reason, and if they cant kick anymore, then they will just leave the group which will cause the raid to fall apart as others will follow, and then they will re-queue and start the process all over again.

I'd like to be proven wrong, but somehow basing this off how LFG works, I doubt I will be.
Edited by Shadowwolf on 11/19/2011 10:46 PM PST
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....Then we have Cata, where there was no entry level. Everything was just smacking you in the face from the start and for some silly reason (again my theory is to make content last longer by slowing down gear attainment), ID's for 10 and 25 were the same. So basically people not raiding for a while, never been before, or simply not as good as others or what the elitists on this forum would label as "bads", those people who react more slowly to things had nowhere to start ramping up a raiding experience that wasnt an Interrupt or Die situation where one mistake from anyone, especially with the majority of your raids in blues if you just started would cause a wipe. Most guilds if faced with an option of taking 10 people who are experienced vs mixing in or even taking 1 person not deemed as good will opt to leave the inexperienced out, leaving them frustrated and on their own.

People dont like being the cause for wipes, and believe it or not, they know when its their fault and for most it weighs heavy on them. Lots of things led to that feeling, healing changes, basically making all healers even ones who played for years have to essentially re-learn to play, the 1 rez per fight limitation made recovery on mistakes almost impossible if it was someone of a critical role (healer, tank, specific DPS class for specific fight mechanic duty).

These things haven't gone anywhere, they still exist, and so why its thought that LFR will work when now you'll be placing these people into a situation with random folks who have no patience or care to work with or teach new folks or work with less experienced folks is asinine. So essentially LFR will be good for existing raiders who are bored and thats about it, because your going to get people being kicked for "bad" or simply because their item level is 1 point too low for the leader, or for whatever reason, and if they cant kick anymore, then they will just leave the group which will cause the raid to fall apart as others will follow, and then they will re-queue and start the process all over again.

I'd like to be proven wrong, but somehow basing this off how LFG works, I doubt I will be.


I do believe you have hit the nail on the head. When I started playing, it took me a while to understand that doing instances over and over was what you were 'supposed to do.' That never sounded like fun to me.

I'm not in a large guild, and do not want to be in one. A friend's guild spent weeks stuck in Kara because they could not get past Curator. That never sounded like fun to me.

I liked how you could get into a raid in Wrath and learn how to work within a raid.
Seems to me if they want people to see end game content, they need to make it far more accessible, and not just with the LFR. They need to ease the way rather than making everything ultra hardcore then nerf everything into the ground. Leave the last few bosses difficult.
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85 Human Warrior
10285
11/17/2011 09:03 AMPosted by Dribble
One step closer to eliminating welfare tier!


Go play in fire
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90 Gnome Death Knight
13495
Shadowwolf's got it right. The fundamental problem with the endgame model is threefold:

1) Lack of entry content
2) Lack of alternate means of gearing outside of the one raid timer per week
2) Community that has devolved into the lowest common denominator of group behavior

I'd argue that all three of these stem from one overarching problem: Blizzard's unwillingness to keep in line a tiny fraction of the player base (the mid-quality raiders who struggle with hard modes but who complain about how normal modes are too easy. These are, of course, the same people who are delighted by this being "one step closer to eliminating welfare tier.")
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85 Human Paladin
7760
@ Wwel

I think you have the right of it.
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85 Human Paladin
7760
@Shadowwolf

Well said

Myself I havent even bothered with raids this expansion, I missed the learning curve when Cat cam out due to my deployment in Iraq.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11785
11/19/2011 09:24 PMPosted by Virtutis
If you want them to learn fights, teach them...If they don't want to learn, kick them. If they act like pricks report them. But please, above all else....stop the "virtual snob" attitude.


You didn't understand I thing I said, but are happy to call me a snob. Did you read it or just break your mouse quoting the entire post?

I spent countless hours assisting guild members to get them attuned to go into Karazhan. Running people through dungeons because they were guild members. I have continued to assist in any way I can from the day I started playing WoW over 4 years ago. Last night alone I spent an hour talking to a mage who had no real clue what they were doing gearing wise and was showing them what to do to get themselves raid ready so they can be accepted into a guild.

The entire point I was making is that the current design has left a gap that the vast majority have no interest in filling. I can garuntee you any guild that is focused on progression is going to spend little time trying teach a new player how to play their class and how to raid - they do not have the time. They are working on heroic modes, or complicated fight mechanics and do not want the added headache of another new player, because and this is in particular to 25 man raiding, each time you add one of the people, you then waste progression time getting them up to speed.

What I was arguing for was an intermediate step to allow new players to progress into raiding and yet that appears to be counter to what you want based on your stupid response in quoting me. You want new players to never raid?

I am sorry, but while you may want alternative ways to get gear, if you add them into the game in such a way that they diminish the reward from raiding you make the game worse not better. In the same way you just called me a snob, I could turn around and call you a wannabe crybaby who doesn't want to put the slightest effort into getting gear. Would I be correct? Probably not, but that is what happens when you assume and call people names and don;t even bother understanding the post of the person you are quoting.



Struck a nerve? You are proving me right by raging and trying to explain that somehow people like you need a reason to feel better than other people. I run on 7 other 85s and some have the other raids complete and still got no gear, so don't talk about lack of effort when you don't know. People like you on one side of the spectrum are worse than the "bads" You didn't make your case.
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85 Human Warrior
11430
I don't really think that the crux of the issue, for me, is whether or not players who don't raid can get the valor points for gear that I can. That ship sailed ages ago and I'm perfectly content with the fact that players who are focused on 5-mans will be able to cap their valor points, just like players focused on raiding (i.e., me) can cap their valor points doing that.

What bothers me is that it actually seems like we've now gone a step further. You can't raid and cap valor unless you're willing to do past-tier raid content. That is incredibly lame, in the same way that no doubt 5-man players would be upset if capping valor required some mix of ZG instances and normal instances (or, more accurately, Dragon Soul and 5-mans).

I don't understand how this is an acceptable state of affairs at all in Blizzard's eyes. The only reason I can think that they'd do this is to ensure a healthy population of players in LFD/LFR, but that's ridiculous - the same way it would be ridiculous if they made it so that 5-man players couldn't cap their points from 5-mans to ensure a "healthy population of players interested in raiding."

The whole reason that 5-mans offer so much more substantial rewards than they did in TBC and WotLK is so that players who prefer running 5-mans don't feel like they're forced to do something they hate in order to progress through the game. I don't understand why raiders shouldn't have the same option.
Edited by Ahti on 11/20/2011 3:45 PM PST
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Right now it mostly seems to be allowing people to wipe on Morchok once or twice before the calls of "U ALL BADS" and the ragequits begin.


That's not surprising. The PTR is full of lookie loos who merely want to check things out, and aren't necessarily taking the prospect of killing a boss seriously. Also, there's less motivation to actually down a boss for their shiny loot when you "can't take it with you."

I think we're going to have to see what these LFR raids are like on live realms before we can really judge the way the community is going to act in them.


lol i agree i had a noob whisper me asking if there was a way to copy the toons from PTR to his account ............ ............ ............
Edited by Breacher on 11/20/2011 4:44 PM PST
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90 Worgen Mage
15160
Struck a nerve? You are proving me right by raging and trying to explain that somehow people like you need a reason to feel better than other people. I run on 7 other 85s and some have the other raids complete and still got no gear, so don't talk about lack of effort when you don't know. People like you on one side of the spectrum are worse than the "bads" You didn't make your case.


You did strike a nerve - it is people like you who put no effort into trying to make sure the game is plaayble by anyone who wants to. Your attitude is what causes new players issues coming into raids and then quitting and it's your ideas Blizzard followed this expansion that caused the raiding problems we now have - and yet you stand their on your high moral horse and claim that your ideas are better for the game?

Thankfully, Blizzard has recognised this problem and is in the process of attempting to rectify it as per their posts in relation to the Raid Finder implementation. Whether it is the correct way to go about it - personally I do not think so, but the reason for doing it is clear.

In addition, this was a post someone made in a larger thread earler:

I would add that the reason for raiding issues is that the development team adds new mechanics and increases the complexity of encounters the raiding "population" is not evolving at the same rate. If all guilds stayed together for 5 and 6 years then it wouldn't matter. The fact is that several members of my current guild have limited raiding experience. They have to learn 'raiding' from scratch.

In Vanilla WOW 99% of the raiding population had about the same raiding experiences. Today I would say there is much greater variation. That's what makes raiding so frustrating to the majority of guilds. An applicant may have great gear from valor points but have limited actual experience in raid combat and mechanics.

Professional sports has the same problem as older players retire and new players come up from college but thats the same for every team.If these teams played some simulated "great" team they would probably struggle. Perhaps the new lower tier raiding will help.


And this was Bashiok's response:

You're spot on, and while we were coming to some of those same realizations not too long ago, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your outlook) it's not something we realized in time for Dragon Soul. But we do plan to act on those realizations before too long.


Blizzard has already recognised the disparity between the entry level raiding and the heroic raiding.

Oh and

I run on 7 other 85s and some have the other raids complete and still got no gear, so don't talk about lack of effort when you don't know.


It is funny that you just accused me of not knowing what you do in game and insulting you on it - despite pointing out that I had no idea and was showing I didn't - yet that's what you did to me in your first post. It is alike arguing with a teenager - you don't read my posts, you do not even try to understand them, have no clue on Blizzard's stance through their posting, no clue what I do in game, accuse me of doing things you then do in the next post yourself and call me a snob. My sister is 16, I am pretty sure she has better communications skills then that.
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85 Worgen Warlock
6080
Blizzard is making PvP gear incredibly easy to get in 4.3 and making PvE gear incredibly hard to get in 4.3 lol. PvP will fall apart starting in 4.3 and, unless major changes take place to the suggested Resilience/Talent Tree iterations, the next expansion will ruin it entirely.

Why can't I run heroics until the weekly Valor cap if people can run RANDOM BGs to the weekly Conquest cap? Really, Blizzard, stop destroying PvP.

-Zaef, Shattered Hand.
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85 Undead Priest
7415
yay, i dont have to farm for my full BiS pre-heroic raiding like i did in FL.

farming my entire gear set was ludicrous. im still irked over the fact that for the first couple of weeks in FL i raided solely for VP.
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85 Human Mage
2295
Lowering the The VP,on a boss?? How many times now are we going to have to kill the same bosses over and over to get gear, Around and Around we go. To much Repetitious, over and over the same thing. People are going to just log when patches or expansions come out for something new and exciting. Getting gear was the high light of this game for me. Since the rest of the game is doing the same thing over and over, now I must do more over and over to get, the only thing that matters Gear. No i don't play wow night and day, SO i guess that makes me a casual player??
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11785
Haha! You make me laugh. You are in every way imaginable trying to somehow say that rewards in game should be done via your preference. Blizzard didn't follow anything of mine this expansion, i have lots of alts, raid with them and sometimes don't get anything. You are basically trying to group those who ask for alternatives as "Bads" or "people who want free epics in the mail on login" when it is nothing of the sort. So..with that being said, please calm yourself or you are going to blow a gasket. You will not find a post by me asking for free epics, hence making your case against me invalid. If you don't want folks calling you out on a superiority complex, then you shouldn't post. You got mad when you were called on something and rage even worse when something YOU disagree with in this game takes place..The raid finder isn't the be all end all for those wanting to get nice gear. Have you seen how bad some pugs are in heroics? They obviously aren't all that "faceroll" if people still get annihilated by something as easy as Zanzil or Jan'alai. How about the horrible RNG rates that some encounter? I don't rage about it, but you chiming that there should basically be no alternative is ludicrous. There's a difference in putting in the effort to run a raid, and wanting everyone else to know you put in the effort, which is what a snob would do. You don't like the answer i gave..Get over it. Some of you hardcore type or semi-hardcore type are worse than the trolls in trade. You QQ more than those that QQ for no pets on the holiday upon login. Raid with your own guild and you don't have to associate with us "bads who want free epix". You want to feel special, so i hope i provided that to you. =) =) =)

11/20/2011 05:19 PMPosted by Virtutis
Struck a nerve? You are proving me right by raging and trying to explain that somehow people like you need a reason to feel better than other people. I run on 7 other 85s and some have the other raids complete and still got no gear, so don't talk about lack of effort when you don't know. People like you on one side of the spectrum are worse than the "bads" You didn't make your case.


You did strike a nerve - it is people like you who put no effort into trying to make sure the game is plaayble by anyone who wants to. Your attitude is what causes new players issues coming into raids and then quitting and it's your ideas Blizzard followed this expansion that caused the raiding problems we now have - and yet you stand their on your high moral horse and claim that your ideas are better for the game?

Thankfully, Blizzard has recognised this problem and is in the process of attempting to rectify it as per their posts in relation to the Raid Finder implementation. Whether it is the correct way to go about it - personally I do not think so, but the reason for doing it is clear.

In addition, this was a post someone made in a larger thread earler:

I would add that the reason for raiding issues is that the development team adds new mechanics and increases the complexity of encounters the raiding "population" is not evolving at the same rate. If all guilds stayed together for 5 and 6 years then it wouldn't matter. The fact is that several members of my current guild have limited raiding experience. They have to learn 'raiding' from scratch.

In Vanilla WOW 99% of the raiding population had about the same raiding experiences. Today I would say there is much greater variation. That's what makes raiding so frustrating to the majority of guilds. An applicant may have great gear from valor points but have limited actual experience in raid combat and mechanics.

Professional sports has the same problem as older players retire and new players come up from college but thats the same for every team.If these teams played some simulated "great" team they would probably struggle. Perhaps the new lower tier raiding will help.


And this was Bashiok's response:

You're spot on, and while we were coming to some of those same realizations not too long ago, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your outlook) it's not something we realized in time for Dragon Soul. But we do plan to act on those realizations before too long.


Blizzard has already recognised the disparity between the entry level raiding and the heroic raiding.

Oh and

I run on 7 other 85s and some have the other raids complete and still got no gear, so don't talk about lack of effort when you don't know.


It is funny that you just accused me of not knowing what you do in game and insulting you on it - despite pointing out that I had no idea and was showing I didn't - yet that's what you did to me in your first post. It is alike arguing with a teenager - you don't read my posts, you do not even try to understand them, have no clue on Blizzard's stance through their posting, no clue what I do in game, accuse me of doing things you then do in the next post yourself and call me a snob. My sister is 16, I am pretty sure she has better communications skills then that.
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