VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

85 Human Paladin
My concern with this is that at the end of t12, I no longer have to spam dungeons I tremendously outgear for VP and am quite happy to have earned that right since we go 7/7 every week and cap that way.

Having to run dungeons at the start of a tier is one thing, but now even if we farm all 8 bosses in DS for 800 VP, and do BH for another 100 VP, in order to cap we have to go back into FL for two bosses or run a 5 man to cap.

You spend months learning to clear a raid and still have to go back into the previous tier or do 5 mans to cap? We should be able to cap off a full clear, please stop forcing old content on us. Bad enough we have to do it on alts that don't get full raid clears.

With weekly cap of 1000 vp, 8 bosses in DS should cap you, I can handle it if I had to do BH but please add an additional reason like a mount in there since pvp gear has limited appeal to raiders...

125 VP per raid boss please. (or back to 115 if we have to do BH)

Edit: LFR isn't an option. I run 10 man raids, in 25 my computer laughs at me. Would love an extra chance to raid in a week and was excited when I heard about it, then I found out it was only for people with real computers.
Edited by Slakthejust on 11/17/2011 10:07 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
As it has been said several times, you want to take the ability to get VP capped from Raiders through raiding, and force them to run LFD/LFR/BH to get capped? While I don't mind being social in the LFD tool on my alts, I have zero desire to take my main.
"Why not take your main?" Well, because an average 28k DPS on my warrior main makes most PuG tanks go "Waaah, stop that, you're making this hard for me!!" With alts, I can gear them up as I desire while staying paced with the average PuG group that, lets face it, isn't exactly impressive. I can also go on to say that I'll run a random dungeon with my guild. 10/5 = 2, 25/5 =5, you think you're gonna convince me that there's no way either raid size won't break up pre- or post-raid to get capped and not take all guildmates? How would this benefit trying to herd us into randoms?

I can understand it in the long run: Raiders get what they want from the VP tool then don't get so much excess VP, thus don't buy BoE VP gear to sell, thus more desire to run things from people with the coin to buy said stuff. If this is the mind set, just stop putting BoE items in the VP category. While I do gear up alts with the items, I myself wouldn't really miss them.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
Our intent is to start acting even more on our Mists of Pandaria philosophies of encouraging players to approach the content they want to, how they want to, and be able to work toward meaningful player progression.

That is from the Post about Conquest points but since it says the Content we want it applies here too,

Let us do both 10 and 25man per week not one or the other because it was our choice to run them the way we did in WotLK, and remove the stupid VP cap but keep the cap on the amount you can gain from heroic dungeons, Raiders deserve to get VP gear faster then people just running heroics because they are the ones putting in the bigger effort and Raids are the biggest part of what PvE is.
Edited by Alinara on 11/17/2011 10:07 AM PST
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85 Goblin Priest
I refuse to run dungeons in the LFD to get random people with bad awareness and low dps in the new heroics. Thankfully, it will only take 2-3 extra dungeons that I can run (with my guild) to get VP capped.
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100 Tauren Druid
We've made slight adjustments to the Valor Point (VP) drops on the 4.3 PTR which testers can now see. In both 10- and 25-player raids, bosses will now drop 100 VP each (down from 115 and 135 respectively). We’ll also be changing Firelands raid bosses to drop 50 VP per kill upon release of the patch.

This change is being made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses for the items they drop. In the 4.3 raid, tier sets can only be earned from boss drops, and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses, we think there will be less need for Valor overall. We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.

We appreciate your thoughts and constructive discussion on how these changes may affect you and your guild once 4.3 is released.

Seriously? Lower desire my foot! I'm working on a new alt that I want to raid on, and I *need* Valor in order to gear him up. A slower distribution of VP means it'll be longer before I can begin to raid on him. My guild has been running two FL runs per week for awhile and we're low on healers - my shaman was going to fill that in for group two, but now I might not be able to do that.

Thank you *so* very much for this brilliant change.
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4 Goblin Priest
This change is being made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses for the items they drop

So you plan on adding cloth gear with spirit so priest can 'desire' the gear to begin with?
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90 Orc Hunter
What about 10 man loot acquisition? Zarhym had mentioned that the drop rates / acquisition would be adjusted for 10 man (specifically tier tokens) in 4.3, but never followed up on what exactly was done.
Edited by Ovan on 11/17/2011 10:11 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
Bad idea. The incentive for running 25m is the extra valor so we don't need to step foot in to any 5m dungeons at all, that should not be taken away. 25m raiders should be able to cap from raiding alone.
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100 Gnome Warlock
I personally hate this changes.

Well for starters how will this changes make VP less desirable? Making people work harder to get it? That makes no sense. Having all the tier drop in the instance, especially in 10 mans will be horrible. I mean right now with only 2 pieces in Firelands and even back in BWD, ToFW, and BoT, some people get their off spec before others get a single tier. But at least you need to get only lucky on one boss to get the 4 pc set bonus.

LFR might be a good thing, but there are several things I dislike about it, like if you get in a group that kills the first two bosses and fails miserably at the rest; in the next group you join you will have to kill them again with no loot for your trouble and might even end up failing on the same boss and have to repeat the cycle again. If past experience serves us is that there will be one boss that will be unkillable on a PUG, or everything will be extremely easy and people will call LFR gear welfare gear... /shrug
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90 Human Paladin
Emphasis on killing bosses for the Items they drop seems appropriate and all, and IS the way things alreday are for Heroic gear, but the RNG frustration of 10man concerns me and more weight applied to what the RNG provides will only make it worse.
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90 Goblin Death Knight
we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.

This is an extremely misguided thought. If anything, I see valor being more valuable now, not less. Every slot has valor items available for it. In 4.2 I bought my Chest, Legs, Hands (hoping to get one to drop from BH before I had to buy them...) and Relic.

Now I can do all that but also want the other pieces. Not to mention off-spec pieces...

And... even if it were true, there's very little reason not to cap. The only thing this does is make raiders trudge through dungeons...
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85 Troll Mage
11/17/2011 09:00 AMPosted by Bashiok
This change is being made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses for the items they drop. In the 4.3 raid, tier sets can only be earned from boss drops, and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses, we think there will be less need for Valor overall. We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.

This doesn't make sense. It's either miscommunication, or a mistake. If you want to de-emphasize VP, lower the cap, not the amount each boss gives.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
Until the new 5man heroics get old for those of us who raid every week, this isn't that bad. But again this is progression and everything counts so we'll grind max each week as long as we have to. I just hope that in the future that Blizz makes sure that raids drop decent off tier pieces and make sure they spread them evenly if they now want this to be the main way to get raid level gear.

For example, Holy Paladin in 4.3 is the *only* spec that does not have off tier shoulders at all, our only upgrade is tier. I can understand low drop chances on SP plate, but excluding us in some areas simply because we're the only spec to use something feels like a kick in the gut even though I'm sure it's not meant to be. I hope this was just an oversight and not something we'll have to worry about in 5.0 raids.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11/17/2011 09:52 AMPosted by Hambgrhelper
(I'm still wearing a blue helm because Beth won't drop my new one.)

You mean Beth, Nef, and whatever boss it is in Zuls that drops something for you, right?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
Our intent is to start acting even more on our Mists of Pandaria philosophies of encouraging players to approach the content they want to, how they want to, and be able to work toward meaningful player progression.

I want to get my valor and conquest points by trolling trade chat. That is content to me. When will Blizzard reward me for doing what I want, rather than completing the challenges they put in the game?
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100 Night Elf Druid
One of the things valor helped with slightly was acquiring gear of an ilevel appropriate to get your foot in the door for raiding. And I don't mean at the beginning of a patch, but for those of us who come into the game a bit late.

I came back late october for your 1-year sub, and I can tell you one of the most frustrating things about returning mid-patch has been that nearly all the guilds are working on HM content, most of them seeming be 6/7 HM 10m. I managed to get onto a bench in one of those guilds and pretty much never get taken because I'm poorly geared, but also have no way outside pugging and VP to get 371 gear. It's a pretty disheartening problem, really. Raising the time required to get VP and catch up just makes it even more frustrating for all those customers you're trying to bring back.

Not all guilds are running heroic, not all guilds are hell-bent-for leather to be progression ... if you look hard enough. ;) However, most raiders are looking for those kinds of guilds, and there is a price you pay for being part of that play style. It all depends on if you want to raid or if you want the prestige of a progression raid-guild tag. My guild came into raiding late - so we're 5/7 normal in FL. We're always looking for folks - in fact we advertise we are the kind of guild specifically for folks looking to get back in to raiding as well as for folks who want to raid well, but need to balance real life with gaming.

That being said, I ^^this the comment. For the last 11 months I have been trying to get friends to get back into the game. From my hardcore friends, the comment above is THE NUMBER ONE reason they won't come back. In fact, last night one of them asked me to send him a Resurrection Scroll so he can send me all his toons' stuff as he has no desire to play anymore. And in a discussion I had with a prominent progression raider on my server, he, too, expressed his frustrations with the inability of players to get up to speed quickly.

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Well, with VP gear not being as good as the raid gear, it just puts VP gear more into the realm of a stepping stone instead of running into BiS for a few pieces (2 tier pieces, maybe neck, off hand, ring, and relic). So, I can see this being fine. I'd prefer to get my gear from the raids I run, since that's kinda the point, and leave the VP vendor for those gearing up alts.

The two things that have been troublesome, or rather, I'd like to see changed are:

1) random drops from raid bosses is way too random. My guild has been taking down Beth'lic since maybe a week or two into Firelands, and the tank trinket has only ever dropped once. You want us to get gear from raids, but with all the clutter from drops that aren't purtenant to our raiders this isn't really a great way to have any sort of smooth progression. I'd rather turn in 4+ pieces of junk drops for -something- we could use. Tokens to use at a vendor would help in this situation. My guild has cleared Firelands for quite a while, and there are many drops we haven't seen. I even raid with 1 alt with another guild, and 2 other alts off and on, and still haven't seen several drops. Some drops I've only seen 1-2 times, and they're rather important (weapons) for several classes.

2) Cross-character currency. I've earned the currency, why should it matter which character I use it on? Is this to punish me and have to go through, what I feel as grueling, gearing of my character? Not having this ability seems to go against the MoP philosophy.

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90 Orc Warrior
Hi Bashiok, thanks for the update.

Are there any plans for other systems to help combat bad RNG on boss loot drops? I hope you guys agree that this is still an issue. I've got a Holy Paladin friend who's killed Baleroc 14 times and Rag 8 and still has a 359 helm.
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