VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

100 Gnome Death Knight
14980
Welp, I can barely tolerate pugging 5-man heroics now. Most of my guild has quit the game because Cataclysm was such a big change for one reason or other. I won't be pugging raids, and it looks like I won't actually be getting uprades now.

I bet you're glad you get that $15 bucks a month from me by holding my guild hostage to the Guild Leader usurp change, because that's the only reason I'll be logging in. Seriously, Blizzard, you have burned through your very last iota of good will with me. It's astonishing to me how a game that once was so friendly and welcoming has become so hostile. A shame, really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA56J8zlAdo

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90 Human Rogue
13625

This change is being made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses for the items they drop. In the 4.3 raid, tier sets can only be earned from boss drops, and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses, we think there will be less need for Valor overall. We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.

We appreciate your thoughts and constructive discussion on how these changes may affect you and your guild once 4.3 is released.


The real issue for me is that VP has always been the consolation prize/alternative means of obtaining tier because complete RNG loot is awfully frustrating in many situations. For example, we've had for a long time just one paladin in our 10 man raid - no priests, and no warlocks. He is near to three specs worth of 4pc, because his helmet/shoulder tokens drop so often for us.

We are replacing our 2nd shaman with a priest this week, so this particular frustration will decrease - but we still have a bear and a tree, a blood dk (who offspecs dps for single tank fights), myself (combat) and a mage that share a token. Particularly having both our tanks sharing that token is going to be difficult come 4.3, given the assumed importance of the 4pc for hard modes. Being about to purchase 3pc with valor means that we could at least trade - one of them gets the helm and one gets the shoulder, then we move on to finish other 4pc before coming back to the tanks. And given again that tokens are as random as anything else, who knows when we'll get our 2nd or third vanq token from a given boss anyway?

It would be really nice if you guys could work on a way to alleviate this particular irritation. If for some reason we were going to dump all our raid toons and reroll, we'd do so with an eye to token distribution, for sure. On top of balancing buffs and such, this seems unnecessarily punishing, given the expressed concept of "bring the player not the class" - though I realize tier distribution was never the point of that concept.

Finally, it almost sounds like you want us to do our normal 10 man raid, and then get back together and queue for a random raid for welfare drops. I was planning to run raid finder on my alts, but now I have to do so on my mains as well? I'm having ICC flashbacks here :) I assume that isn't your intent, but that is what it feels like I'm looking at.
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100 Human Rogue
19405
11/17/2011 10:19 AMPosted by Morsk
This doesn't make sense. It's either miscommunication, or a mistake. If you want to de-emphasize VP, lower the cap, not the amount each boss gives.

No, that doesn't make any sense either. How does lowering the cap de-emphasize VP? If you take a pay cut does that lower your desire to buy nice things? No, it just means you have to work harder to obtain those nice things. As long as BiS items appear on VP vendors and bosses have non-intelligent loot tables, VP will always be desirable. Lowering the VP cap, which would make it take even longer to obtain some VP items, is not a solution.
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85 Human Warrior
6770
Seriously?
In all of our Chogall kills, my shoulder piece dropped maybe once, and it went to a holy paladin.
In all of our Staghelm kills, my shoulder piece dropped 3 times, first time to a prot pally, 2nd time to a shadow priest, and I *Finally* got mine last week.

All of our druids and warriors have every tier piece for their shoulders, and their offspecs, and now we're randoming them for gold.

You need to drastically increase the amount of gear that drops on 10 man difficulty if you're removing Valor Points as an avenue of advancement.


And this wasn't an issue in ToC/ICC, because everyone got their base tier, then normal raiders got better than 5 man raiders via the upgrade, and heroic raiders got better than everyone else with their token upgrade.

Everyone was happy, because the better you played, the better your gear was, just like people always want it to be.

You didn't play RNG slave, running around in vastly outdated gear because Lord RNG didn't grant you a blessing this day.

But people had to cry because they felt so offended that a 5 man dungeon player had the same set bonuses, and the same, slightly different coloured gear. So, now we're back to vanilla, where we can all spend a year never seeing our set bonus complete.
Edited by Faytal on 11/17/2011 11:37 AM PST
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85 Orc Warrior
0
11/17/2011 10:52 AMPosted by Ellissia
So those who don't get the favor of RNG Gods will get effed this coming patch? Blizzard god save us all.


Those that don't have loot that drops from bosses get effed even more. No spirit cloth, WTF?


Yep you are stuck with 397 pieces. I hope you start praying in advance.
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85 Tauren Druid
11260
Personally I really don't like the idea of players obtaining raid gear from things other than raiding. Being able to get three pieces of tier gear from VPs pissed me off to no end because players were gaining these without setting foot in a raid. I think that the LFR system is an awesome idea because it does a little bit to bring back the massively multiplayer bit to this MMORPG and makes it possible to raid even if you're short on time and availability. Lowering VP acquisition and usefulness makes perfect sense to me.

The problem though, is that there isn't much non-tier gear dropping from the eight bosses in this tier of raiding. If there are pieces that would better fit our stat preferences, we have to purchase those pieces from the vendors, after having already spent a mandatory 1250 VPs on a cloak and if you're a relic-using class, 1950. Gimping our ability to purchase non-tier pieces which we might consider preferable seems more obnoxious than anything else. In addition, with the VP drop change, by the time that players have enough VPs to purchase non-set pieces, they'll be closer to heroics, at which point 397 pieces would be inferior regardless of secondary stats and so throwing a VPs at pieces which will soon be replaced anyway will likely be seen as a waste.

And while we're talking about non-set items being vendor-only 397s, how is that justified to heroic raiders in light of the fact that there is currently no means to upgrade any Valor items? We don't have an option to take four pieces and a non-set piece and we don't have an option to take two pieces if we aren't thrilled with our four-piece bonus or happen to be in a fight where stacking one stat might win out slightly over a more situational four-piece bonus (as a Resto Druid, there are a few 4.3 examples where Timeslip ends up as more overhealing and I'd prefer to stack stats over the 4pc set).

As much as I seem to read Blue posters commenting on how they want to give players "choices", I certainly am not seeing it actually being realized in the game - whether it be through gear, glyphs, gems, enchants, talents, or anything else. Ever since Vanilla, our "choices" have become more and more limited to the point where now, aside from spell usage (which is kinda going away too, albeit to a lesser extent), the "rights" and "wrongs" are so obvious and there is nothing in between or situational. I understand that this is done with the intention of preventing the game from becoming some monstrosity that requires advanced math degrees to begin to understand, but I just don't understand why the game has to be dumbed down to this extent to prevent that.

I like choices. Reforging gives me some control and that's really nice. Maybe it's just me being greedy to say that I want more control, but I really do. I want to be able to have multiple sets of gear again, but when there are so few bosses in a tier of raiding, it's just not possible to provide options of gear for 9-ish armor types without overloading loot tables (I'll spare you my rant on why I believe making three five mans instead of a single War of the Ancients raid was foolish, especially in light of how few bosses are in T13 (and how contrived several seem) and how accessible raid content can be through LFR...). I think the VP change is a good idea because people should be getting raid gear from raiding, but it's nerfing my ability to make choices during the first few weeks or months that those choices would even be viable before I switch over to 410 gear. That's disappointing to me...
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100 Human Priest
19865
Seriously? So people who just do 5 mans can cap but raiders can't cap from raiding? That's BS. I don't want to run anymore 5 mans. I hate the idea that if a piece for that slot doesn't drop due to RNG that I'm disadvantaged in a raid because I don't want to run boring, stale 5 mans.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
7450


This change is being made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses for the items they drop. In the 4.3 raid, tier sets can only be earned from boss drops, and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses, we think there will be less need for Valor overall. We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.

We appreciate your thoughts and constructive discussion on how these changes may affect you and your guild once 4.3 is released.



I think all this does is punish the semi-casual, semi-hardcore. This does not affect the hardcore who will always meet the VP cap every week, and it hardly affects the casual who will not touch raids with a ten foot pole, and to whom, the idea of a "raid finder" with random scrubs sounds like a fate worse than death.

Who this affects is the people in between who are the "middle class" so to speak, and probably represent your core demographic. These are the people who can only raid on a limited basis, maybe only 1 or 2 times and with guilds that will not be clearing content quickly. Getting down 2-3 bosses for these guilds IS a big deal and represents a huge amount of time, time that most "middle class" players feel acutely. These players only have so much time to give and making it take longer like this does affect them... and it grates on them.

Further alienating the middle just seems like a bad idea.

I don't get it.

You said it yourself, it doesn't affect the hardcore... it affects the mid-core, and these people are leaving.

Wake up, Blizz.
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100 Human Priest
19865
This is a terrible idea.

As a holy priest, the complete lack of spirit gear in Dragon Soul forces me to look to VP and tailoring for 397 gear. I am going to need at least 5 pieces from VP and 1 piece from tailoring. As far as heroic gear, I'm either going to have to do what I did in t12, and take several non-spirit pieces, or stay with my 397s because there's no other option.

Actually, my heroic BIS gloves are shadow priest t13 -- thanks, Blizz.

Forcing me to run dungeons or old raids for weeks to cap my VP is incredibly frustrating, especially in light of the total failure to put drops I need on raid bosses.

There is absolutely no "reduced demand" for VP for cloth spirit gear wearers.


oh yeah, and this. with datamining there looked to be plenty of spirit cloth, but of course they were retarded and put none of it in the raid once again. I already have the worst gear of any healer in my raid because I cannot afford to lose the spirit on the 378 pieces, now I get to have the worst gear AGAIN? I can't believe they pulled this crap 2 tiers in a row.

Thank god I'm quitting when MoP comes out. I've had enough of their crap decisions. I'm not running boring 5 mans because they decided to not let raiders cap points from raiding.
Edited by Elliora on 11/17/2011 11:44 AM PST
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85 Undead Warlock
5015
Seriously?? I really hope you lose a major base of your players for this change. Who in their right mind thought this was gonna be a good idea? And you have that much faith in LFR? Do you guys even play the game? LFD is already enough of a headache without having to deal with another 24 people now. I for one will be done with this game if this change goes live. Skyrim>WoW
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85 Troll Mage
9365
11/17/2011 09:12 AMPosted by Eridan
and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses


I think you may be vastly overestimating how well the Raid Finder is going to work when you're making these plans. Right now it mostly seems to be allowing people to wipe on Morchok once or twice before the calls of "U ALL BADS" and the ragequits begin.


I just cleared Siege with the LFR tool on the PTR and had 0 wipes...
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85 Human Warrior
6770
11/17/2011 11:46 AMPosted by Gunny
So what do non-raiders do for gear progression after they get their heroic drops? What's the incentive to keep them playing?


This is completely true. The tired "Why do non-raiders need raid gear" argument is so grating at this point.

If a player does the same damage on day 1 of a patch that he does 200 days later after grinding heroics endlessly, what purpose does he have to keep playing?

It doesn't matter if the guy is so anti-grouping that he only quests solo, period. He still needs a valid path of character progression, or he's another $15 a month out the door.

To the person you were originally quoting, I have to ask. I was an ok raider in vanilla, never got far. I raided quite hardcore in TBC and took a break from raiding over most of Wrath. Why does it bother you oh so much that people got the lower ilvl tier items from badges?

I mean, that clearly makes it that you don't raid for the enjoyment or the guild interaction, you raid solely to play "Virtual Superiority Complex" over lower geared players.

I wouldn't care if Heroic Rag drops came from Stonecore, I play for the excitement of fighting that boss, for the great times raiding with my guild, NOT for the feeling of riding my high horse around town in a video game, and that excitement comes to me regardless of what other people are doing or the items they're obtaining.

The fact that it "pissed you off to no end" that people had the same items as you in a video game is disturbing.
Edited by Faytal on 11/17/2011 11:58 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
12370
If you guys are going to this sort of thing, you need one heck of a incentive for players to complete a LFR. Valor doesn't seem like it's going to be enough. A suggestion, a goodie bag; with possible epic gems, chaos orbs, essence of destruction, burning ember, flasks, flood, and a possible rare rare drop of a past raid mount.


LFR is god awful to pug, people drop in mass, troll, facepull, it's just not a fun experience. It needs a HUGE incentive to complete, so people hush up and git r done. Valor just to borning for that, plus getting capped isn't that hard. Even with this change.
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90 Troll Hunter
14005
Is this bizarro-world? With conquest they want us to do the content we want. With valour they want us to use LFR to fill gearing gaps presented with limited tier token availability from normal raids/vendors.

These 2 approaches seem completely at odds.

"PvP players - gearing up now doesn't require RBG/Arenas"

"PvE players - gearing up now requires LFR"

So apparently I must run heroics and LFR to gear up as a PvE'er, but I do not have to run RBG/Arena to gear up as a PvP'er. Apparently the former is ok, but the latter is more inline with their goals for 5.0 and beyond - gear up and play how you like when you like.

Does. Not. Compute.
Edited by Hurarao on 11/17/2011 11:59 AM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
11260
11/17/2011 11:46 AMPosted by Gunny
Let's be realistic. LFR won't be a realistic approach to successfully gearing a toon until it's filled with Raider alts, the content is a lot older, and people have all the gear they can nab from VP. So the first few months if not longer of LFR will be a nightmare for anyone queuing for it.


Have you tried it on the PTR? It's not terrible at all. No, not every group is capable of clearing 8/8 with one-shots all the way, but no one should be able to clear any raid in the first week on any mode so LFR raiders will still have to work through bosses one at a time like everyone else. Raiding isn't the easiest thing in the world, but the LFR bosses are fairly easy, even with people in LFR-level gear. I'll be surprised if it's completely inaccessible for "the first few months if not longer".
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7 Tauren Shaman
0
can you drop the cost of old stuff on the jp vendor now

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85 Human Warrior
6770
11/17/2011 11:59 AMPosted by Rivertam
ave you tried it on the PTR? It's not terrible at all. No, not every group is capable of clearing 8/8 with one-shots all the way, but no one should be able to clear any raid in the first week on any mode so LFR raiders will still have to work through bosses one at a time like everyone else. Raiding isn't the easiest thing in the world, but the LFR bosses are fairly easy, even with people in LFR-level gear. I'll be surprised if it's completely inaccessible for "the first few months if not longer".


Why yes, I have tried it on the PTR. I'd have to ballpark it around 20 times I've queued into the LFR now (More playtime on this PTR then the last 2 months of live, I'd bet) in every different role, from Ret, to Disc Priest, to Feral Druid, to Prot Warrior.

It's been the most nightmarish thing I have ever experienced in this game, and this alt I'm posting on has been around since 2005, and I had characters before her. Quite an accomplishment to top 7 years of terrible experiences within 1 PTR.
Edited by Faytal on 11/17/2011 12:06 PM PST
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