4.3 Feral Cat Feedback (Theorycraft)

85 Tauren Druid
5435
Hi, I'm the co-developer of Mew (Cat DPS Simulator) and maintainer of the Cat DPS Guide on the druid forum. I've recently found some time to run some tests on the 4.3 changes to Feral DPS with the help of Yawning and Mihir, and here are a couple of feedback we have.

1. Glyph of Bloodletting

This change was made, I believe, with the intention to reduce our DPS penalty when forced to use Mangle. Unfortunately from our simulations it will not do anything.
Here are the simulation results (based on 410 BIS gear vs Ultraxion) with various Glyph options.

Glyph of Rip + Glyph of Berserk + Glyph of Mangle = 47788.37276 DPS +/- 5.78864
Glyph of Rip + Glyph of Berserk + Glyph of Bloodletting = 47353.60084 DPS +/- 5.47222
Glyph of Rip + Glyph of Bloodletting + Glyph of Mangle = 47638.99752 DPS +/- 5.56853
Glyph of Bloodletting + Glyph of Berserk + Glyph of Mangle = 46976.64711 DPS +/- 5.56459

Which means using the new Glyph of Bloodletting is actually a DPS loss compared to our 4.2 best glyph setup, and doesn't do anything to relieve us of the penalty we face

2. Ultraxion

According to feedback from the PTR, Ultraxion has to be meleed from the front, but he has a mechanic that doesn't allow him to parry. If we compare our DPS against a normal boss that can be shredded from the rear and a boss like Ragnaros (in 10 man) which is meleed from the front and can parry, here are the simulation results:

Normal Shreddable Boss: 50683.32362 DPS +/- 6.4216
Ultraxion: 47788.37276 DPS +/- 5.78864
Ragnaros: 46202.91148 DPS +/- 5.96674

This means we are looking at a 5.7% DPS penalty against Ultraxion where other Melee DPS will be facing 0% penalty.
This is actually more severe than the 8.8% DPS penalty against Ragnaros (who can parry) because other Melee DPS will be facing some penalty (not sure exactly how much) from parry.

3. Expertise

Dragon Soul has a lot of Expertise Rating in leather agility gear - possibly way too much. Our optimal collection of BIS gear has 1369 Expertise Rating, reforgeable down to 824, which is still over the 781 softcap. More details @ http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3010801378


I hope this helps in your 4.3 Development. If you need more data or clarification, please feel free to contact me directly. Thanks!

EDIT: Added section on Expertise
Edited by Tangedyn on 11/16/2011 2:12 AM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
7250
11/15/2011 10:29 PMPosted by Tangedyn
where other Melee DPS will be facing 0% penalty.

Well, unless you're a non-Combat Rogue, anyway.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
17010
Unless they've changed something, berserk is affected by last defender of azeroth so you can have extremely high uptime on berserk on Ultraxion, especially if you are still wearing the T12 bonus.
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90 Tauren Druid
0
11/15/2011 10:59 PMPosted by Asthas
Unless they've changed something, berserk is affected by last defender of azeroth so you can have extremely high uptime on berserk on Ultraxion, especially if you are still wearing the T12 bonus.


While true, at least when I tested it like a month ago, I'd honestly prefer this get fixed (I.E. remove berserk from the buff and/or prevent cats from getting said buff, probably option 1) and have him shreddable again. This is just a really odd workaround to put in.
Edited by Ahanss on 11/15/2011 11:05 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Warrior
17010
11/15/2011 11:04 PMPosted by Ahanss
Unless they've changed something, berserk is affected by last defender of azeroth so you can have extremely high uptime on berserk on Ultraxion, especially if you are still wearing the T12 bonus.


While true, at least when I tested it like a month ago, I'd honestly prefer this get fixed (I.E. remove berserk from the buff and/or prevent cats from getting said buff, probably option 1) and have him shreddable again. This is just a really odd workaround to put in.


I'm not sure why berserk is on it in the first place. I guess they figure its technically a survival boost with the T 13 bonus, so on principle it should be affected by the buff. Its also possible that whatever mechanic alters the ability can't differentiate between berserk and say barkskin, seeing them both as self buffs with a cooldown, but that seems unlikely. Easy way to tell is if it affected things like recklessness for warriors.

Given that he was shreddable from the front at first and it seems to have been purposefully removed, I'm guessing they are resigned to cats benefiting from the berserk buff and want there to be a bit of a counter balance. The collateral damage to sub and mut I guess is preferable to feral druids being absolute monsters on the fight.
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90 Worgen Druid
14570
All valid points that should be addressed. Good number crunching over here.
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85 Tauren Druid
5880
Most likely this won't be taken into consideration and feral druids will just be called whiners, par usual, even though this is a very valid point.
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90 Tauren Druid
14240
I really do hope to see this addressed. With as middle of the road feral is, having a dps check boss with a 5.7% penalty when the rest of the dps face none of the same issues is problematic.
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91 Draenei Shaman
4410
It's a completely valid point.

From what I hear, that ultraxion buff works with every cooldown on every class that has a tank spec. That's almost certainly a bug, and I would be nervous counting on a bug going live to make ferals viable on this fight. Even if it does go live for a time, the devs have a propensity to see a bug and stamp it, then deal with the consequences (a very long time) afterwards.
Edited by Slant on 11/16/2011 9:51 AM PST
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90 Undead Priest
0
What is amusing to me is that not that many weeks ago, you could use Backstab/Ambush/Garrote/Ravage/Shred all from the front on this boss. For whatever reason, Blizzard decided to punish 3 specs, and only 3 specs, for reasons I can't really understand.

Obviously Ravage is not that big a deal (although I believe it is tied in with the T13 bonus if I am not mistaken), but Shred is, as your math suggest. Assassination misses out on it's Garrote opener, as well as Vanish/Garrotes for higher burst, usually during Vendetta, and Assassination is completely unable to Backstab during execute phase. Subtlety is completely screwed here, because not only can they not Backstab at all, and are forced to rely on Hemorrhage, but they can't proc Find Weakness from Ambush without getting behind the target. That is huge. No Find Weakness equals dead spec on this fight. A fight Subtlety should theoretically excel on.
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88 Worgen Death Knight
6385
11/16/2011 09:50 AMPosted by Slant
From what I hear, that ultraxion buff works with every cooldown on every class that has a tank spec.

So frost DK's will be looking at 100% uptime on pillar of frost? Resto druids with 50% uptime on tree form?

Yeah I can see that going live, hotfixed 24 hours later and breaking something major for 3 months.
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85 Troll Druid
9955
11/16/2011 09:50 AMPosted by Slant
From what I hear, that ultraxion buff works with every cooldown on every class that has a tank spec.


I can confirm that it didn't work with Barkskin as a moonkin. That was one of the first things I tried.

Likely it works with all cooldowns for tank specs. Feral is just in an odd spot there.
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100 Worgen Druid
13100
11/16/2011 06:33 AMPosted by Toyala
Most likely this won't be taken into consideration and feral druids will just be called whiners, par usual, even though this is a very valid point.


Most likely.
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85 Night Elf Druid
4160
When I had gone Bearform (in cat spec) at the beginning of the fight to gain the Last Defender of Azeroth buff, my berserk did not have a reduced cooldown. So either this was fixed or my bar cooldown mod (Omni-CC) was off.

In regards to the expertise you make a very valid point. I was looking through our choices in leather this time around and it seems the only way not to be massively over the cap is to take the off-set gloves, though I'd prefer the offset helm, but look at that - MORE EXPERTISE.

The last point I noticed is the choice of only one agility neck, and our ONLY choice for 410 legs is t13. That neck has haste/hit and as such is poorly itemized for Bear Druids, Enh shamans and (to an extent) feral cats if haste/mastery builds stay as close as they have this patch. I'm not an avid theorycrafter for bears or enh shamans but I do believe bears will take the PvP neckpiece over this, as the stats on it are 2 of their weaker (haste being weakest in general) stats.

Overall great post Tangedyn, the mangle portion concerns me and we can hope it will be addressed soon, though I don't see it happening before the patch goes live.
Edited by Kals on 11/19/2011 5:55 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
14240
Itemizing properly is hard and requires far too much thought. Especially in the last tier....
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90 Tauren Druid
0
11/19/2011 05:34 PMPosted by Kals
When I had gone Bearform (in cat spec) at the beginning of the fight to gain the Last Defender of Azeroth buff, my berserk did not have a reduced cooldown. So either this was fixed or my bar cooldown mod (Omni-CC) was off.

I've also heard it's been fixed, so I doubt it's just an addon problem :D.
Edited by Ahanss on 11/19/2011 8:44 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
11275
Apparently, after some number crunching, it's not a fix for long term (read: whole raid boss fight) positional restrictions. The numbers from the OP, assuming they are accurate, fairly clearly show that Mangle spam will result in better DPS with the Mangle Glyph as opposed to the new change to the Shred Glyph becoming this new and improved Bloodletting Glyph. This means that Mangle providing Rip extensions, while nice, does not provide more DPS than the 10% boost to Mangle provided by the Mangle Glyph in a scenario where you're forced to spam Mangle due to not being able to Shred.

It's easy for me to say that we build combo points quickly enough to renew a Rip whenever it falls off while spamming Mangle. The extensions are nice, but the "meat" of why Shred > Mangle hasn't got so much to do with extending Rip so much as being significantly more powerful than Mangle.

The change to Bloodletting does not fix the single largest problem of positional requirements for Ferals if another glyph (the same glyph we've been using for these situations) is superior.

The Bloodletting glyph seems more of a fix for short term positional restrictions. I am thankful for the change as there are many occasions that warrant the quality of life change that this glyph will provide. I could go over a number of them, but to keep it short: The occasions where DKs use army on a 5man boss. Sadly, it doesn't look like this glyph change is going to resolve what many of us had hoped it would.
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- World of Warcraft
91 Night Elf Druid
12785
Pandaria will fix it...

...

/cry

Several of the druid specs have these problems that aren't being addressed in 4.3 that makes me really just count down the days to the next expansion.
Edited by Lissanna on 11/21/2011 7:50 AM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
14240
Crazy effing idea here. Why not revert the shred glyph change, and change glyph of mangle to include the rolling dot in addition to the damage...
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85 Night Elf Druid
10970
Crazy effing idea here. Why not revert the shred glyph change, and change glyph of mangle to include the rolling dot in addition to the damage...


That still wouldn't fix the problem.
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