The Cleric's Codex [A PvE FAQ; 4.3]

85 Night Elf Priest
8145
"Uptime" is the amount of time a buff is active. Since PW:S drops when it is destroyed, "uptime" reflects how long your shields lasted before being destroyed.


I'm well aware of what uptime is. A person who casts a shield once every 15 seconds is going to have less uptime on Power Word: Shield than a person who is reshielding as often as SoS use allows them.

And knowing that Rapture is up again means being able to do something about it. Maybe not with another Shield on the tank, if he was Weakened Soul, but possibly on someone else--depending on the fight.

All we really know about Rapture from the log was that he was at 68.9% of the Raptures he could have gotten. The final half Rapture is discounted, because it's impossible to get a half proc on it. We know that he used PW:Shield 41 times, only about half of which were on the tank. We have no way of knowing which shields contributed to the Rapture procs, if he was tracking them, etc.

The average PW:Shield on the tank absorbed nearly 226k. The tank was also wearing the Heroic Porcelain Crab, and had 80 seconds of its 1710 mastery proc.

And, honestly, I don't think I would ever choose that fight to illustrate any point being made about PW:Shield use. I'm not sure why you did.

You're also chasing a point I never made. In no way have I ever suggested that a person should forgo Shielding the tank until the ICD is back up, or within a second or two of being back up.

More importantly, it encourages a bad style of play.

If you're waiting for the ICD to expire before recasting PW:S, the best you can ever do is 12 sec + average break time. This generally means in the 16 - 18 sec range.

The mistake most players make is in presuming that PW:S "instabreaks". But it doesn't. Indeed, it has a fairly low chance of breaking in the 1 - 3 sec range that many players seem to believe is the 'norm'.


I'm not sure anyone would consider 3 seconds an "instabreak". I've seen shields sit on tanks. I've seen them break within the GCD. I'm willing to say that I was exaggerating last night; however, I'm not exaggerating when I say that I expect a shield to break at around the 3 second mark, on average.

There are times, on some fights, where I don't expect it will break for five or six seconds.

11/23/2011 08:22 AMPosted by Tiakatt
I think my short Post #32 got lost in the middle of a long discussion.


It wasn't. I altered the haste breakpoint title to reflect your suggestion. Also probably adding Inner Sanctum to the Shadow options.
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20 Night Elf Druid
80
11/23/2011 02:35 PMPosted by Elethia
I'm not sure anyone would consider 3 seconds an "instabreak". I've seen shields sit on tanks. I've seen them break within the GCD. I'm willing to say that I was exaggerating last night; however, I'm not exaggerating when I say that I expect a shield to break at around the 3 second mark, on average.


Let's take a look at the top US Discipline Priest 10H parse for all the non-Baleroc fights:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/onm1lgn5vqnf2bct/details/31/?s=2438&e=2765
Bradleypitt 4.16 sec
Mantasy 6.06 sec

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/hwar1073a776yix2/details/10/?s=3652&e=3899
Balak 5.0 sec

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-v0q2h643t007851r/details/0/?s=3311&e=3663
Snokey 4.86 sec
Rockmellon 4.50 sec

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/bfi17rypp6wlozup/details/32/?s=4948&e=5103
Raptyrerex 2.63 sec
Myrica 2.92 sec

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/tmkcu24wsmvhgtau/details/8/?s=6280&e=6682
Cragwheel 4.64 sec

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/b8ca4ywmdj4uab1d/details/5/?s=6482&e=7129
Midnightrun 4.24 sec
Zoraena 6.86 sec

This obviously isn't any sort of comprehensive analysis, but it does strongly imply that a 3 sec average would be pretty low for most of the Firelands fights. Note that these averages can potentially be skewed by excess PW:S that simply expired (upwards) and raid events (downwards).

If you see someone who is only getting Rapture procs every 30 sec or so, the issue isn't that they need to download an add-on. It's that they're not using PW:S enough.
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85 Troll Priest
14165
Calaris, I'm not so sure why you are so deadset in this Rapture statement. Elethia may have gone back and added the portion about "not limiting yourself to PW: Shield for Rapture gains" but I doubt anyone would argue that, nor would someone inform a new player to "only use PW: Shield for Rapture."

Those days are long gone.

Now, I personally like to see the ICD of Rapture when I'm healing as Disc. Do I hit it everytime? Of course not. I'd be the first to admit I really suck at managing it. But unlike a Resto Druid's HoTs which restore mana regardless of whether they overheal or not, PW: Shield can be a more tricky thing.

When you are working on a fight where your mana is spread thin, wouldn't you want to have a visual representation of Rapture occurring aside from a power gain that scrolls over your toon and vanishes? I rather like seeing my Power Aura for Rapture displayed when its on cooldown, and then being able to see that its off its ICD. Is there a chance that I probably didn't have the tank shielded? Most likely. I'm not a perfect player and neither are a lot of people out there. But this simple notification tells me "wow I should (remove WS and) place PW: Shield on the tank to get mana back."

If its trivial content, like Heroic Shannox or even Heroic Rhyolith for that matter, I could care less if I'm getting every Rapture possible. If its something like H Beth'tilac which is still a challenging fight, to me at least, I would love a visual/audible representation of the ICD on my screen.

Does it alter my shielding pattern? No. But it does tell me I'm a moron for missing out on 2 (or maybe even 3) Rapture procs in a row.

The next week I go in I make sure to keep PW: Shield on the players intercepting the spiders that explode in addition to the Drone tank, and rotate Greater Heals on them to the best of my ability to remove WS and get another shield going.
Edited by Ashleycakez on 11/23/2011 5:26 PM PST
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20 Night Elf Druid
80
11/23/2011 05:25 PMPosted by Ashleycakez
Does it alter my shielding pattern? No. But it does tell me I'm a moron for missing out on 2 (or maybe even 3) Rapture procs in a row.


Information which you could have gleaned from the logs after the fight.

The point I'm trying to make is that PW:S is such a core part of Discipline's healing that I find it difficult to understand why someone would need to be reminded to cast it. It's like a Resto Druid complaining that his mastery always drops because he forgets to cast Rejuvenation.

I have no particular problem with displaying the ICD - I have it displayed on my UI via my cooldown bar, in fact. The problem is with the idea that it's a solution to the problem of low Rapture procs. If you're getting low Rapture procs, it's almost certainly because you're making bad choices with your spellcasting not that you're timing them poorly.

It's also generally a bad approach. You only have so much attention to divide between the various tasks you need to do. So you want to exclude as much information as you possibly. Yes, it might be useful to know when your Rogue's Blade Flurry is off cooldown. But it's not useful enough to justify wasting your attention on, so you don't try to track it. If a piece of information is not going to significantly impact your play, you don't want to know about it because it will just be a distraction.

We all have extraneous elements in our UI. For example, I use a mod called Prat to prettify my chat box. But I'd never write a guide on how to play a Priest where I recommended that raiding is much easier when you've got multi-colored chat box text.
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85 Troll Priest
14165
11/23/2011 07:32 PMPosted by Calaris
I have no particular problem with displaying the ICD - I have it displayed on my UI via my cooldown bar, in fact. The problem is with the idea that it's a solution to the problem of low Rapture procs. If you're getting low Rapture procs, it's almost certainly because you're making bad choices with your spellcasting not that you're timing them poorly.

But then you say "you shouldn't hold off a PW: Shield use to gain Rapture," unless I am mistaking your previous posts.

So, last night when I was healing Baleroc and glanced at my Power Aura that indicated Rapture was almost ready and saw 11 seconds. By how I've interpreted your previous posts I should not have placed another PW: Shield on the tank that broke in the GCD before Rapture was ready. Because there's a missed Rapture proc right there not brought on by not using PW: Shield and alternatively, using it too early to proc the effect. Which event classifies the bad Priest, the one who waits for the ICD or the one who misses the ICD due to using PW: Shield when WS is off? It sounds like you saying both ways count as the "bad" Priest because you will see that Rapture delay in the logs, which seems to indicate some sort of failure, as does postponing the placement of PW: Shield on a target of which it is likely to break.

The problem isn't using PW: Shield, its knowing when it will break, which is not an easy task. This isn't something a Druid really has to think about when getting procs from Revitalize. If a Druid isn't keeping their HoTs up they are doing something terribly wrong. But a Disc Priest could be using PW: Shield often, but missing on Rapture procs and doing it wrong (especially if they don't talent into SoS and there is little AoE damage).

If a Disc Priest shields 2 players and their Shields break 2 seconds apart, well, that doesn't do anything for Rapture but it doesn't make the Disc Priest bad. What may make him bad is not using another PW: Shield on another target on which it is likely to break or removing WS (provided he has the SoS talent) via Greater Heal/Flash Heal.

Alternatively, your PW: Shield (and Divine Aegis) combo could be too strong and not break at all, as I happened to witness on a Normal Beth'tilac pull. This doesn't make the Disc Priest bad either because he didn't get a Rapture proc, he still absorbed damage.

11/23/2011 07:32 PMPosted by Calaris
We all have extraneous elements in our UI. For example, I use a mod called Prat to prettify my chat box. But I'd never write a guide on how to play a Priest where I recommended that raiding is much easier when you've got multi-colored chat box text.


Are you calling a CD monitor an extraneous element? I fail to see how it is comparable to a purely aethestic addon like Prat or ButtonFacade or kgpanels.

11/23/2011 07:32 PMPosted by Calaris
It's like a Resto Druid complaining that his mastery always drops because he forgets to cast Rejuvenation.


I think you meant to say a single target heal like Regrowth, Nourish, HT, or Swiftmend. :x

It is possible to have PW: Shield up on loads of people, and frankly I don't find the comparison similar at all. If a Druid forgets to cast well then that's a serious mechanic failure on his part. A Disc Priest doesn't avoid casting PW: Shield with any frequency.
Edited by Ashleycakez on 11/23/2011 10:18 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Priest
8145
The problem is with the idea that it's a solution to the problem of low Rapture procs. If you're getting low Rapture procs, it's almost certainly because you're making bad choices with your spellcasting not that you're timing them poorly.


It can be. Monitoring Rapture gives you that much more information about what's happening. Ingela's Rapture is set to make a sound when Rapture is up. It's a simple reminder that, HEY, LISTEN, your Rapture is available again. For people who make bad choices, or for people who want to work on maximizing Rapture returns, it's available.

If you see someone who is only getting Rapture procs every 30 sec or so, the issue isn't that they need to download an add-on. It's that they're not using PW:S enough.


It isn't a matter of 30 seconds or so, though. It's pushing it from, say, 20 seconds, 17 or 15. If someone is having mana issues, focusing more on Rapture is/should be a good thing. Addons can help.

This obviously isn't any sort of comprehensive analysis, but it does strongly imply that a 3 sec average would be pretty low for most of the Firelands fights. Note that these averages can potentially be skewed by excess PW:S that simply expired (upwards) and raid events (downwards).


Having a sample size of one or two priests per encounter is hardly enough to strongly imply anything.

Regardless, you also need to take into account that this is not just a raiding FAQ. So focusing solely on raiding encounters isn't very useful. If I recall correctly, you did the same thing to Ashley's thread--and that one was specifically labelled for new and non-raiding priests.

Uptime on PW:Shield varies. Yes. You can't micromanage it to pop at the right time for absolute Rapture return. Correct. But you can ballpark it enough to improve your Rapture return.

11/23/2011 07:32 PMPosted by Calaris
Information which you could have gleaned from the logs after the fight.


Except that knowing you're making a specific mistake during an encounter means that you can make an immediate change to your behavior.

Bottom line is this: an addon like Ingela's Rapture can help. Tracking your Rapture ICD can help. Is it mandatory for everyone? No. But it will help at least some people, and will remain in my guide because of that.

11/23/2011 07:32 PMPosted by Calaris
It's like a Resto Druid complaining that his mastery always drops because he forgets to cast Rejuvenation.


Rejuvenation doesn't proc their Mastery. Regrowth, Healing Touch, Nourish and Swiftmend do.

Also a really bad example.
Edited by Elethia on 11/23/2011 10:20 PM PST
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85 Gnome Priest
12165
Nice guide Ele, sticky requested!
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85 Night Elf Priest
8145
11/24/2011 01:25 AMPosted by Constie
And then you make it worse while still not being consistent across the whole thing.


Work > fixing abbreviation consistency

There's also a lot of ground to cover and abbreviation consistency isn't at the top of my list of priorities.
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20 Night Elf Druid
80
11/23/2011 10:01 PMPosted by Elethia
Bottom line is this: an addon like Ingela's Rapture can help. Tracking your Rapture ICD can help. Is it mandatory for everyone? No. But it will help at least some people, and will remain in my guide because of that.


Except that it really doesn't because of the random nature of breaks. About the only time purposefully delaying your PW:S actually gives you an advantage is when you're dealing with a lump of damage you absolutely know is going to happen (ie: a raid event). But against such events, you simply don't care about Rapture because you're worried about the event.

What you seem to believe you're doing in terms of optimizing your play doesn't actually optimize your play. You're making the classic error of paying attention to big events while ignoring the more substantial sum of small events - think of how dangerous it is to fly vs. how dangerous it is to drive. Losing 2 seconds of Rapture time 100% of time is not worth gaining 10 seconds of Rapture time 10% of the time.
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85 Night Elf Priest
8145
11/24/2011 02:46 AMPosted by Calaris
About the only time purposefully delaying your PW:S


Stop. Seriously.

You're clearly so focused on proving your point that you've repeatedly ignored the fact that I have told you that I do not delay using PW:S for the sake of Rapture.

If a raid event will happen in x seconds, deal y damage--enough to cause the shield to break--and Rapture will happen to be up 1 second before that time, I don't have to delay shielding the tank. Amazingly enough, I can choose to shield someone else just before the event! (Also, it's pretty insulting to say that someone is incapable of acknowledging and reacting to both the Rapture ICD and an imminent raid event at the same time.)

Almost every Firelands encounter has a damage mechanic that is predictable enough to allow for intentional Rapture procs. Obviously not the entire fight, but enough of it to allow a player to consciously react to the ICD.

I also have no idea what you're trying to prove with the flying v driving comment, let alone what you're trying to say in the last sentence.

If you're actually able to provide an argument that doesn't hinge upon a detail that has already been refuted multiple times, please do so. If not, please leave.
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89 Undead Priest
6365
11/23/2011 01:29 AMPosted by Calaris
I don't see how knowing when Rapture is off CD is necessarily a bad thing though. It's much more convenient than "remember to shield the tank every 15 seconds".


How so? You're already tracking Weakened Soul on the tank (or should be). In contrast, the Rapture ICD is just superfluous information that you don't actually need to know.

More importantly, it encourages a bad style of play.

If you're waiting for the ICD to expire before recasting PW:S, the best you can ever do is 12 sec + average break time. This generally means in the 16 - 18 sec range.

The mistake most players make is in presuming that PW:S "instabreaks". But it doesn't. Indeed, it has a fairly low chance of breaking in the 1 - 3 sec range that many players seem to believe is the 'norm'. What this means in practical terms is that you'd actually do better if you recast PW:S a few seconds before the ICD was up - the amount you lose from when it breaks early tends to be smaller than the amount you gain by shaving those seconds off the interval.

But once you're anticipating the delay in breaking even a little bit, you're no longer really 'timing' it because you've run up against Weakened Soul.

Unless, of course, you're increasing the rate at which you can cast PW:S (either through SoS or Weakened Soul). In which case, timing against the ICD starts to become really foolish because the time you lose from anticipating the ICD and getting unlucky is based on the PW:S casting interval.

From a practical standpoint, just mindlessly casting PW:S whenever you can on the tank normally isn't going to perform all that much better than trying to time against ICD. But why would you waste your attention on trying to match the ICD when it just makes you perform slightly worse than simply casting PW:S as often as possible on the tank?


Calaris has an excellent point (especially for a low level druid!) ;-)

Anecdotally, I've noticed my shield uptime is getting longer and longer. Most likely due to; me outgearing the content, tank outgearing content, how hard/fast the boss hits. I've seen shields last over 8 seconds. And sometimes, instant pop. For a recap;

Rapture ICD is 12 seconds.
Weakened Soul debuff is 15 seconds.

This means if your PWS lasts 3 seconds; PWS -> 3seconds before rapture -> Rapture Procs, ICD begins -> @15 seconds your rapture is off ICD, you bubble again.

This is 18 seconds between rapture procs by following the ICD.

If like me, your average bubble lasts a bit longer; 5second bubble + 12 second ICD + 5 second bubble before rapture...

22 Seconds pass between your rapture procs by following the ICD!

Clearly, this is not an optimal secnario for maximizing Rapture procs (if you need the mana regen or not is clearly a different topic).

A much better way of managing this, would be casting PWS while the rapture ICD is up. This is only possible for those of us specc'd into SoS, and actively reducing the WS debuff with Gheal, Heal, or FHeal.

In practice, this would mean a normal (pws + penance + gheal) rotation. Using Gheal twice between rapture procs would reduce the WS debuff to just 7 seconds, allowing you to get closer to your 12 second ICD.

So as you can see, Calaris is right.

If you focus on the WS debuff (instead of Rapture ICD) you gain much more procs.

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89 Undead Priest
6365
Obviously not the entire fight, but enough of it to allow a player to consciously react to the ICD.


I think that's the point. If you're reacting to the ICD, you're not maximizing your procs.

If instead you ignore the ICD, and focus on the WS debuff, you'll gain more rapture procs from perfecting your normal rotation.


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85 Troll Priest
14165
Obviously not the entire fight, but enough of it to allow a player to consciously react to the ICD.


I think that's the point. If you're reacting to the ICD, you're not maximizing your procs.

If instead you ignore the ICD, and focus on the WS debuff, you'll gain more rapture procs from perfecting your normal rotation.


I think you are too missing the point. Nethier Elethia or myself have ever said "only cast PW: Shield for Rapture." And she most definitely never stated this in her post describing Discipline.

Yes, I personally track the ICD on my UI. Does that mean I will postpone a PW: Shield on a tank to trigger it? Heck no. If the tank (or another target) doesn't have WS you can bet they will have a PW: Shield on. There may be a 1-2 second delay as I focus on healing up some AoE damage/another player, but they will have a shield on them regardless of Rapture.
Edited by Ashleycakez on 11/24/2011 9:13 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Priest
8145
I think that's the point. If you're reacting to the ICD, you're not maximizing your procs.

If instead you ignore the ICD, and focus on the WS debuff, you'll gain more rapture procs from perfecting your normal rotation.


Reacting to the ICD means reacting at any point during it. If I have x seconds left and the tank will have WS for any amount of time beyond the ICD, but I know another event is coming very shortly after the ICD pops that will allow me to guarantee a proc I can toss one on some other player, provide at least as much healing as I would have otherwise (as PW:Shield is our best spell for damage that hasn't happened yet) and get a Rapture return.

The average I tend to see on WS when tank healing is around 8-9 seconds. Sometimes as much as 10, sometimes as little as 7. If I can push WS out of the way for the ICD, all the better; if not, there are generally other options. And if there aren't other options, I know that I've consciously done what I can to improve Rapture regen without compromising my healing.
Edited by Elethia on 11/24/2011 5:31 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
It's even more important when your not tank healing. That generally means you are going to want to use the tanks for rapture, but the actual healing you do on them is unimportant. Since the only time you need to keep a shield on the tanks at all times is when you are specifically tank healing, on any other assignment and there is nothing at all wrong with waiting. Rapture tracking means that you can throw a shield on the tank whenever raid damage doesn't proc rapture at an appropriate time, since otherwise you might rarely have a shield on them at all.

Additionally, when the situation is ideal for PoH spam you may not normally even cast enough shields to maximize rapture, since the shields themselves are an HPM/HPS loss opposed to 5-target non-overheal PoH. Keeping track of your rapture ICD during such a period is essential, as you do not want to be missing procs, nor do you want to be shielding any more often then absolutely necessary.
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85 Night Elf Priest
8145
Very true, Sotanaht. Tanks are excellent Rapture fodder when I'm raid healing.
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85 Night Elf Priest
8145
Thanks, Constie. ♥ Hopefully I can get the addon and macro sections up over the weekend, as well as a basic how-to for Holy and Disc healing.
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20 Night Elf Druid
80
11/24/2011 03:16 AMPosted by Elethia
If a raid event will happen in x seconds, deal y damage--enough to cause the shield to break--and Rapture will happen to be up 1 second before that time, I don't have to delay shielding the tank. Amazingly enough, I can choose to shield someone else just before the event! (Also, it's pretty insulting to say that someone is incapable of acknowledging and reacting to both the Rapture ICD and an imminent raid event at the same time.)


You're missing two very important details that showcase the flaw in this approach:
1. If there's a choice in the first place, that means you've already delayed your PW:S cast on the tank because he doesn't have Weakened Soul. If there isn't a choice, then the ICD timer makes no difference.

2. In order to actually benefit from this sort of casting, your tank needs to not have Weakened Soul and you need to avoid casting PW:S on them for 12 secs after the event occurs.

In other words, what your example really shows is that you're doing the equivalent of throwing $100 in a fire and celebrating when you later reclaim an unburned $20 as "free money".

11/24/2011 05:29 PMPosted by Elethia
Reacting to the ICD means reacting at any point during it. If I have x seconds left and the tank will have WS for any amount of time beyond the ICD, but I know another event is coming very shortly after the ICD pops that will allow me to guarantee a proc I can toss one on some other player, provide at least as much healing as I would have otherwise (as PW:Shield is our best spell for damage that hasn't happened yet) and get a Rapture return.


A Rapture return you would have gotten already if you weren't unnecessarily delaying your PW:S casts. And, yes, despite your protests, your example shows that you are clearly delaying your PW:S casts.

I don't know how to say it any more succinctly: you are wrong and you are giving bad advice.

If you really want to study up on this, you might look into the mathematics of digital signal processing and clock signals. There's a strong parallel with what we're talking about.

11/24/2011 09:10 PMPosted by Sotanaht
It's even more important when your not tank healing. That generally means you are going to want to use the tanks for rapture, but the actual healing you do on them is unimportant. Since the only time you need to keep a shield on the tanks at all times is when you are specifically tank healing, on any other assignment and there is nothing at all wrong with waiting. Rapture tracking means that you can throw a shield on the tank whenever raid damage doesn't proc rapture at an appropriate time, since otherwise you might rarely have a shield on them at all.


Not throwing PW:S on your tank every 15 secs while raid healing is essentially the same as your Resto Druid not bothering to Lifebloom your tank. About the only time you wouldn't do this is with specific tank damage events.

But with specific tank damage events, you can't time Rapture anyway since you control neither when the damage event occurs nor when the ICD is ready (unless you're willing to stop casting PW:S entirely 15 - 20 secs before the event occurs - a situation pretty much guaranteed to lose you a Rapture proc).
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