Dragon Soul : T-13 Progression

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85 Draenei Shaman
2105
12/07/2011 10:45 AMPosted by Nightforge
that is exactly what all of u were doing,

Just because you had an emotional response from the replies doesn't mean people were baiting one. It just means you are too defensive to admit that you posted a thread because you were proud of your progression and wanted everyone to see.

12/07/2011 10:45 AMPosted by Nightforge
beat us in progression then come rub it in my face.

When I actually raided (months ago back in Firelands), I didn't just beat you in progression, I dominated you. However, how many threads did I come make on the forums about my guilds progression? None. Why? Because no one cares.


if u think this is stupid, no one have told u to say it is or give reasons why it is.

I'm not expressing my opinion that your thread is useless and redundant. I'm claiming as fact that your thread is useless and redundant, and myself and many others have backed that statement up. By your logic, no one has told you to make a progression thread, so you obviously shouldn't, right?



85 Draenei Shaman
8375
12/07/2011 09:05 AMPosted by Altronix
PS. I used to be pretty terrible though. Crick and Dreams could confirm it.

I could confirm it as well, but I was terrible too. I mean, I still clicked and keyboard turned in vanilla. What a baddie I was!

12/07/2011 10:45 AMPosted by Nightforge
that is exactly what all of u were doing, where in the topic was it to judge if i was glorifying or no, if ur that jealous from a normal spine of deathwing kill go ahead kill it urself beat us in progression then come rub it in my face.

No, they were not trolling you. Judging from your accusatory posts, speaking of jealousy, they were correct in their assessment. Instead of creating a thread that was even somewhat useful for the community, you decided to copy someone did years ago even though it's an outdated and irrelevant practice now.

There are multiple sites that are easily accessible to anyone seeking the information you're attempting to provide. Not only that, but 9/10 times these types of threads are either disregarded or discarded all together by their authors a month or two after creation. They're fluff, and in this case nothing but an attempt to say, "lol sup guys my guild killed this boss today!"

So, in closing, my response to this "gem":

@koho that didnt work try, wowprogressisnotunique.!@#$.com

thisthreadisnotunique.org
85 Night Elf Druid
10805
I had no emotional response, i was defensive yes becuase i was acused that i was showing off my progression which i wasn't, im proud of it yes, i want u to see no, u can see by urself.

this guild wasnt even formed in firelands it was like 1 month before the this content.

Its not useless, nor its useful.
Edited by Nightforge on 12/7/2011 12:06 PM PST
85 Goblin Rogue
6485
By weighing so much of your argument on Alts' lack of a perfect build, you invalidate yourself as you don't recognize how little it matters. This is why Alt never took you seriously.


My argument remains that if you choose to play at a subpar level, you are hurting yourself and your teammates.

Whether you take it seriously or not is irrelevant.

With that said, I'm willing to let it die again, as it's a giant "pissing contest", for lack of a better term.

12/07/2011 09:58 AMPosted by Altronix
If I wanted to I could easily be properly geared for the 2nd part of this game


If "if"s and "but"s were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas. (Couldn't resist)

(that and the vast experience gap which says something in itself)


Playing longer =/= better


Transferring won't help. Many people have tried that trick to find out it's NOT the server!


It's not for me, silly.

All of the active members of the guild are transferring. We like Kael'thas and the people on it, but the PvP scene is too dead for consistent play/grouping. If I want to play with the people I like, I have to transfer with. As such, I'll be transferring.

If/when I do surpass your all-time rating highs, I'll be sure and post back with a small and playful "Nana nana boo boo :P" thread.

;)

I had to emotional response, i was defensive yes becuase i was acused that i was showing off my progression which i wasn't


If you were not showing it off, you wouldn't have made the thread.

Just sayin'
Edited by Sheevah on 12/7/2011 11:49 AM PST
85 Draenei Shaman
2105
12/07/2011 11:42 AMPosted by Sheevah
My argument remains that if you choose to play at a subpar level, you are hurting yourself and your teammates.

Again, you think gearing at a subpar level is the same as playing at a subpar level. Do you really think your play would be affected if you changed every gem in your gear to crit? If so, you would be wrong. No one on this server plays at nearly a high enough level for the small stuff like that to factor in outside of random gibs.

12/07/2011 11:42 AMPosted by Sheevah
Whether you take it seriously or not is irrelevant.

How is it irrelevent? When Koho and I did War/Ret 2s in level 70 gear (at 85), did it make us bad players? If anything, the 1600 teams we beat doing it should have just felt embarrassed. Alt doesn't take pvp seriously, and his gear reflects that.

12/07/2011 11:42 AMPosted by Sheevah
Playing longer =/= better

Playing better for longer while hardly taking arena seriously = playing better.
85 Night Elf Rogue
OOB
14375
12/07/2011 11:58 AMPosted by Percentage
Playing better for longer while hardly taking arena seriously = playing better.

This
85 Goblin Rogue
6485
Again, you think gearing at a subpar level is the same as playing at a subpar level. Do you really think your play would be affected if you changed every gem in your gear to crit? If so, you would be wrong. No one on this server plays at nearly a high enough level for the small stuff like that to factor in outside of random gibs.


They weren't small things. They were large things that would most definitely make a difference.

I'm willing to not walk you through everything if you're willing to drop it.



How is it irrelevent? When Koho and I did War/Ret 2s in level 70 gear (at 85), did it make us bad players? If anything, the 1600 teams we beat doing it should have just felt embarrassed. Alt doesn't take pvp seriously, and his gear reflects that.


My argument was never that Alt is a terrible player, as I've never seen him play. Only that before making it a point to bash someone else in regards to PvP, they should at least be doing it "right". If, during the course of the conversation, I made any statements that read/were viewed as being such, I apologize.





12/07/2011 11:58 AMPosted by Percentage
Playing better for longer while hardly taking arena seriously = playing better.


Fact: I have a higher win percentage in arenas compared to Alt.
Fact: I have a higher win percentage in batllegrounds compared to Alt.
Fact: I have a higher win percentage in duels compared to Alt.
Fact: This toon has existed for less than 1 year, and the current season will be the first season I will be taking even remotely seriously.

I understand the concept of playing for fun. I do not understand the concept of refusing to make minor tweaks that would improve your gameplay a noticeable amount simply because you are too lazy to change it.

However, none of that particularly matters in the grand scheme, as we can all play in whichever manner we find the most pleasurable.

So, I would like to issue a formal apology for trying to force my personal opinions on the matter down the throat of a fellow gamer.


Henceforth, I will not make any more references to that topic, so feel free to get the last word in, if you so desire.
85 Draenei Shaman
2105
In regards to this:

12/07/2011 12:29 PMPosted by Sheevah
My argument was never that Alt is a terrible player, as I've never seen him play. Only that before making it a point to bash someone else in regards to PvP, they should at least be doing it "right".

This is where you went wrong. His gear/spec/build has no bearing on whether or not his argument is solid. This is the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad hominem tu quoque.

Ad hominem tu quoque (literally: "You also") refers to a claim that the source making the argument has spoken or acted in a way inconsistent with the argument. In particular, if Source A criticizes the actions of Source B, a tu quoque response is that Source A has acted in the same way. This argument is fallacious because it does not disprove the argument; if the premise is true then Source A may be a hypocrite, but this does not make the statement less credible from a logical perspective.


12/07/2011 12:29 PMPosted by Sheevah
I understand the concept of playing for fun. I do not understand the concept of refusing to make minor tweaks that would improve your gameplay a noticeable amount simply because you are too lazy to change it.

It's about the size of the reward vs the effort required. Sure, he could spend his time and his gold to make his pvp gear more correct, but if he rarely ever uses it, why waste the resources?
85 Human Paladin
OOB
9085
To keep this thread on topic

Holy s--h--i--t swtor is out next week and fifty a nerd.
85 Draenei Shaman
2105
178 hours, 4 minutes, and counting.
85 Goblin Rogue
6485
This is where you went wrong. His gear/spec/build has no bearing on whether or not his argument is solid. This is the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad hominem tu quoque.


I'm aware of what ad hominem is. :P

The argument in the thread was never a sound one to begin with.

Fatality made a troll comment. Then Alt made a troll comment. Then I came in with a "You've got no room to talk" sort of comment.

From there it was simply a baseless back and forth that can be summed up with:

"Nuh uh" vs. "Uh huh"

There's no room to make sound arguments on who knows what in regards to the gameplay in a fictional universe, which is why it was dubbed a "pissing contest" in the first place. We simply do not have sufficient evidence to reach a reasonable conclusion about the specifics of each player/poster. Instead, we usually rely on anecdotal evidence to support our beliefs on the topic.

For example: You, apparently, know Alt in some fashion. You've either played with him, or at least seen him in action. From this, you can conclude that he, at least, has the general idea of how to play in a competitive fashion.

You do not know me, outside of a couple of light hearted and pointless encounters in Elwynn Forest. You have no reason to believe that I would know what I'm talking about. You, likely, have no idea of the impact my suggested changes could make for his character. You have no actual metric to gauge my knowledge of the game by.

So, you are likely left with the viewpoint of: "I know Alt, and he's pretty good. I don't know Sheevah, and he just seems argumentative." Because of this, you are biased and choose to represent his side of the argument, rather than taking the impartial view to suggest that there is truth in both sides.

Everyone is also yet to refute the idea that any of my suggested changes were actually off base. Instead, everyone is defending the idea that Altronix is not a bad player. In reality, it makes no difference to me if he is an awesome rogue or a terribad rogue, only that there are simple changes available to boost the performance of the character.

It's about the size of the reward vs the effort required. Sure, he could spend his time and his gold to make his pvp gear more correct, but if he rarely ever uses it, why waste the resources?


Is he required to use his resources to make changes if he deems that it is not necessary? No.

Is he able to convince someone that doesn't know him that he is "good" at PvP when there are obvious and simple things that could be addressed to make his character perform at a higher level than it would otherwise? Absolutely not.

Does it make him bad? No.

Does it make his advice/opinions in regards to PvP undergo more scrutiny than it otherwise would? Yes.
Edited by Sheevah on 12/7/2011 1:14 PM PST
90 Human Warrior
11415
12/07/2011 11:01 AMPosted by Hanners
I could confirm it as well, but I was terrible too. I mean, I still clicked and keyboard turned in vanilla. What a baddie I was!


I still do that in Cata, it's almost like I refuse to give up my nuub status.

Oh, and I'm in awe, they actually make www.baconlube.com



90 Human Warrior
11415
12/07/2011 12:55 PMPosted by Percentage
178 hours, 4 minutes, and counting.


Let me know what server you are on when the game goes live.
90 Human Warrior
11415
12/07/2011 01:13 PMPosted by Sheevah
Is he able to convince someone that doesn't know him that he is "good" at PvP when there are obvious and simple things that could be addressed to make his character perform at a higher level than it would otherwise? Absolutely not.


Why would he bother if he doesn't take PVP seriously, and he's not applying to a PVP guild, seems like a waste of energy when he needs to save it all for his wonderful singing voice.
85 Human Mage
13455
12/07/2011 10:17 AMPosted by Nightforge
@captnice yes plz i would love one, write in it "from the smartest person on the planet, captnice"


Thanks for saying I'm smart!


12/07/2011 10:17 AMPosted by Nightforge
trolling for me is when someone diagrees with another person and start runnin his mouth about it left and right where the OP dont care yet u keep going to the first point which in this case here is that the post is not needed


Trolling : A troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.


85 Draenei Shaman
2105
For example: You, apparently, know Alt in some fashion. You've either played with him, or at least seen him in action. From this, you can conclude that he, at least, has the general idea of how to play in a competitive fashion.

You do not know me, outside of a couple of light hearted and pointless encounters in Elwynn Forest. You have no reason to believe that I would know what I'm talking about.

Not true! I have fought you in Tol Barad on many an occasion. From my experiences playing against you, I have no reason to think you are bad.

12/07/2011 01:13 PMPosted by Sheevah
Then I came in with a "You've got no room to talk" sort of comment.

My only dog in this fight is that you used a logical fallacy to discredit Alt as a source of knowledge.

12/07/2011 01:13 PMPosted by Sheevah
Is he able to convince someone that doesn't know him that he is "good" at PvP when there are obvious and simple things that could be addressed to make his character perform at a higher level than it would otherwise? Absolutely not.

He wouldn't be able to convince someone who thinks gear is important that he is a good player. In the same regard, I would have no reason to think you were a good player simply due to the fact that you have gear and it's gemmed/enchanted properly. All that shows is a knowledge of how to check the AJ boards.

Lets follow this logic a bit further. If min/maxing a pvp spec is what validates a player as a skilled and knowledgeable player, how come you haven't been higher rated? I would go so far as to say its due to the fact that Kael'thas lacks numerous decent partners, or that you just haven't really cared to push ratings; not that you are a bad player. It has nothing to do with how well you geared. It's obvious that there is no direct correlation with how "correctly" one is geared and their knowledge of pvp.

12/07/2011 01:13 PMPosted by Sheevah
Does it make his advice/opinions in regards to PvP undergo more scrutiny than it otherwise would? Yes.

It only makes them undergo more scrutiny than it otherwise would to a player who doesn't understand high rated pvp. For example, my warrior is currently gemmed and enchanted for RBG FCing. Would this discredit me as a source of arena knowledge, due to the fact that my gear shows I don't do arenas? No. Does my 2500 3s rating validate me as a source of knowledge? No. In the end, the only thing that matters is the argument. Is it logical? Is it factual? Nothing else about the person making the argument matters from a logical standpoint.

I would probably be done with my essay by now if these forums didn't exist :(.....10 down, 10 to go!
85 Goblin Rogue
6485


Why would he bother if he doesn't take PVP seriously, and he's not applying to a PVP guild, seems like a waste of energy when he needs to save it all for his wonderful singing voice.


I don't know. Perhaps you should ask him why he made it a point to express that he knew more about PvP than someone else would if they played for 5 more years.

As that is when the derailment began.
85 Draenei Shaman
2105
12/07/2011 01:50 PMPosted by Sheevah
I don't know. Perhaps you should ask him why he made it a point to express that he knew more about PvP than someone else would if they played for 5 more years.


Considering that "someone" was Fatality, I wouldn't say it's too rash of a generalization. If you look at Fatalities posting history, he doesn't come off as the smartest fellow :(
85 Goblin Rogue
6485

Not true! I have fought you in Tol Barad on many an occasion. From my experiences playing against you, I have no reason to think you are bad.


Now I feel like a !!@!, 'cause I don't recall seeing you... I'm rarely in TB these days.

>.>

He wouldn't be able to convince someone who thinks gear is important that he is a good player. In the same regard, I would have no reason to think you were a good player simply due to the fact that you have gear and it's gemmed/enchanted properly. All that shows is a knowledge of how to check the AJ boards.


Gearing and speccing ARE important to the success rate in a PvP environment.

Anyone can argue that gearing and speccing are more important to PvE than PvP, due to the varying degrees of which solid execution of mechanics and abilities for each facet of the game. I can be geared/specced off the same amount for PvE that he was for PvP and still succeed in the same capacity that he does for PvP if I play well enough. What this means, however, is that I am forced to work harder for the same result. This is known as playing in an efficient manner.

As I said, we can debate the relative importance to either facet of the game and reach an agreement to (dis)agree, but due to the relativism of wrongness, there will always be options that are viewed as being more "right" than another.

My only dog in this fight is that you used a logical fallacy to discredit Alt as a source of knowledge.


This is where the misunderstanding must be.

I wasn't attempting to discredit him, but perhaps it came to that after a few posts.

My original post was only the advisement that he should fix the things that are viewed as "wrong" before commenting on someone else, and not that "Wrong enchant on X piece = you're wrong on the topic at hand".

I seem to have been viewing it all through rose colored glasses, and now feel much like a jackass for not realizing how my messages came across.

My apologies, and I'll be bowing out of the thread now.

*slowly waddles off*
Edited by Sheevah on 12/7/2011 2:09 PM PST
85 Night Elf Rogue
OOB
14375

Fact: I have a higher win percentage in arenas compared to Alt.
Fact: I have a higher win percentage in batllegrounds compared to Alt.
Fact: I have a higher win percentage in duels compared to Alt.
Fact: This toon has existed for less than 1 year, and the current season will be the first season I will be taking even remotely seriously.

Let me address these point by point and tell you everything that is wrong with your statements...

1. What were we arguing about in the first place? Did you also not read that 99% of all arena I've done for the past two expansions were to get !@#$ty geared players (KOHO and your %^-*ty greens geared alts) some points. I think 60% win ratios when facing people at 15-1800 range is pretty fine. And just to be clear if we took sub 2k ratios I'm sure I'd have a MUCH higher win % than I currently do.

2. Addressed by many statistics and graphs done by other sources. Horde wins more BG's than alliance. Yet even with that ratio going against me I have a near 60% win ratio. Get on my level! It just means that I turn the tide when participating in BG's to the alliance favor where it usually it is against them. Yeah go on brush my shoulders of.

3. What the fudge? Seriously? Do you know how many duels used to be done between people in vanilla and BC where all you did was just sit and tried to test high crits with people? !@#$ I think Crick and I may have done hundreds just doing that to see how fast we could bring someone down. This is like the wierdest and worst argument ever. By this same argument I am a better pvp player than Koho (2 time glad). I literally own fifty (cause I beat them in a duel). Etc.

And lastly, if you yourself aren't taking something serious then why do you do so much research on it? Why do you waste the time on something so trivial to you? I know I don't. I took about an hour doing a spec when expansion first came out, since then I just copied the same thing every time I had to re spec. If I weren't raiding I might make sure my PvP items and spec are top notch, but there's no point because I'm not playing with glads trying to get 2400 or something.

The point remains with something that was already brought up, and that is that you do not have to be optimally geared to play at a high level. It only matters in duelist vs. glad matches otherwise it's really a waste of time unless someone severely gimps themselves. Something which I do not do.
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