Dragon Soul : T-13 Progression


100 Worgen Rogue
Simes is my bank alt btw.
100 Worgen Rogue
Just because I'm killing a little time I'll respond to a couple more things said.

Enjoy what you do but quit trying to compare it to something in which you have no current frame of reference to pull from.

I said^
You saidv Thanks for making my point.
My entire raiding experience before the shared lockout thing was focused on 25 mans

Chig do you even look at the logs? we don't have a rogue in our team so I can't tell you to compare but look at rogues in other 10man guilds throughout the world and see that they are pulling the same numbers that you are unless they pull more due to the gear factor.

About the thing you said that 10mans need less dps/hps I will tell you as I told Fabled, both difficulties require you to squeeze the absolute best of your charecter and since we get the same ilvl gear from both we are bound to pull the same numbers.

I know how to use math and a touch of logic to come to a conclusion. If you're capable of pulling the same numbers in a ten man but are REQUIRED to pull more in 25 man in order to kill a boss, which is harder?

02/08/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Nightforge
in 25 mans the chance of wasted loot is slim to none

Ridiculous. How many shammy belts or Int plate does a raid need? Or tanking gear? How much gear do we end up sending to offspec or sharding? A whole lot, definitely NOT slim to none.

02/08/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Nightforge
Look me straight in the eye and tell me that you don't wish/want to replace someone in your 25 group for under-performing and costing you a few kills that should have been on farm by now, I know that we won't replace anyone from our group.

On this final point, I haven't raided with these guys long enough yet to single out anyone here I would replace but I do know from apps I read and rejected while an officer in Kinsmen that there are a couple on your roster I would have a hard time raiding with from both a min/max perspective and a lack of ability to communicate above a third grade level perspective. Just sayin'.

I'm not saying 10 mans are easy, I'm saying they're easier. From a logistical, organizational, and even a pure mathematical perspective, 10's are easier. I do apologize that Blizzard tricked you into thinking otherwise and I'm not belittling the effort you've put in or your accomplishments but please quit deluding yourself into thinking that what your doing is as difficult as what we're doing.
85 Human Paladin
02/08/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Koho
Everyone should calm down. 10man easier than 25man and 25man easier than duels

If we had kids, it would be a paladin.

Ily Koho.
85 Night Elf Rogue
Ok, I hear reports of people loosing brain cells from reading your posts Nightforge so I came to put the debate to rest.

If OOB took 10 people and did 10 mans, we'd be 7/8 within 2 to 3 weeks. But we have more important things than that to worry about, and that is providing a raiding environment for all of our raiders, not 10. I am not just speculating, I am GUARANTEEING YOU THAT.

Try brining 6 melee to Yosh next time and spreading out during green phase to see what is easier logistically (lets not even talk about numbers, which were proven by mathematics to be in favor of 10 mans).

Yes, duels are hard, except when it's against you. Then it's easy. Getdown!
85 Night Elf Druid

I looked at the oldest logs I could get for Blood Legion and Crimson Blade the first guilds who killed Ultraxion on 25 and 10, here is what I did :

I added the dps of the 18 DPSers and devided them by 18 i got 41.5something the tanks did together 28K dps I left them out of the equation though.
I added the dps of the 6 DPSers, and added the extra dps that the tanks did over the 25man kill which was about 23.7K more, then devided that total by 6 and got 40.7K.
I'm not sure if I did the math right but what I also noticed is that the 25man fight lasted for 45secs more.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-64ijhccs2bwmunui/sum/damageDone/?s=8796&e=9157 (BL)

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/vf9tzete0p2z2ucw/sum/damageDone/?s=12369&e=12684 (CB)

I have totaly missunderstood you there about the current frame thing, I did progress through normal modes in T11 and did 3 heroics in 25 though only managed to be on the kill of 1 of them (Halfus).

I guess I didn't come out right about the loot thing wasted loot is the one that gets DE'ed, we have the same problem that you are talking about too with the same loot dropping everytime and no one needs not even for Off set, not to mention the few agi axes and daggers from Madness and that agi mace from heroic Ultraxion.

I absolutely did not and will not say that 25's are easy as well as I will not say that they are harder than 10 mans, I want you to stop deluding yourself that 10mans are faceroll.

On which roster are you talking about? Our current roster? You must be mistaken because we don't have anyone with the things you said in them.


I laughed my !@# off when I read the guarantee thing, it is really funny of how much you underestimate the challenge of 10man. You know that spreading 4 yards from the next person so f*ckin impossible right. If you can't take 3 steps away from the next player you sir deserve to die from that green acid.

What did you feel so good because you have so many adds to aoe to see big numbers at the end of the fight? I'm really starting to feel dum everytime I read a post from you Altronix please spare me with your smartassiness I have better $%^- to do share a PoV with Chig who is far more reasonable than any of the others who flamed this thread.
100 Worgen Rogue
02/09/2012 04:51 AMPosted by Nightforge
I absolutely did not and will not say that 25's are easy as well as I will not say that they are harder than 10 mans, I want you to stop deluding yourself that 10mans are faceroll.

You show me where I said 10-mans were faceroll? I was VERY clear.

I'm not saying 10 mans are easy, I'm saying they're easier

Ten mans have their challenges but you insist on saying they are the same difficulty as 25 mans and there is just NO way that's true. 25's you need more raiders putting out more damage and healing per raider, on what planet is that equal?

If you want to see proof: http://worldoflogs.com/zones/Dragon_Soul/Ultraxion/

Compare the dps and hps it took to get kills and divide that by the number of raiders for each fight. Or look at the ratio of wipes to kills in 10 versus 25. There is NO argument, 25's require more throughput from more players, they ARE more difficult.

Edit: because spelling is hard.
Edited by Chigurh on 2/9/2012 5:30 AM PST
90 Human Warrior
I've run both 10's and 25's, both are hard in heroic.

Alt's point for melee is very valid. Think of it this way, is it easier to stay in melee range of a boss, and to be 4-5 yards away from 1 other melee?... or is it easier to spread out with 6 melee and still be in range of the boss to maintain good DPS uptime, and still have room to move in an emergency?

IMO, spread out fights are one of the toughest obstacles to overcome in 25 compared to 10's. Just think of H Beal'roc when have the raid has Torment, that is a cluster fudge, whereas 10 mans you are avoiding like 3 or 4 players, 25 you have to avoid like 12-16 players without coming in range and giving everyone AIDS.

Meteors on Rag are also a pain, less room to kite because 25 people take up more space, and double the meteors to deal with.

Also interrupt rotation fights come to mind as a pain in the butt for 25 mans that 10 mans don't have to put up with. 10 man fights get to interrupt, but typically the spell only occurs once every 10-12 seconds in 10 man, so one person can just hit interrupt off of cooldown. In 25 mans, the spells cast come every 5-6 seconds, so 2 people have to work together in order to not miss a spell, more chance for something to go wrong. Not a huge deal if those people can stay coordinated, but it's an extra burden that 10's don't have to deal with.

This doesn't apply to all fights, as Nef is definitely tougher on 10 mans with the kiting requirement since it's more likely that a 25 will have a 3rd off tank spec'd person. Even with 25's requiring 6 interuptors, Nef is still harder on 10 mans, that's just the way it is based on my personal opinion. DS does seem to more heavily penalize 25 man raid sizes though, but not to an order of magnitude that makes one easy and the other hard.

Like I've said, I've done them both, I find 10's easier in DS, but I would never call them faceroll, and you certainly didn't faceroll your way to 6/8... You're also currently the best ranked 10 man on the server, while OOB is currently the best ranked 25 man. IMO it's not fair for anyone in either group size to get in a pissing match about which guild is really better as there isn't a straight up comparison that can be done between them, nor does it really matter that much. Personal experience tells me that the 25 mans are harder, and if everyone were on the same playing field (IE same size raids) the progress between the guilds would be much closer than it currently is.

Difficulty is not the only reason that some 25 man guilds have suffered. A lot of 25 mans lost players to 10 man groups since they were 10's were popping up everywhere with the promise of getting raiders into the main group, and seeing better odds at getting shinnies. Some 25 mans would lose their entire core, because as Forge stated, some people felt they were carrying the rest of the guild, so downsized the weaker raid members right out of the raiding guild. With so many successful 10 man groups popping up, some of the 25 man groups started to see less and less quality apps, so were often in a position where they would have to take raiders on as pet projects to see if they could improve them enough to fit into the group. Hopefully the 25 mans can overcome this, I see there are now 3 decent 25 mans on this server and I hope to see more of them soon, since I feel that the 25 man groups add to the grandeur and scope of the raiding game.

Anyhow, I'm rambling too much, I'll let some other people ramble, then I might ramble back at them just for the sake of hearing myself ramble. Ramble on fellow ramblers.
85 Night Elf Druid
You're right Ron I can imagine Baeleroc being a huge pain in butt because it is really tough to handle that debuff, same with Ragnaros but the Yor'sahj fight is not as bad as Baeleroc for melee its just being on your toe same as the rest of the fights, I'm not saying its easy but its not hard to the point that someone should complain about it being tough.

About the interupts thing when we were progressing in FL sometimes my group had only 1 interupter and I had to bring the bird to the add and interupt, and when we were doing heroic halfus on 25 manwe just had a rotation for interupts and one of the mages did the one after the stun. I can't say anything about heroics from T11 because my experience in that field is so low to make me laugh at myself.

IMO the 25's face problems now because as you said most of the quality players are doing 10mans and they are left with the leftover raiders (not all of them ofcourse) which can't get the required numbers/mechanics and have to be carried by the real raiders in that 25man group which make it 10 times harder to down a boss than it should whereas if they had 25 quality raiders then they will see the diffrence in the difficulty, thats why I never belittled the progression that they did.

Chig you are right heroic Ultraxion requires a few more DPS from the 25's raider I did the math looked at the average raid dps and devided by 20 and 8 got 38.2K and 32K respectively which makes no sense to me since we had our DPS on the kill doing 37K and we got a few seconds before the enrage timer but oh well.

I have also looked on Warlord Zon'ozz and did the math their too and got 42.3K(25) and 44.1K (10) which is also too low since you need to be avereging 46K on the fight on our first kill.
90 Human Warrior
I haven't try Zon'ozz in heroic 25 (yet, should be next week), but for some reason that fight seemed like it might actually be tougher on 10 man since it has such a high burst requirement for the flails, and really penalizes healers for it. If you have a lot of DOT classes in your 10 man that seems like you could be banging your head. With the 25 man you are almost guaranteed to have a few bursty classes that would help with that.

Anyhow, both sizes have their hardships, as is seen by no one being at 8/8 on this server. If Kael'thas had a group that went 8/8 in the first month to a month and a half, I would start thinking one of the group sizes was under tuned, but as it stands we're all still trying to finish up the XPac and progress, hence we are still having fun instead of twiddling our thumbs waiting for an XPac to drop.

I still think we should put together either an alt super group for the weekends, or a previous tier achievement group to have a little fun :)

100 Worgen Rogue
What you are failing to see on the Ultraxion fight is even with doing more DPS it takes longer for a 25 man group to kill the boss. If you take the numbers and average them to what would be required to actually kill the boss(85 million in 6 minutes for 10's, or 276 million for 25) you'll see what the real disparity is. This time for more fairness I'll assume each tank does 15k so we can see how much dps is actually required from just the damage dealers to beat the enrage.

To show my work:

10 man(2 tank, 2 heal, 6 dps): ((85000000-((2*15000)360))/6)/360=34351k per dps'er
25 man(2 tank, 5 heal, 18 dps): ((276000000-((2*15000)360))/18)/360=40926k per dps'er

40926-34351=6575 less dps per raider in a 10 man. 16% LESS dps per dps'er in order to successfully kill the boss. So basically to require the same dps throughput from your raiders as a 25 man raid team you would essentially need to bench one and nine man the encounter.

You mentioned Zon'ozz: This boss is a little harder to show hard numbers because the total damage needed to defeat the encounter can vary because of adds which will be affected by the number of black phases you use to kill the boss and I don't feel like looking up how many adds there are in 10vs25 and all of their healths. But this is also a boss that has so many moving parts that the chance of mistakes goes up dramatically compared to a fight like Ultraxion and that is massively more true in a 25 man.

You keep saying that 25's are forced to carry people. I'll give you that in normal modes but heroic it is simply not true. The numbers are just too tight. It's simple math. Sure, some people perform better than others but if someone is flat out not carrying their weight or dying way more than is acceptable to avoidable mechanics they will be replaced because the raid simply needs to average X dps/hps over the length of the encounter and even one person dead or even deadweight will crush that average. This tier was the most faceroll normal mode raid I've ever seen(that include ToC), heroic on the other hand is quite demanding and requires a full raid team to be on the same page.
90 Human Warrior
Super PUG time : Saturday 8 Server, repeating for 3 to 4 weeks.

This thread of pure epic, strange as it may be has actually attracted more then it's fair share of excellent raiders willing to put lots of time and effort into not only "Debating" their different points of view, but just reading this monstrosity in the first place.

With this very same beastly effort to tackle this Heroic WoW forum post, we should redirect all this rage/mana/runes/energy/focus, and maybe even a little smagma into putting forth the best alt/PUG run this server has ever seen.

What I propose, and I've proposed it earlier in this thread with very little details is that we put together a serious 25 man with either alts, or non-saved mains to tackle some heroics and see if we can come together and gel to down some baddies, or tackle some of the achievements that people don't currently have. I'm not talking about the easy achievements either, think Heroic Rag, or Heroic Sinestra... or even the tier 11-13 Glory to the whatever the fudge.

This won't be your "Let just do H Morchok group, then puss out and do the rest on normal", or one person making everyone wait while he roasts his last of 50 iron drawfs :S. But something useful and fun for everyone. I'm not looking to pick up the people that have the biggest mouths but nothing to back it up either. There are enough people on this thread alone that have lots of heroic experience and could play well on any toon. If we could talk to some of the core members of Assimilation, OOB, Kinsmen, Profit, Ascension (sorry if I left any pro-styles out) and put together a well oiled team of misfits, I think it would be interesting to see what we could do as a group for let’s say 3-4 weekends in a row like we did at the end of Wrath to get the Immortal achievement.

Remember, it wasn't just one guild that got the Immortal achievement, but a group of misfit PUG’er all-stars just looking to have fun on Sunday nights that got this, and it turned out it was the only run on this server that got this title. The only other people on this server that have it were server transfers.

So, what I’m going to do so I stop derailing this thread (which wouldn’t be a bad thing) is start a new thread for a sign up. It’ll be a 25 man sign up, and if people could also sign up for some leadership roles as well that would be appreciated. By leadership I mean, who can be the healing coordinator, raid leader, the person that helps me recruit/invite to the run, someone that can manage the loot … etc.

I’ll make sure to post all info in this thread, and I’ll get it all done when I get home from work tonight, likely before 7 server time tonight.

I know we all disagree on a bunch of stuff in this post/thread, but a lot of the people in this thread are people that I’ve genuinely had a lot of fun with PUG’ing in the past, so let’s put this too bed and down some !@#$ none of us have downed yet in their guilds. Bring your own beer and booobies, yay booobies. Nalaraa will slap me for that last part, however Aelric will hug me with his new Legendary daggers... grats bud :P
85 Night Elf Druid
For Zon'ozz we did 3 ranged covering one side with its 3 eyes and 2 flails if I remember correctly, 1 ranged killing an eye by himself and 1 melee killing flail by himself and tank 1 melee killing the claw in 25 I think you get 2 more eyes and 3 more flails but not 100% sure, and the healers had to spread out with the dps and just randomly throwing a heal on the tank and he have to manage his survivabilities.

The raid isn't under-tuned for any size atm in the avarage to good raider, but its too easy for those who cleared it in the first couple of weeks, I want to finish already because there is so many games to play :D.

Chig the 16% that you are talking about is not hard to be done since on our last kill the DPS was pulling those numbers and we are missing 4% spell power increase from either a lock or shammy and a 4% more physical damage done to the boss from either a warrior or rogue if I'm not mistaken, but in all honesty I was kind of disappointed with this fight when we killed it in 7 attempts and I heard it was the gear check fight but we could have out-geared it idk, it shouldn't have died this easy.

For Zon'ozz you can do 3 black phases and on the forth you have to burn the boss or you he will enrage, if you do 7-5-5 but if you do more or less it depends, and yes the normal modes are very easy but the heroics are a real challenge for either size of the raid.

What I'm saying is that guilds who are having serious issues with progression on the heroic modes must be suffering because of lack of performance from a raider and most of the time you can't replace him because no one is or you have no one else better thats all I'm saying.

Ron just hit me up if you get something going but not sunday though :P (just read your post and ya it takes me 35 mins to post cuz im at work and on a !@#$ty laptop)
Edited by Nightforge on 2/9/2012 12:49 PM PST
100 Worgen Rogue
02/09/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Nightforge
Chig the 16% that you are talking about is not hard to be done since on our last kill the DPS was pulling those numbers and we are missing 4% spell power increase from either a lock or shammy and a 4% more physical damage done to the boss from either a warrior or rogue if I'm not mistaken, but in all honesty I was kind of disappointed with this fight when we killed it in 7 attempts and I heard it was the gear check fight but we could have out-geared it idk, it shouldn't have died this easy.

You mention two things that even if they were exact percentage to damage boosts(which they're not) would only account for half, but guess what, you have BOTH of those buffs!! The only Buff you're missing in your raid was the 3% damage increase which you could get with either your mage or hunter switching specs. I'm stunned an accomplished raider such as yourself didn't know that :P.

You have an almost perfect raid comp and need wwaayy less throughput, why do you think 25 man raiders get annoyed when you claim you're doing something AS difficult as them?

pst...Your DK provides the physical debuff and your mage is supposed to provide the spell power buff( I'd hate to tell one of your skilled raiders what to do but you might want to remind him to do it, just because it's called Arcane Brilliance doesn't mean ONLY an Arcane Mage can use it), just trying to help because that's the kind of guy I am, ask around :)
90 Human Warrior

Dedicated thread for the Super PUG :)
100 Human Paladin
So I heard there's a Super PUG!
85 Night Elf Druid
Ok the physical dmg buff on the boss is provided by a frost DK ? That is news to me because I though that only warriors (arms as far as I know) and rogues (don't know what spec) put that debuff on the boss. and I just looked at his spec and apparently I am wrong my bad.

If your talkin about demonic pact our warlock is not Demonology on a regular bases she is affliction, and our mage is arcane most of the fights so he gives the 3% more dmg and arcane brilliance gives 6% spell power while demonic pact and totem of wrath give 10% more spell power that is why I said 4% more spell power missing not 10% :)
100 Worgen Rogue
90 Draenei Shaman
10 vs 25 difficulty threads make my head hurt, and are also full of win <3

easy hard easy hard who cares its a game.
85 Night Elf Druid
02/09/2012 03:00 PMPosted by Chigurh
that is exactly what I did when I read the frost talents
90 Human Warrior
02/09/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Gerolan
So I heard there's a Super PUG!

Ya, it's Sthuper (with biggest lysp possible)
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